Kerbfleet: A Jool Odyssey-CHAPTER 22 pg 2: Yet >another< narrative device!

[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

The tossing out the bin mechanic is gone in favor of just unlocking everything.  And yes, you can get a net increase due to conservation of mass (1l of mulch and 0.25l of fertilizer = 1.25l of supplies).

Conservation of mass is not applicable here because not all the fertilizer goes into making supplies.  A lot of it is binder, filler, and such.  You get conservation of mass of the ship as a whole, but not all of the mass conserved is useful for the life support system.  I'm sad to see this.  Well, so much for USI-LS.  I won't be using it anymore.

I've noticed this sort of thing with your mods.  You come out saying you wants to make something simple, basic, intuitive, abstract, etc., and it usually is for at least a couple weeks.  But  then you can't resist adding complexity, varying efficiency factors based on Kod-only-knows-what, and eventually the thing becomes not only unusable but even indescribable and undocumentable.  This is what chased me from MKS, which initially was easy to understand and use, to MKS-Lite.  Now USI-LS seems to be going the same way.  And as it does so, the whole purpose of MKS-Lite goes with it.

So when the smoke clears from the Supernova of 1.1, life support will be off my menu.  None of the existing ones are acceptable, realistic (especially TAC which is based on humans, not Kerbals), or even comprehensible, and it's really not worth the trouble anyway.  Just roleplay it and you'll be fine.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Mister Dilsby]

3 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

 Well, so much for USI-LS.  I won't be using it anymore.

I'm not going to go that far, but when I installed USI-LS on a second computer i did notice that the large greenhouse has been changed significantly. Looks like just one of those is enough for the whole crew--actually, more than enough--and also it only runs in agroponics mode now, not recycling. So, looks like I have to do the calcs all over again, but the good news is I need fewer parts and less power. And lots more fertilizer! Or I just change the configs. Also noting that there's a whole "homesickness" thing now based on the habitability of the ship and how many months they've been away from home; I will probably turn that off rather than try to figure out how long a kerbal month is. (And it should be 'munth')  

The important thing is I want to manage supplies and power, and this mod lets me do that plus adds some cool-looking parts. So anyway, back to the shipyards--and it looks like a pair of the 0.125m fission reactors will provide way more power than I need, mining included.

[RoverDude]

3 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Conservation of mass is not applicable here because not all the fertilizer goes into making supplies.  A lot of it is binder, filler, and such.  You get conservation of mass of the ship as a whole, but not all of the mass conserved is useful for the life support system.  I'm sad to see this.  Well, so much for USI-LS.  I won't be using it anymore.

I've noticed this sort of thing with your mods.  You come out saying you wants to make something simple, basic, intuitive, abstract, etc., and it usually is for at least a couple weeks.  But  then you can't resist adding complexity, varying efficiency factors based on Kod-only-knows-what, and eventually the thing becomes not only unusable but even indescribable and undocumentable.  This is what chased me from MKS, which initially was easy to understand and use, to MKS-Lite.  Now USI-LS seems to be going the same way.  And as it does so, the whole purpose of MKS-Lite goes with it.

So when the smoke clears from the Supernova of 1.1, life support will be off my menu.  None of the existing ones are acceptable, realistic (especially TAC which is based on humans, not Kerbals), or even comprehensible, and it's really not worth the trouble anyway.  Just roleplay it and you'll be fine.

Well that's a bit of hyperbole

And yes, ship conservation of mass.  I throw stuff into the mix, I get the same mass out - I don't bother modeling soil enrichment, filtration systems, etc. - but I do make sure that your ship does not gain or lose mass.   Tho moot point since you will not be using life support.

Tho I would hope the next time you take such a personal offense to how I make mods, that you have the common courtesy to discuss it in private vs. doing a personal attack/rant on the forums, because that's pretty uncool.

