Let's put this in a nicer, less egotistic way...

[soundnfury]

1 minute ago, Matuchkin said:

Ok. No. Just no. Like... NO...

Everything else you said had something to it, but this specific sentence is getting snipe'd by half the people here, just for its contradiction of Snark's five holy commandments. Yes, I am also trying to find ways around them. But what I'm doing is my own method of experimentation, to understand various concepts, rather than flatly contradicting them and saying that it is like that "in my world", because everyone in the forums is operating under the forum's word (while they talk and act in it.)

Hmm, I think you misunderstood me here.

I'm not saying that "this is how I see the world, I will apply it to you".  I am just saying "this is the social custom that exists in another community (one that I identify more strongly with than this community)".  The point being that there will be people who are used to that social custom and don't know it doesn't apply here.

1 minute ago, Matuchkin said:

Oh, and I see you're a hacker. Not to be rude or degrading, but that is not exactly something to take pride in.

More misunderstandings, but this one isn't your fault.

Thanks to a bunch of lazy journalists, most people think "hacker" means "breaker of computer security".  It doesn't.  It means "creative programmer".  Linus Torvalds is a hacker.  So are the inventors of C, Perl and Python.  Being a hacker, in this sense, is something to take pride in — so much so that I feel like I'm being a bit arrogant and boastful by claiming to be one, even though I work on the Linux kernel.

[linuxgurugamer]

2 minutes ago, soundnfury said:

  I am just saying "this is the social custom that exists in another community (one that I identify more strongly with than this community)"

But not necessarily MY community.  Other than KSP, you and I have nothing in common, so no custom of yours would have any bearing on me.

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by linuxgurugamer

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

20 minutes ago, Snark said:

Bear in mind that this entire thread has nothing to do with complaining about whiners, or mod authors being unhappy with the public perception, or anything else.  All of this is simply because the OP was trying to make the case that something should be done about this situation, and trying to make a case that mod authors do, in fact, have some sort of obligation.  Or that if we don't actually have one, we should have one, and the system should be changed in a way that makes it so.

I do not think modders have any obligation to players, and I do not think that the situation is a problem, however, I do think that this might be something that modders might want to consider when choosing a license that they might not have considered.

[RoverDude]

tbh, I have yet to see any license used out there in any mod ever that implies any level of support, suitability, or continuity - in fact, every one I have read has explicitly stated that you get nothing, and everything is as-is.  Which is a pretty safe assumption to make with any mod you download for a game.

[Snark]

15 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

To keep up in this discussion, I need you to explain to me the mindsets of modders, the methods they will choose over others, the reasoning that goes through their heads when they choose whether to let a mod "live or die". Otherwise, my mindset will not progress.

@RoverDude's response to this quote was pretty much spot on.  However, I'll put a more charitable spin on it, and choose to interpret your last sentence as "I would really like to understand modders better, can you help me understand?" and take you at face value.

This'll be a lot shorter than my first response to you ... because now you're just being friendly and asking to understand, rather than telling modders what to do.

Here's pretty much all you need to know about modders.

 

Why does a modder make a mod in the first place?  There are a million possible reasons:  Because he wants it for his own amusement.  Because he's very civic-minded and wants to help the community.  Because he's interested in developing a skillset.  Because he likes to show off.  Could be any one of these, or more.  But the only real takeaway point is:  "because he feels like Making A Thing, and likes to do that for whatever reasons of his own."

Why would a modder continue to develop and support a mod?  Again, lots of possible reasons, but probably the most common ones are:

• Because he's not "done with it" and feels like writing more features, because it's fun and he hasn't gotten bored with it.
• Because he gets a lot of positive feedback from the community, which makes him feel appreciated and want to continue

Why would a modder stop developing a mod and let it die?

