KSP Making History

[Kerbart]

15 hours ago, John FX said:

How about the people who were promised they would never have to pay for DLC do not have to pay and the people who were never told they would get free DLC don`t get free DLC?

You mean the situation we are in right now?

 

On 3/25/2017 at 7:36 PM, DiamondExcavater said:

I've read numerous posts saying Squad said we can get the DLC free if the game was bought April 2013, I bought the game in June, and back than the game was about 3 months old when i bought it (when it was put on steam). (...)

Edit: You know what? no, Don't make the DLC free after April, it shouldn't be free at all, Squad has put so much effort into each update... I am willing to pay them the fee, of what ever amount. The game is so amazing as it stands, it can be said that the community shouldn't have pressured squad into a free DLC promise

Let's not forget that in that case you got the game for a significantly lower price than it is at right now.

And you're right, whatever the cost of the DLC is (I'm going to assume it's less than 50% of the game price) , it's worth it for supporting continuous development of the game.

[jros83]

On 3/25/2017 at 7:36 PM, DiamondExcavater said:

 

Edit: You know what? no, Don't make the DLC free after April, it shouldn't be free at all, Squad has put so much effort into each update... I am willing to pay them the fee, of what ever amount. The game is so amazing as it stands, it can be said that the community shouldn't have pressured squad into a free DLC promise

1. "You know what? no, Don't make the DLC free after April, it shouldn't be free at all,"

        I am sure Squad has a better grasp on what they can and can not accept as comfortable within their business model.

2. "Squad has put so much effort into each update... I am willing to pay them the fee, of what ever amount."

       Anecdotal and subjective. Also hyperbolic since "what ever amount" implies you would pay, let's say, 10,000.00 USD. Would you really...? I mean, this is Squad, not AGEOD...

3. "The game is so amazing as it stands,"

      Absolutely!

4. "it can be said that the community shouldn't have pressured squad into a free DLC promise"

     Referencing my first point, Squad wouldn't do anything their books could not handle. Squad wouldn't be "pressured" in to doing something that would be untenable no matter who or how many wanted it. There's always a bottom line.          Furthermore, the precedent of not charging based on a set date was already established. That they remain faithful to this established concept is something to be lauded.

I am not meaning to insult you, but please understand, your argument comes off a bit selfish and haughty.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by jros83

[John FX]

7 hours ago, Kerbart said:

You mean the situation we are in right now?

Of course.

[vsully]

JUST TAKE MY MONEY.

Squad deserves some extra $$$, I got the game for like $27 or something in 0.23.

[Kerbal01]

11 hours ago, munlander1 said:

Has a price been released?

$15.40 or $154. name your price. Kappa.

[Curveball Anders]

2 hours ago, vsully said:

JUST TAKE MY MONEY.

Squad deserves some extra $$$, I got the game for like $27 or something in 0.23.

Same here, 27 USD (and the USD was cheap then).

2014-04-04 (coming up on my 3 year celebration of KSP mania).

[Ser]

The thing I fear of about this "DLC for free for long time users" is:

- Hey, modder, why the hell your mod doesn't work?
- Ummm, oh, yeah, you need "Making History" for that. Forgot to mention, it always was a natural part of the game for me because I've got it for free.
- ... So is there a way to use your mod without it?
- Uh... nope.

I hope so much it won't come to that as in that case we'll get an inevitable paid updates instead of DLCs.
I don't mind to spend some funds on a DLC to get my favorite mods to work but what to do when there will be tens of them, all available for free for some and paid for the rest? Just my fears.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Ser

[DerpzGames]

On 26/03/2017 at 4:41 PM, HebaruSan said:

The OP announced personal parachutes as a "Key Feature" of the DLC. Why would they be available without the DLC?

Won't be long before people start making personal chute mods to circumvent this.

[HebaruSan]

1 minute ago, DerpzGames said:

Won't be long before people start making personal chute mods to circumvent this.

You're right, it already happened four years ago!

Still, those will be modded personal parachutes, not SQUAD Stock Plus™ personal parachutes. Providing different content is not circumvention.

[Chruschtschow]

Right now I'm below 4 cents per hour and the rate is still dropping. The DLC has to be pretty expensive to push KSP from the "Cheapest Hobby Ever (apart from free stuff)" throne.

[J8mbo]

Long time lurker. Made an account so I could let you know how much I'm looking forward to this.

[CRITAWAKETS]

A small problem i could see is things like a contract mod that uses missions to make more detailed contracts. Users will have to pay for the DLC.

Also, another problem would be the fact there already exists a modding community. Most of the new parts will probably have been already made.

[Ser]

49 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

You're right, it already happened four years ago!

Still, those will be modded personal parachutes, not SQUAD Stock Plus™ personal parachutes. Providing different content is not circumvention.

