Making History preview - critique and discussion

[passinglurker]

So with the preview of the new Making History parts by @RoverDude comes the most important thing to do after receiving a preview. It's time to give some critique and feedback.

Now let me just open by saying this isn't a criticism of roverdude as a person he's an amazing driven developer and modder with a great work ethic, and morals that have encouraged shared assets and has only helped make the game more moddable. The point of this critique is to aid him in making the best parts he can for the KSP community that fit in best with the more recent additions to the part catalog such as the space plane parts. This is important because every new major body part that is added to the game that doesn't fit in like this would also need to replaced when the indefinitely postponed rocket revamp finally comes and it's feared that if there are too many parts that need to be replaced the revamp may never come.

This Critique also refers to the Semi-official Part Overhaul mod by @Porkjet because it laid a great foundation of how rocket parts could be made consistent with the spaceplane parts while still preserving a distinct style for each manufacturer to allow easy identification in the part catalog.

Finally this critique takes the form of the large preview image written over with notes, criticisms, and reference pictures to backup claims. So for the sake of not breaking the webpage on mobile with something super wide I've enclosed the image in the spoiler below.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by passinglurker
further mellowing

[Frozen_Heart]

Imo roverdude's parts are very good and match up with the cancelled porkjet overhaul almost perfectly. I consider these parts as consistent with the current art direction.

 

Just sad that the 1.25m and 2.5m parts got abandoned and still look like placeholders from a different KSP era. The part upgrade system would have been nice too.

[CobaltWolf]

Just now, Frozen_Heart said:

Imo roverdude's parts are very good and match up with the cancelled porkjet overhaul almost perfectly. I consider these parts as consistent with the current art direction.

Just sad that the 1.25m and 2.5m parts got abandoned and still look like placeholders from a different KSP era. The part upgrade system would have been nice too.

D-did you look at the OP? At all?

[Hotaru]

Personally I'm not as bothered as you by the large bolts and cleaner seams (although I agree a bit more weathering around the edges would look nice), but I'm definitely with you on the colors, as much on the existing parts as the new ones. The current part selection is divided up into different sets of parts, each with its own slightly different shades of white, black, gray, orange, etc. I think just a simple once-over brightness and contrast settings on all the textures, old and new, to make the colors match would go a very long way to give all the parts a much more uniform look--so the new parts, old SLS parts, old Porkjet spaceplane parts, and others all look consistent together. Whether Roverdude's more saturated colors or Porkjet's subtler ones are better I think is a matter of taste, but I would at least like to see them match up.

That said, looking more closely at that image there's some stuff I really like about these new parts compared to the old ones. One thing I especially notice is that the metal on the inside of the tanks has a nice reflectivity to it--compare to the Porkjet one at top left, where the inside of the tank is basically just dark gray. And bear in mind it's possible what we're looking at is still a work-in-progress and that the final version will be a little more polished than what we see now.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Hotaru

[Frozen_Heart]

1 minute ago, CobaltWolf said:

D-did you look at the OP? At all?

Yes actually. It is essentially stating that the parts don't fit in with porkjets overhaul. I respectfully disagree.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Frozen_Heart

[minepagan]

1 minute ago, Frozen_Heart said:

Yes actually. It is essentially stating that the parts don't fit in with porkjets overhaul. I respectfully disagree.

Which you are entirely free to do.

[passinglurker]

3 minutes ago, Hotaru said:

Personally I'm not as bothered as you by the large bolts and cleaner seams (although I agree a bit more weathering around the edges would look nice), but I'm definitely with you on the colors, as much on the existing parts as the new ones. The current part selection is divided up into different sets of parts, each with its own slightly different shades of white, black, gray, orange, etc. I think just a simple once-over brightness and contrast settings on all the textures, old and new, to make the colors match would go a very long way to give all the parts a much more uniform look--so the new parts, old SLS parts, old Porkjet spaceplane parts, and others all look consistent together. Whether Roverdude's more saturated colors or Porkjet's subtler ones are better I think is a matter of taste, but I would at least like to see them match up.

That said, looking more closely at that image there's some stuff I really like about these new parts compared to the old ones. One thing I especially notice is that the metal on the inside of the tanks has a nice reflectivity to it--compare to the Porkjet one at top left, where the inside of the tank is basically just dark gray. And bear in mind it's possible what we're looking at is still a work-in-progress and that the final version will be a little more polished than what we see now.