[ExplorerKlatt]

24 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

I'm not going to go that far, but when I installed USI-LS on a second computer i did notice that the large greenhouse has been changed significantly. Looks like just one of those is enough for the whole crew--actually, more than enough--and also it only runs in agroponics mode now, not recycling. So, looks like I have to do the calcs all over again, but the good news is I need fewer parts and less power. And lots more fertilizer! Or I just change the configs. Also noting that there's a whole "homesickness" thing now based on the habitability of the ship and how many months they've been away from home; I will probably turn that off rather than try to figure out how long a kerbal month is. (And it should be 'munth')  

The important thing is I want to manage supplies and power, and this mod lets me do that plus adds some cool-looking parts. So anyway, back to the shipyards--and it looks like a pair of the 0.125m fission reactors will provide way more power than I need, mining included.

In the latest update to USI-LS, the Mobile Lab functions as a recycler. 

[RoverDude]

More info   The reason for the USI-LS tweaks was because there were too many (and usually conflicting) ways to make supplies.  So the goal was to consolidate this into, at max, two methods (and one of those is only for UKS) with no resource conflicts, no competing over resources, and no trying to decide which method is better.  So it's actually a lot of streamlining, etc.

And yep - in stock you do in fact get a recycler.  Or, just turn them off and tweak the consumption rate to something you like.  As always, pretty much everything can be turned off.  The rates just default now to something more akin to a gemini mission, but (if enabled) there are stock analogues for each new mechanic.  Or leave them off, either is fine

[Araym]

On 30/1/2016 at 5:23 AM, Kuzzter said:

Exactly--I just want something simple, right now I'm much more into the rocket stuff than the interweb of resource stuff. Though yeah, I can see myself building bases all over the place once I finish the grand exploration. That could be lots of fun--have to deal with the whole Kerbulan problem first, but yeah, fun    

I'm almost in the same thing about you: I liked a "simple" life support, and sadly the "old" USI Life support (up to 0.2.1) was between the "unarmfull" SNACKS and the more complex/realistic TAC. Later versions from 0.3 onward are not my stile (I'll prefer then to NOT have such a bother and then play only "rockets", or go for TAC, if I have to be busy with mutliple resources)

I then made "my tweaks" to that version and stopped to add a pletora of other resources, and made a "Recycler" based on any labs I have (Not only stock ones, but some I have from other mods, like the Mk2Expansion, some Tantares part that has a lab and a "modded one" that is a stock 6x Kerbal lab - with 6x seat inside) in a way that if I have:

1. Ore
2. EC (I have some Nuclear Reactors that need nuclear fuels, if I'm planning big colonies, that is the only resource not available, if not shipped from Kerbin)
3. Mulch

it gives me Fertilizer to run a "close cicle" with the BigGreenHouse (if enough of them are added)

This is the MM patch I made, but "numbers" are still a work in progress:

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleScienceLab],#CrewCapacity[>0]]:FINAL
{
		MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleResourceConverter
		ConverterName = Recycler
		StartActionName = Start Recycler
		StopActionName = Stop Recycler

		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Mulch
			Ratio = 0.00005
			@Ratio *= #$/CrewCapacity$
		}
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Ore
			Ratio = 0.05
			@Ratio *= #$/CrewCapacity$
		}
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = ElectricCharge
			Ratio = 3
			@Ratio *= #$/CrewCapacity$
		}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Fertilizer
			Ratio =  0.00001
			@Ratio *= #$/CrewCapacity$
			DumpExcess = False
		}
}

With this MM, any labs will recycle 1 Kerbal's produced Mulch in the needed proportion to have 1 Kerbal's Fertilizer ratio needed by the Big Green House, if Ore provided...

... the patch itself calculates automatically how much big is the lab (misured by the crew number it could have inside) to caluclate its needed resources (so multiple seats labs produce more fertilizer, but needs more EC and mulch).

I set just a number of Ore roughly based on "dirt" used by more later USI-LS conversion, to be "high" enough to make it profitable only when I have Ore to spare. (A colony set in an good Ore concentration landing spot... a ship that have a big Ore tank to bring itself the needed supply of it...)