And do you know what happens? The author of this particular mod has joined on April 2012. That means that he'll get a free DLC and would he still be encouraged to maintain this mod? I wouldn't. Why bother wasting time on tests,  boring bug fixes and endless KSP version updates when the feature is already implemented "in stock"? There's a huge temptation to leave that stuff to Squad. I would stop using my mod for that reason, and that means poor testing and high probability of complete abandoning. So the danger is we will start to lose mods as they are included to DLCs and abandoned by authors.

My message is to modders to think twice before making a decision to create dependency on a DLC, and to Squad to carefully choose what features are to be included in paid DLCs. Because that is likely to split the community in two. But maybe that's fair: those who don't pay should suffer - that's capitalism, baby.

[HebaruSan]

23 minutes ago, Ser said:

And do you know what happens? The author of this particular mod has joined on April 2012. That means that he'll get a free DLC and would he still be encouraged to maintain this mod? I wouldn't.

I'm afraid the original author left us long ago for reasons unrelated to DLC; this mod, like so many dozens of others, lives on in a "continued" fork maintained by linuxgurugamer. Who knows what he will decide to do with mods that may overlap with the Making History pack.

23 minutes ago, Ser said:

Why bother wasting time on tests,  boring bug fixes and endless KSP version updates when the feature is already implemented "in stock"? There's a huge temptation to leave that stuff to Squad. I would stop using my mod for that reason, and that means poor testing and high probability of complete abandoning. So the danger is we will start to lose mods as they are included to DLCs and abandoned by authors.

It's possible. It's also possible (likely?) that more people will buy the DLC than ever used the mod, in which case it's a net benefit.

[Ser]

1 hour ago, HebaruSan said:

It's possible. It's also possible (likely?) that more people will buy the DLC than ever used the mod, in which case it's a net benefit.

That. Thus people are forced to purchase DLCs because the free mod dies in a natural way.

Just now, HebaruSan said:

I'm afraid the original author left us long ago for reasons unrelated to DLC; this mod, like so many dozens of others, lives on in a "continued" fork maintained by linuxgurugamer. Who knows what he will decide to do with mods that may overlap with the Making History pack.

The trouble is that those mods are continued because many people still needed them including a modder who adopted them. But now some of those people will own the DLC reducing the number of the ones intrested in that mod. If the mod's author and the modders who could potentially revive the mod are among those who own the DLC then those who don't would be just left overboard with nothing else left than to purchase it.

On the other hand, let's assume Squad decides that life support is a cool feature and, of course, "doesn't correspond the main idea of the game", thus obviously should be included in a DLC and bring Squad some additional candies. There's a great temptation to do that and people are prone to temptations. If its author gets that DLC then above negative effects will arise. And more people are likely choose to purchase the DLC instead of waiting for someone to revive the mod. More of, as a software developer, I can say that in terms of money DLCs are less expensive than my time and effort I could put into some mod thus it is more rational for a coder to buy the DLC than to apply his ability to revive a mod, and to leave the ones who can't write code with nothing.

So we come to, on one hand, that Squad is free to develop the game as they wish, and, on the other hand, it's a big question is it ethical at all to include mods into paid DLCs. After all, things provided by mods weren't implemented by Squad and that's why they were implemented by modders, increasing commercial attraction of KSP for totally free. Now after people got used to them they are sold to the same people. So I think that it would be fair if popular features, at least, would be included in stock or "official mods", not paid DLCs. But yeah, that's additional work for Squad with no additional candies.

[Superfluous J]

8 minutes ago, Ser said:

Thus people are forced to purchase DLCs because the free mod dies in a natural way.

...or one of those people steps up and either takes over maintenance of the mod, or writes it themselves.

If nobody is making or maintaining a specific mod, it is 100% the fault of the people who want the mod but aren't making it. Not Squad for including similar functionality in the game or DLC, and not the original modder for stopping support of the mod for any reason.

Edited March 27, 2017 by 5thHorseman

[magico13]

FAR, RemoteTech, and DeadlyReentry are all mods that came before stock implementations and they're all still more or less active, and that's when their features were implemented in a way that is free for everyone, not just a small subset of players. Mod authors have no requirement or responsibility to continue providing updates, with or without the features they provide being added into the Stock game. If there's a need or a strong enough desire for something, someone will step up. And if no one does, then maybe you should be the person to step up. That's how our open source modding community has always been and will hopefully always remain.

[HebaruSan]

2 hours ago, Ser said:

it's a big question is it ethical at all to include mods into paid DLCs.

Not at all. Situation pre-DLC:

Functionality is available to people who: 1) Heard about or looked for the mod, 2) Are on a non-console platform, 3) Decided to download it, 4) Installed it correctly, and 5) Kept it up to date as new KSP versions are released.