• Because it's just not interesting to him anymore
• Because Real Life™ intrudes and he doesn't have the time to spend on maintaining it
• Because it's a dud and nobody's using it and why bother
• Because the user community is giving him a lot of grief (even if it's just a few bad apples) and making his life hell, and it's not worth the hassle

 

There are plenty of reasons why a mod author would continue to support a mod.  And plenty of reasons why he'd let it die.  People are complicated, and any one modder probably has a whole mix of these reasons.

The point at which a mod dies is the point at which the reasons to stop outweigh the reasons to continue-- the same as everything else in life.

[Stone Blue]

10 minutes ago, Snark said:

Why would a modder stop developing a mod and let it die?

• Because the user community is giving him a lot of grief (even if it's just a few bad apples) and making his life hell, and it's not worth the hassle

And this is probably the single most, biggest reason why @Matuchkin started this post, and what users need to know, to keep those popular, cant-live-without-mods alive. Its probably about the only one that users can have any affect on... Because with the first three reasons Snark posted, you likely do not have a disgruntled modder, and the chances of them handing over, or giving permission to continue their work is more likely... Once a modder gets to the fourth reason, then thats when EVERYONE has a problem

[Matuchkin]

12 minutes ago, stupid_chris said:

And to explain the mindset: it's my intellectual property, if I am angry at the community because of the way I've been treated, you bet I will pull the plug on RealChute and leave everyone in the dark. I'm not a slave.

Well, that's quite a radical way of putting it. I meant that I think we can find a way to give modders all the options they want, but just give them a good way of doing things that they would most likely prefer over others.

[stupid_chris]

3 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

Well, that's quite a radical way of putting it. I meant that I think we can find a way to give modders all the options they want, but just give them a good way of doing things that they would most likely prefer over others.

If I'm angry at the community, it's because people in the community made me angry, and I no longer find pleasure in doing what I do. It might be a very radical way to put it, but it's reality. It happened two years ago, and that was a very close call to being the death of RealChute. The *only* thing that can be done against that is to show support and be nice to your friendly neighbourhood modder. It's been hashed to death in this thread.

Edited April 14, 2016 by stupid_chris

[RoverDude]

1 minute ago, Matuchkin said:

Well, that's quite a radical way of putting it. I meant that I think we can find a way to give modders all the options they want, but just give them a good way of doing things that they would most likely prefer over others.

We're already doing the things that we prefer tho

You keep implying we don't have options on the table and for whatever reason cannot do whatever we want with our IP.  We have a wealth of options available, although some of them might not be options that you like.

I don't find @stupid_chris 's position radical at all, I find it truthful and frank.  It may not be what you want to hear, but it's how things are.  

[soundnfury]

2 minutes ago, Matuchkin said:

Well, that's quite a radical way of putting it. I meant that I think we can find a way to give modders all the options they want, but just give them a good way of doing things that they would most likely prefer over others.

I think the point is that they already have all the options they need.

I want to ensure my mods can outlive my interest in them, so I GPL them.

stupid_chris finds other considerations more important, so he doesn't.

None of this is a problem.

[RoverDude]

Or to put it another way.

The point of this thread seems to be about providing some way for modders to better provide continuity/succession of their IP.

This is already a solved problem.  And at some point you need to accept that the answer is simply that the mod dies.  There's nothing a player can offer that will change that, other than being decent and kind and hope the person either stays interested, or decides on their own that the best thing for their IP is an open license.  

No matter how many times we beat this horse, it is not going to budge the needle closer to a world where users are guaranteed continuity, regardless of how popular a mod is, or it's perceived level of criticality.

Edited April 14, 2016 by RoverDude

[soundnfury]

1 minute ago, RoverDude said:

There's nothing a player can offer that will change that, other than being decent and kind and hope the person either stays interested, or decides on their own that the best thing for their IP is an open license.  

No matter how many times we beat this horse, it is not going to budge the needle closer to a world where users are guaranteed continuity, regardless of how popular a mod is, or it's perceived level of criticality.