... that could be balanced out by your needs. I worked out that (setting by USI-LS Setting files and greenhouse modifications):

• a Kerbal eats 0.00005/s supplies, producing 0.00005/s Mulch (as up to USI-LS v0.2.1 rate)
• a "small" GreenHouse use 0.0001/s Mulch+6 EC to feed the 0.00005/s x 1 Kerbal (double amount of Mulch produced by a Kerbal to feed it... so eventually it cannot work anymore when "mulch" is not available)
• a JumboGreenHouse use 0.0002/s Mulch+12 EC x 0.0001/s Supplies in "normal mode" (like a 2x small greenhouse- feeding 2 Kerbals, but ending to consume all the Mulch available) or 0.0002/s Mulch+0.00004/s Fertilizer+12 EC in "Agrophonics mode" to produce 0.0002/s Supplies (to feed 4x Kerbals)... NOTE: as in USI-LS v.0.2.1, they are 2 separated converter, so using BOTH it doubles the EC needed, and a JumboGreenHouse produce up to 6x Kerbal supplies rate: bug/feature that could work in an Electric rich colony/ship, to avoid cluttering/lower part amount, as I have a crappy pc, but at the cost to use too much Mulch than actually produced by 6x Kerbals...

adding labs (as patched above) a 4x Kerbal colony/ship could also use Mulch+Ore to replenish fertilizer and run in a "closed cycle" if:

• it has any labs combo equivalent to 2x stock labs to produce fertilizer
• it has an Ore supply to feed the labs above at a 0.2 units x second (directly drilled or from an Ore tank)
• it has a Jumbo GreenGouse runned only in "Agrophonic mode" (not using the "simple greenhouse" converter eve if available)
• it has the Mulch produced by the above mentioned 4x Kerbal
• it has 24 unit x second of EC (12 x the Jumbo Green House, 12x the 2 stock labs - 4 seats total)

Probably not a realistic proportion, but it's good for my needs.

... as I always said, I like to "mod myself" the mods that I download, and probably I'll just modify it finally making a "BigGreenHouse" (a copy of the "JumboGreenHouse") to separate the 2x Kerbal converter not using the Fertilizer from a "new" JumboGreenHouse that it works only in "agrophonic mode" (maybe the last in a 3.75m dimension, to add diversity) to feed 4x Kerbal if used with fertilizer
(or finally go like in the later USI-LS version, all and only in agrophonic mode, to make sens to have a fertilizer supply in any colony, in a form of small-1.25m, big-2.5m and jumbo-3.75m, for 1x, 2x, 4x kerbals )

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Araym

[Mister Dilsby]

6 hours ago, RoverDude said:

And yep - in stock you do in fact get a recycler.  

I had heard that, but when i installed the new version the MPL didn't seem to change--that is, it didnt' have a 'greenhouse' function in the VAB and I didn't find a config file with recycling parameters for it. Is this hidden? Wondering how many units of mulch go to how many units of supplies in the MPL.

[Geschosskopf]

11 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Tho I would hope the next time you take such a personal offense to how I make mods, that you have the common courtesy to discuss it in private vs. doing a personal attack/rant on the forums, because that's pretty uncool.

Yeah, that was pretty wrong of me.  Sorry.

[Mister Dilsby]

This has been a really great discussion, thanks @RoverDude, @Geschosskopf, @Araym and anyone else I might have missed for helping me out  

So it looks like I'll have to correct Bill's calcs in light of the new parts and configs. I did some tests and realized that things get complicated when you have agroponics and recycling going on at the same time. Rather than try to sort it out on paper or in Excel, I hyperedited this thing into orbit:

12 kerbals aboard, 2 large agroponics greenhouses, 3 labs (which should be enough to recycle for 15 kerbs, right?) a huge full tank of fertilizer, a huge empty tank for mulch, and an oversized nuclear reactor. You see the time warp is one notch below maximum, because on maximum the system does not seem to consume any fertilizer or make any mulch at all.

426 days (one Kerbal year later) here's how it all looks. Note that I turned off the "habitation" effects, so no one got homesick. 