This is a fair assesment people have thier different peeves for example I may get picky about the texture but I've got no problem with any mesh design choices. The beauty of porkjet's aesthetic in the space planes and the overhaul is that it's reached a point of consensus among the discerning users it has a little something for everyone.

[CobaltWolf]

Just now, Frozen_Heart said:

Yes actually. It is essentially stating that the parts don't fit in with porkjets overhaul. I respectfully disagree.

They're objectively different in both style and direction (see below)

2 minutes ago, Hotaru said:

Personally I'm not as bothered as you by the large bolts and cleaner seams (although I agree a bit more weathering around the edges would look nice), but I'm definitely with you on the colors, as much on the existing parts as the new ones. The current part selection is divided up into different sets of parts, each with its own slightly different shades of white, black, gray, orange, etc. I think just a simple once-over brightness and contrast settings on all the textures, old and new, to make the colors match would go a very long way to give all the parts a much more uniform look--so the new parts, old SLS parts, old Porkjet spaceplane parts, and others all look consistent together. Whether Roverdude's more saturated colors or Porkjet's subtler ones is better I think is a matter of taste, but I would at least like to see them match up.

That said, looking more closely at that image there's some stuff I really like about these new parts compared to the old ones. One thing I especially notice is that the metal on the inside of the tanks as a nice reflectivity to it--compare to the Porkjet one at top left, where the inside of the tank is basically just dark gray. And bear in mind it's possible what we're looking at is still a work-in-progress and that the final version will be a little more polished than what we see now.

We got a similar thing when 1.1 released - someone at Squad went through every part with a window on it and unified them to that teal color that first appeared in the Mk2/Mk3 parts. Prior, windows were all over the place - some purple, some blue, some teal, etc. What you're talking about is definitely doable at a bare minimum, but doesn't solve the fact that the visual quality of the stock parts is all over the place.

Re: Metal on the inside of the tank, sure. If you like that (I honestly don't have a strong opinion, I'm after bigger fish at the moment) I don't think it detracts significantly from the point that overall these parts are lower detail at a time when we've been effectively promised more. And if it's that WIP, maybe that should have been said? It is entirely within their rights to do so. And that same reasoning applies to any critique of the rocket revamp parts as well. In either case, the direction both part sets are heading is clear.

My summary on the subject:

Porkjet's style involves building up layers of detail subtley. The parts are sufficiently cartoonified ('iconized' is another good term) to be immediately readable, but upon zooming in they have a fair amount of detail to the textures, with edge wear, grease smudges, paint strips not mixed properly, etc. This makes the parts detail scale at a variety of distances. The hand painted nature of the details maintains the 'cartoony' aesthetic while increasing the fidelity and visual appeal of the parts. The style very deliberately decides which real life details to include or not to include, and purposefully sticks to a handful different 'scales' of detail - simplified main features, detailed edge wear etc in the texturing, but often omitting smaller physical details.

In contrast, this style is plain and lacks visual depth. Little is done to add fine detail that increases fidelity while maintaining the cartoon aesthetic. There is a lack of strong unifying direction past the most basic level - parts don't use matching hues and values where they should, but are uniform in places where they should be varied. Opportunities to add detail are missed - mipmapping and simple screen space scaling would make small details like paint scratches blend into the overall part at the size seen in this screenshot, but it is obvious that there isn't more to be seen by zooming in. They are, in fact, too simplified. These are a base to start from, not a finished product.

[Beale]

1 hour ago, passinglurker said:

Finally this critique takes the form of the large preview image written over with notes, criticisms, and reference pictures to backup claims. So for the sake of not breaking the webpage on mobile with something super wide I've enclosed the image in the spoiler below.

Nice summary, a lot of things pretty easy to fix for consistency.

[passinglurker]

Following @regex 's advice I've updated the critique and OP with more toned down language in the hope that @RoverDude will ultimately read it.

[Enceos]

@passinglurker I think you lost his attention with that attitude already. But I agree with the texturing remarks.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Enceos

[passinglurker]

Just now, Enceos said:

@passinglurker I think you lost his attention with that attitude already.

I'm not worried time heals all wounds.

[Frybert]

Thread temporarily locked pending review.

[Vanamonde]

Thread re-opened. Keep it polite, please. 

[DuoDex]

I am not a modeler, but some of the design decisions seem a bit dodgy to me when compared to the current models we've got already.