There is actually one thing a player can do: Learn to mod.  Develop the mods they want to have, rather than expecting others to do it for them.  Understand the mods they use well enough that if one of them gets pulled, they can at least contribute to creating a replacement, even if they can't do it by themselves.

And remember: if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[Andem]

3 hours ago, stupid_chris said:

Intellectual property is not something you choose who you pass it on to, but if you pass it on. This is not something that is up for discussion, that is basic respect of intellectual property and of copyright.

I don't think you are hearing a very important part of what I'm saying here. IF A MODDER WANTS TO PASS ON HIS WORK, WHY DON'T WE PROVIDE THE RECOURCES FOR THEM TO EASILY DO SO. There. That should do it.

[RoverDude]

With all due respect, we already have the resources we need to do this.  Whether it's open licensing, or (as I have seen happen a few times) calls for folks to take a mod over within it's thread.  This is a solved issue.

 

[stupid_chris]

1 minute ago, Andem said:

I don't think you are hearing a very important part of what I'm saying here. IF A MODDER WANTS TO PASS ON HIS WORK, WHY DON'T WE PROVIDE THE RECOURCES FOR THEM TO EASILY DO SO. There. That should do it.

All of those resources are in place? This has never been a problem, mods have switched owners a bazillion times. I just recently took over a mod that has been dead for over two years. Chill out.

[cxg2827]

7 minutes ago, Andem said:

I don't think you are hearing a very important part of what I'm saying here. IF A MODDER WANTS TO PASS ON HIS WORK, WHY DON'T WE PROVIDE THE RECOURCES FOR THEM TO EASILY DO SO. There. That should do it.

So are you saying that modders have to go through hoops to pass on work they no longer have time to continue?

 

Go to this thread and tell me what you see:

 

[Stone Blue]

10 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

With all due respect, we already have the resources we need to do this.  Whether it's open licensing, or (as I have seen happen a few times) calls for folks to take a mod over within it's thread.  This is a solved issue.

Well, sort of.....  Kind of hard to post a request in a release thread that a moderator locked just because its old, and the OP hasnt been around in awhile....

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Stone Blue

[RoverDude]

2 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Well, sort of.....  Kind of hard to post a request in a release thread that a moderator locked just because its old, and the OP hasnt been around in awhile....

 

In which case, if the stuff was not open licensed, no amount of 'resources' in the world will change the fact that said mod is dead unless someone can hunt down the author.

An addendum.  This is why all posts here require licenses, and the various hosting sites also require this.  So if someone vanishes, the license is there so the community knows what it can and cannot do.  Easy peasy.

[Matuchkin]

44 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

You keep implying we don't have options on the table and for whatever reason cannot do whatever we want with our IP.  We have a wealth of options available, although some of them might not be options that you like.

I don't find @stupid_chris 's position radical at all, I find it truthful and frank.  It may not be what you want to hear, but it's how things are.  

Well, I understand @stupid_chris's position perfectly, and agree with it.

I just think that, if there's a ripe apple on the table (a good mod), and you do not have the appetite or time to eat it (boredom/ RealLife^TM/ anger/ etc), then why throw away the apple (let the mod die and never get it back) when you can put it back into its crate and take it when you need it (storing of script for future purposes, or something like that)?

There must be something more than "I felt that the project was not as useful anymore, so I deleted pages of useful work forever" to the mindset of modders. Yes, lack of kindness/ unproductivity may cause a mod's collapse, but what is standing in the way of storing the script, to put the mod back into action when needed? Of course, a modder is not obliged to do anything for the forum community, but if I had to choose between giving everyone something good or keeping it for myself only, I'd choose the first option all the time (unless the matter was about chocolate).

That is what I am trying to ask, but I am only getting told the reasons for stopping a project rather than what someone does when he stops a project. Right. Maybe that's what I should ask, I think I phrased my questions wrong...

[Stone Blue]

4 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

In which case, if the stuff was not open licensed, no amount of 'resources' in the world will change the fact that said mod is dead unless someone can hunt down the author.