How quickly a year passes! So, looks like my 12 kerbs made 3463 mulch and consumed 3463 fertilizer. No net supplies were used. Note that if they were just consuming supplies with no recycling or agroponics, they should have eaten 16.2 supplies/kerb * 12 kerbs *426 days = 82,414 supplies and deposited exactly that much mulch. So yeah, I think this is the way to go. 

I could see carrying two labs on the ship but not three... so I will either bump the max kerbs/lab value up to 6 (it's 5, if I understand this right) or just go with two and accept lower efficiency. I'll be sure to test this rig again with one fewer lab, don't worry--but either way, it looks like the KSS [REDACTED] will have to carry about 40,000 units of fertilizer and have empty tanks for 40,000 units of mulch (as I did not see a "dump mulch" function anywhere.) to hit its 10 year endurance target.

@RoverDude, if this seems correct to you I'd be happy to cross-post the study on your USI-LS thread. It might be of interest to others trying to figure it all out.  

 

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Yeah, that was pretty wrong of me.  Sorry.

No worries, and thanks

15 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

This has been a really great discussion, thanks @RoverDude, @Geschosskopf, @Araym and anyone else I might have missed for helping me out  

So it looks like I'll have to correct Bill's calcs in light of the new parts and configs. I did some tests and realized that things get complicated when you have agroponics and recycling going on at the same time. Rather than try to sort it out on paper or in Excel, I hyperedited this thing into orbit:

12 kerbals aboard, 2 large agroponics greenhouses, 3 labs (which should be enough to recycle for 15 kerbs, right?) a huge full tank of fertilizer, a huge empty tank for mulch, and an oversized nuclear reactor. You see the time warp is one notch below maximum, because on maximum the system does not seem to consume any fertilizer or make any mulch at all.

426 days (one Kerbal year later) here's how it all looks. Note that I turned off the "habitation" effects, so no one got homesick. 

How quickly a year passes! So, looks like my 12 kerbs made 3463 mulch and consumed 3463 fertilizer. No net supplies were used. Note that if they were just consuming supplies with no recycling or agroponics, they should have eaten 16.2 supplies/kerb * 12 kerbs *426 days = 82,414 supplies and deposited exactly that much mulch. So yeah, I think this is the way to go. 

I could see carrying two labs on the ship but not three... so I will either bump the max kerbs/lab value up to 6 (it's 5, if I understand this right) or just go with two and accept lower efficiency. I'll be sure to test this rig again with one fewer lab, don't worry--but either way, it looks like the KSS [REDACTED] will have to carry about 40,000 units of fertilizer and have empty tanks for 40,000 units of mulch (as I did not see a "dump mulch" function anywhere.) to hit its 10 year endurance target.

@RoverDude, if this seems correct to you I'd be happy to cross-post the study on your USI-LS thread. It might be of interest to others trying to figure it all out.  

 

hmmm I would have thought you would have made more mulch (tho it would have gone right back into the system)?  But yeah, fertilizer is a pretty awesome way to extend your supplies.

[Mister Dilsby]

12 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

hmmm I would have thought you would have made more mulch (tho it would have gone right back into the system)?  But yeah, fertilizer is a pretty awesome way to extend your supplies.

I actually didn't think I would make any net mulch while running agroponics-- that is, it would all be turned into supplies and the supplies would be consumed. But then again that violates conservation of mass, so yeah.

Moving on, I find the following consumption rates for different numbers of labs turned on:

12 kerbals, 3 MPLs, 2 agroponics: 0.71 fertilizer per kerb per day
12 kerbals, 2 MPLs, 2 agroponics: 0.96 fertilizer per kerb per day
12 kerbals, 1 MPL,   2 agroponics: 1.35 fertilizer per kerb per day
12 kerbals, no MPL, 2 agroponics: 1.90 fertilizer per kerb per day

This isn't quite what I'd expect if the MPL is supposed to recycle for 5 kerbals. (BTW I can't tell how hard the MPLs are actually working, since they always show 100% load no matter how many kerbs are on the test rig.)