I would've leaned towards a more curvy design on the new tanks to match with the spaceplane parts we've got - instead it seems we're getting yet another style of part that doesn't mesh well with any of the previous styles. 

Now obviously @RoverDude can't emulate Porkjet's work completely as there's differences in experience, design philosophy, etc, but I was hoping for a more fluid and less angular design. 

That would make it more fun to combine different sizes and get a nice effect.

[RoverDude]

@DuoDex - Except these are rocket parts, not space plane parts.  And also part of a historical pack.  The Saturn parts, for example, match up very nicely with the NASA parts.

[VenomousRequiem]

I think that the old stock parts are ugly too, so what's the big deal 

[RoverDude]

Thanks for the valuable insight and constructive input, @VenomousRequiem.

[passinglurker]

28 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

@DuoDex - Except these are rocket parts, not space plane parts. 

Some of the stuff we are talking about can be considered pretty universal regardless of role like matching the yellow rings on the top to the same pallet, or using a tighter AO bake instead of hand painting looser smudge style ambient occlusions
 

28 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

And also part of a historical pack.  The Saturn parts, for example, match up very nicely with the NASA parts.

The NASA parts are an artistic geology layer in and of themselves and a lot I mentioned in my critique can be applied to them as well. That being said with the access to the masters that I assume you have there are a number of simple texture changes that could be made to them and you're making history parts that can at least mitigate the divergence from the foundation laid by the spaceplane parts and mothballed overhaul. 

Ultimately I and evidently other members of the community would like to see some of these artistic geology layers mitigated or removed entirely if possible and as a result take a step towards unifying the aesthetic, and I fear if you line your new parts up with older layers you will make it more difficult to remove them if/when the time comes due to the workload that would accumulate.

Edited April 2, 2017 by passinglurker

[DuoDex]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

@DuoDex - Except these are rocket parts, not space plane parts.  And also part of a historical pack.  The Saturn parts, for example, match up very nicely with the NASA parts.

Parts are parts, I think the number of people who use only rocket parts only for rockets and vice versa is very small, so a more universal/uniform design still makes sense

[Waxing_Kibbous]

Are the tank renders cut out from in game screenshots or are they rendered somewhere else? Any tweaks done in post?

[passinglurker]

3 minutes ago, DuoDex said:

Parts are parts, I think the number of people who use l rocket parts only for rockets and vice versa is very small, so a more universal/uniform design still makes sense

You mean paint and panel like a big ole' round mk3?, or do you mean apply the same standards and details but keep the manufacturer unique style? (like synchronized color pallets, panel edging, baked AO, grunge and scratches you only notice when you get close, no visible panel bolts etc..)

It's important to make the distinction to avoid confusion.

The mothballed overhaul by porkjet showed us how parts can have different manufacturer specific styles but still go together by simply applying the same artistic wear and physics to everything so they look like they came out of the same universe.

[Wjolcz]

Two things.

Firstly, I don't think the new parts should be compared with something which didn't make its way into the game (PJ's rocket parts).

Secondly, I agree with the opinion that the parts should be as consistent as possible.

IMO the biggest issue with these overhauls is the fact that each of them is never fully finished. We either get new plane parts or new rocket parts and it's never the same person making them. I also think that if SQUAD decided to make all the parts procedural and stretchy there would be less work to do and the inconsistencies would never be there. By making the game LEGO-like they also make their jobs much harder since each part has to have it's own model and texture.

EDIT: I know it's about the DLC parts and it's not an overhaul but still, procedural parts would make probably everyone happy.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Veeltch

[CobaltWolf]

9 hours ago, RoverDude said:

@DuoDex - Except these are rocket parts, not space plane parts.  And also part of a historical pack.  The Saturn parts, for example, match up very nicely with the NASA parts.

So, I suppose part of the issue here is this - Squad never properly explained whether or not the rocket parts overhaul was well and truly dead. Are we, or are we not, getting an upgrade to the quality of the stock parts? The style of these Saturn parts (in that they match the existing NASA parts) implies that we are not getting that - ever. If so, fine, ok. But I think the community should know that moving forward, since it definitely changes some things.

Edited April 2, 2017 by CobaltWolf

[klgraham1013]

9 hours ago, RoverDude said:

@DuoDex - Except these are rocket parts, not space plane parts.

Yet, this is a game with Lego style building.  It'd be nice if we could use any Lego we want and still have our craft resemble a consistent whole.

I, for one, have often used mk2 plane parts and 1.25 rocket parts together.