Oh this I know...Trust me, I have my eyes on a few old mods I'm consider asking if I could try reviving... A few I had to not even consider due to closed or lack of license... but anyway, I could be wrong, but I think Ive seen threads get locked that DID have open licenses

 

[Andem]

23 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

With all due respect, we already have the resources we need to do this.  Whether it's open licensing, or (as I have seen happen a few times) calls for folks to take a mod over within it's thread.  This is a solved issue.

 

By resources, I mean people. And by people, I mean volunteers. Sometimes it's really powerful to see all the people on standby if you wanted to stop development. To show that a mod is "needed" by a sizable portion of the community. Besides, say you of all people decided to stop working on MKS. Imagine if you could choose from a roster of people who you wanted to continue MKS (assuming you wanted it continued). Wouldn't that be nice for modders and the community? I think so. Tell me if you disagree with creating a list of people willing to pick you up when you fall.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Andem

[stupid_chris]

1 minute ago, Matuchkin said:

Well, I understand @stupid_chris's position perfectly, and agree with it.

I just think that, if there's a ripe apple on the table (a good mod), and you do not have the appetite or time to eat it (boredom/ RealLife^TM/ anger/ etc), then why throw away the apple (let the mod die and never get it back) when you can put it back into its crate and take it when you need it (storing of script for future purposes, or something like that)?

Because it's My Apple© and what I do with it is My Decision™.

[RoverDude]

Just now, Stone Blue said:

Oh this I know...Trust me, I have my eyes on a few old mods I'm consider asking if I could try reviving... A few I had to not even consider due to closed or lack of license... but anyway, I could be wrong, but I think Ive seen threads get locked that DID have open licenses

 

The thread has as much to do with forking a mod as ham does with hamsters   If it's open licensed, and is pretty much deceased (i.e. no OP) and you want to revive it, kick off a new thread.  done.

6 minutes ago, Andem said:

By resources, I mean people. And by people, I mean volunteers. Sometimes it's really powerful to see all the people on standby if you wanted to stop development. To show that a mod is "needed" by a sizable portion of the community. Besides, say you of all people decided to stop working on MKS. Imagine if you could choose from a roster of people who you wanted to continue MKS (assuming you wanted it continued). Wouldn't that be nice for modders and the community? I think so. Tell me if you disagree with creating a list of people willing to pick you up when you fall.

No offense intended at all, but if I were to deliver my mods to someone, it would be one of the current collaborators that has already proved themselves through pull requests, helping with support, etc.

We do not need a list of volunteers.  We need actual volunteers to go in and help users, fix stuff for us, etc. 

And this is what I mean when I say we already have the resources we need.

[Stone Blue]

4 minutes ago, Andem said:

By resources, I mean people. And by people, I mean volunteers. Sometimes it's really powerful to see all the people on standby if you wanted to stop development. To show that a mod is "needed" by a sizable portion of the community. Besides, say you of all people decided to stop working on MKS. Imagine if you could choose from a roster of people who you wanted to continue MKS (assuming you wanted it continued). Wouldn't that be nice for modders and the community? I think so. Tell me if you disagree with creating a list of people willing to pick you up when you fall.

I'm not keen on this idea. I think a hand over of a mod should be a discreet discussion between interested parties, and I think the current means to get those appropriate parties together is already there, meaning posting to the release thread and private messaging/emails.

I think if you put together public lists, you'll get hurt feelings and possibly too many people stumbling over each other if they all DO get picked to fork or continue a mod. You can have well meaning but not really qualified people ending up taking over a mod... plus a zillion other things that could happen that sometimes shouldnt be publicly discussed

[RoverDude]

What @Stone Blue said.

For any mod with even a bit of traction, finding an interested party from among the enthusiastic fans and contributors is not a big deal (for example, MKS has at last count 47 contributors).

I'm just failing to see the problem space here.