Anyway, if one MPL really does recycle 5 kerbs' mulch I would expect that when I have 12 kerbs and only 2 MPL then:

--the 10 kerbs served by the MPLs would make 0.71 mulch each per day = 7.1 mulch/day
--the 2 kerbs not served by the MPLs would make 1.9 mulch each per day = 3.8 mulch/day
...averaging to (7.1+3.8)/12 kerbs = .91, not .96 as observed. So, something else is going on.

Anyway, I think I can work with this... though now that I see I'll have to carry 40-50 tons of fertilizer, maybe I'll rethink this whole freeze/hibernation thing after all  

 

 

[Geschosskopf]

58 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

426 days (one Kerbal year later) here's how it all looks. Note that I turned off the "habitation" effects, so no one got homesick. 

?????

58 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

How quickly a year passes!

Especially if you have Better Time Warp  .  I whiled away 3 years just this morning already.

58 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

So, looks like my 12 kerbs made 3463 mulch and consumed 3463 fertilizer. No net supplies were used. Note that if they were just consuming supplies with no recycling or agroponics, they should have eaten 16.2 supplies/kerb * 12 kerbs *426 days = 82,414 supplies and deposited exactly that much mulch. So yeah, I think this is the way to go. 

Well, glad you got it working.  And also I observe the reactor's still going strong.  IIRC, their power production falls off as enriched fuel depletes so it's always a good idea to have a little extra capacity.

[Mister Dilsby]

1 minute ago, Geschosskopf said:

?????

That is, I edited the config file and changed the "NoHomeEffect" consequence from 1 (Kerbal refuses to work) to 0 (nothing happens)

LIFE_SUPPORT_SETTINGS
{
    SupplyTime = 324000            //How many seconds before Kerbals are affected by no supplies
    EVATime = 21600                //How many seconds before ill effects on EVA
    ECAmount = 0.01                //EC per Kerbal per second                        
    SupplyAmount = 0.00075        //Supplies consumed per Kerbal per second
    WasteAmount = 0.00075        //Mulch produced per Kerbal per second
    NoSupplyEffect = 1            //Effect if a Kerbal has no supplies or EC
    NoSupplyEffectVets = 1        //Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and has no supplies or EC
    EVAEffect = 3                //Effect if a Kerbal exceeds EVA time        
    EVAEffectVets = 3            //Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and exceeds EVA time
    NoHomeEffect = 0            //Effect if a Kerbal becomes homesick
    NoHomeEffectVets = 0        //Effect if a Kerbal is a vet and becomes homesick
 

[Willbl3pic]

I just thought of something. Wouldn't Bill be able to see the Kerbulan ships on his kPad when he looks at the save?

[GDJ]

3 minutes ago, Willbl3pic said:

I just thought of something. Wouldn't Bill be able to see the Kerbulan ships on his kPad when he looks at the save?

SPEAKING OF WHICH...

Better stick a targeting pod and a few heat seeking missiles on that big ship. That ship may still be out there. It may be "Bloaked" but my guess is that the thermal emissions from the engines will still show up outside the cloaking field as a thermal trail. Might as well stick a radar on it and a few goalkeeper turrets on it. My guess is that if the ship uncloaks it's gonna ping the radar like heck.

Just my 2¢.....

Edited February 1, 2016 by GDJ

[Mister Dilsby]

12 minutes ago, Willbl3pic said:

I just thought of something. Wouldn't Bill be able to see the Kerbulan ships on his kPad when he looks at the save?

I don't think I'm going to give Bill quite that level of omniscience/omnipotence  Let's just say as a rule of thumb that he can see and affect Kerbfleet assets and nothing more. He doesn't even know whether Kopernicus is installed or not  

9 minutes ago, GDJ said:

SPEAKING OF WHICH...

Better stick a targeting pod and a few heat seeking missiles on that big ship. That ship may still be out there. It may be "Bloaked" but my guess is that the thermal emissions from the engines will still show up outside the cloaking field as a thermal trail.