Situation post-DLC, even assuming the mod disappears overnight and is never revived:

Functionality is available to people who: Bought the DLC.

That's a much lower bar, meaning far more people will experience the benefit of having this functionality. From the standpoint of, say, utilitarianism, it's a very clear ethical positive.

Edited March 27, 2017 by HebaruSan

[Urses]

1 hour ago, HebaruSan said:

/snip/

Thanks @HebaruSan

And to give you one bluebean more.

The mod is another pair of shoes because there are not only Parshutes there. Egecktion Seats are more interesting Aspekt. And they are not a part of DLC.

The mods have mostly something in it what is missing in stock out of sight of this modder. And we have many Newcomers who begin Now. And don't get the "free" stuff...

Let it come at us and See what happens? @Ser ?

[Ser]

1 hour ago, HebaruSan said:

Not at all. Situation pre-DLC:

... 2) Are on a non-console platform

I haven't thought about that DLCs might be the way to deliver mod functionality to consoles. Well, that just makes me hate them more.

1 hour ago, Urses said:

The mods have mostly something in it what is missing in stock out of sight of this modder.

Trouble is that "stock" will be different for everyone.

1 hour ago, Urses said:

Let it come at us and See what happens? @Ser ?

What else is left to us? Just let it come and see. May be things won't be that bad, as there are such mods as RemoteTech, ScanSat that exist despite similar stuff implemented in stock.

 

[SpacePilotMax]

EA time. No, seriously, I already bought the game and now I have to pay more for all of the content? That will split the community. Not to even mention that someone will probably make the DLC into a mod the day it comes out.

[Urses]

1 hour ago, Ser said:

Trouble is that "stock" will be different for everyone.

@Ser and Ping on @SpacePilotMax

That is the point...

How it can be different?

Yes you can't use a mod that is based on Mission Planer because it is a ingame function. But mostly a mode generates a new part and gives this part a new funktion. Like LifeSupport or realy BadS Engine. But this means the modder used a copy of the original Item. And it is, if my C#-fu does not betray me, a part from this mode and not from the game. You get it with the mod, not because you have a spezial edition from game? Yah you can't use the Pod from DLC if you don't buy it, but the modfied Pod from mode is all yours, because it is an item that is defined by the mod.

And at the Moment we all are Deep in the Shadows and try to survive what the Game-Master will throw at us.

This said let us hope we get only small Scars and big Treasures.

Funny Kabooms 

Urses

PS: Let me say as a old Game-Master. I never tried to kill my Groups, i jailed them, i beat them up, but i let them every time a small window to see some sun and to hope, because they will never come back if they don't see it.

Let SQUAD come and try to exite us and show us theyr Definition of a "Sunny window"?

(Sorry for bad english)

Edited March 27, 2017 by Urses

[Mako]

3 hours ago, SpacePilotMax said:

EA time. No, seriously, I already bought the game and now I have to pay more for all of the content? That will split the community. Not to even mention that someone will probably make the DLC into a mod the day it comes out.

Do you want Squad to continue to make content for KSP? No, seriously, you paid for what already existed and anything they could continue to produce from existing sales. I feel pretty confident saying that new purchases must have dropped off by now, and without new income there is no more development. Squad isn't a group of modders working on KSP for fun in their spare time.

That said, I'm a bit sad that this probably means very little/no new base game content. With a small team I doubt they can work on base game content and add-on content at the same time. And if they need to try to increase sales with localization and add-on content, they're probably needing to focus heavily on revenue earning content (which is not base game, free update features).

That's just business.

In fact I'm a bit surprised Squad's still going in video games since they only have one product and it's only been successful on PC platforms. I'm certainly not upset they're still going, but, even though KSP has been very successful on PC, until they announced DLC I really didn't understand how they could afford to hire new staff, keep the lights on, and continue updating KSP.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Mako

[Vanamonde]

Quote

... on the other hand, it's a big question is it ethical at all to include mods into paid DLCs. After all, things provided by mods weren't implemented by Squad and that's why they were implemented by modders, increasing commercial attraction of KSP for totally free. Now after people got used to them they are sold to the same people. 

To avoid this kind of overlap, Squad would have to refuse to implement anything that has been made into a mod, and also anything that someone might want to make a mod out of in the future. Which would leave them with nothing to add to the game. 

[Superfluous J]

It wasn't paid, but we've had this situation before and the community did just fine. Be it a soccer ball, SLS parts, or scanning for asteroids around other planets, every single mod that I know of just worked whether or not the unpaid DLC (which is what they were) were installed or not. I see no reason the same should not be true for paid DLC.

I mean sure, if a mod works with and/or relies on the mission builder then of course you'll need the DLC for the mod to work. But if you don't have the DLC you probably won't want a mod that deals with the mission builder anyway.