"The thing's gotta have a tailpipe!" -- Commander Nyota Uhura, Starfleet
"We have no concept of violence and believe that Kerbals are the only sentient beings in this solar system." -- Comder Dilsby Kerman, Kerbfleet
"We've already gone from no mods to adding USI-LS to adding USI Core to thinking about Deep Freeze. No way am bringing in flippin' BD Armory on top of all that!" -- Kuzzter 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Kuzzter

[Willbl3pic]

9 minutes ago, GDJ said:

SPEAKING OF WHICH...

Better stick a targeting pod and a few heat seeking missiles on that big ship. That ship may still be out there. It may be "Bloaked" but my guess is that the thermal emissions from the engines will still show up outside the cloaking field as a thermal trail. Might as well stick a radar on it and a few goalkeeper turrets on it. My guess is that if the ship uncloaks it's gonna ping the radar like heck.

Just my 2¢.....

There's no BDarmoury.

[GDJ]

7 minutes ago, Willbl3pic said:

There's no BDarmoury.

Just an idea......

[Deddly]

@GDJAnd why would Kerbfleet install some heavy death-dealing equipment that hasn't even been invented in their peaceful world on a ship that's going on a science mission and there is no other life out there, as far as they are concerned? While they're at it, why don't they bring a TV so they could tune in to the local children's station broadcasting from Jool?

Actually, in the Kerbfleet universe, that second one is slightly more realistic

[GDJ]

33 minutes ago, Deddly said:

@GDJAnd why would Kerbfleet install some heavy death-dealing equipment that hasn't even been invented in their peaceful world on a ship that's going on a science mission and there is no other life out there, as far as they are concerned? While they're at it, why don't they bring a TV so they could tune in to the local children's station broadcasting from Jool?

Actually, in the Kerbfleet universe, that second one is slightly more realistic

Like I said earlier, it was just an idea. Nothing more.

Kuzzler said no already and I consider the matter closed.

[Deddly]

Hey @GDJ, I just realised that my post could have come accross as unkind. It was unintentional, but I'm very sorry if you took it that way.

[RocketSquid]

I think the heat trail is a good point, but not too relevant to peaceful Kerbfleet.. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenlie has anywhere between 1 and 5 bloaked kerbulan spy-ships on his tail.

[GDJ]

1 hour ago, Deddly said:

Hey @GDJ, I just realised that my post could have come accross as unkind. It was unintentional, but I'm very sorry if you took it that way.

Hey, fagetaboutit. We's all friends here. I keep da brass knuckles in th' drawer, capiche?

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by GDJ
Crappy mafia accent-like text. Probably messed it up.

[Mister Dilsby]

OK friends, I'll just put this one out myself--hoping to have an update from Bill later on the probes. 

First, here's the upper B pod forward of the bridge showing 'habitation' section. That's a 10-kerb deep freeze module on top.

So yep, another mod to my beautiful stock game though I'm not completely sold on it yet  Seems logical though to have a freezer if I already made 'natural' hibernation canon. This would accomodate 10 of the 12 crew. Might be nice to leave 2 kerbs always awake, in shifts, over the long journey. (will carry extra glykerol or whatever it is for that, of course

Then there's the life support for when they're awake:

On the left is R pod, stacked from bottom to top with a mobile processing lab, a container with 20,000 fertilizer, an empty tank for mulch, and a USI-LS greenhouse. Naturally there would be a matching set in the L pod. To the right is lower B pod, with a pair of 1.25m nuclear reactors from USI-Core below the storage tank (mostly hidden by radiators). The 'main engineering playset' Bill showed last time is in the Mk2 cargo bay above the ore tank. I figured the engineers could use about 15 tons of rock between them and the enriched uranium in the reactors.  

And if you were surprised to see Kuzzter using mods, you'll be shocked by the next part--I'm actually going to ask for advice!  What sort of better 'habitation' module could fit in the upper B pod instead of those two hitchhikers? I haven't looked through all the USI stuff yet, and would not want to add, say, MKS parts if they were going to make the life support stuff even more complicated than it already is. 

[TopHeavy11]

700 days of margin sounds like enough if there is a catastrophic failure *coughbilcrashestheSkimmeroocough* in the hydroponics section. I don't really delve into life support too much myself, but I might try it!