1.4.1 bugged to all hell. unplayable.

[Red Thought]

On 3/25/2018 at 4:33 PM, Lightzy said:

Campagin mode..

First bug, I do the first 2 missions on hard. Gain infinity money rewards. Enough to upgrade the whole kerbal center etc.
So I do a clean install, figure maybe maybe, and it fixes it.

With the clean install,
I do a 'fly space tourist to suborbital spaceflight", the contract never resolves.
It shows that their itinerary is complete but but the mission is incomplete. I figure ok, I.. don't know.
So I take another such mission and complete it, but this time they don't even register the itinerary as complete ...

what how can you break the game entirely and release it without seemingly playing through campaign mode even once? even loveing once

I had this problem too at first.   I seem to have been able to bypass the bug by using cheat commands in order to fully upgrade the mission complex that gives you contracts, first thing.   Do this before accepting any contracts and you should be able to bypass that particular bug,   I have tried it several times and gotten that exact same bug several times.    My work around seems to work.  Don't ask me why, but it does.   My latest save file in 1.4.1 which is heavily modded has not had any bugs in the 20 hours that I have put into it.   I also knoticed several other bugs involoving the Mission Complex.  Upgrading mission complex to full before doing anything else seems to have fixed all of those bugs.   There is something seriously wrong with the Mission Complex.

Oh and also I had trouble with tourist contracts so I have avoided them like the plauge.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Red Thought
further detail

[tillyd]

On 25/03/2018 at 9:33 PM, Lightzy said:

Campagin mode..

First bug, I do the first 2 missions on hard. Gain infinity money rewards. Enough to upgrade the whole kerbal center etc.
So I do a clean install, figure maybe maybe, and it fixes it.

With the clean install,
I do a 'fly space tourist to suborbital spaceflight", the contract never resolves.
It shows that their itinerary is complete but but the mission is incomplete. I figure ok, I.. don't know.
So I take another such mission and complete it, but this time they don't even register the itinerary as complete ...

what how can you break the game entirely and release it without seemingly playing through campaign mode even once? even loveing once

been playing pretty hard since 1.4.1 launched 200+ hours and counting 

and ive yet to come across a single bug tbh atleast nothing ive noticed im going to point out i only play with 2 mods engineer and state funding ... and career mode as always been easy to amass huge sums of money just buy doing the walkthro missions explore dock etc etc by the time you have landed on minmus you would have completely unlocked everything to max at the ksc

all of my missions have completed without any issues i have noticed satalite missions wont complete unless antenna  is fully extended even tho its still within comm range and  sometimes any required componants are stored within the probe the mission wont complete

 

[Renegrade]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:22 AM, Mark Kerbin said:

Also lets be honest. Squad is a "small" team, and doesn't really have the time/money or resources to truly play test a game. Now I'm sure they take a look at new stuff to make sure it works most of the time, and then check out stuff that could be effected, but its not like they can really go through and put everything in every situation on every sort of system. Thats what this crazy community is for. Finding obvious bugs that got missed in dev, then dive deeper and find the kind of bugs only someone up at midnight living off caffeine could cause.

I do believe we skipped the pre-release phase this time.  Maybe it's showing?  No amount of internal playtesting can even remotely come close to a pre-release...

[klgraham1013]

8 hours ago, Renegrade said:

I do believe we skipped the pre-release phase this time.  Maybe it's showing?  No amount of internal playtesting can even remotely come close to a pre-release...

I don't know.  There's been a few bugs in the 1.4 era that should have been noticeable by playing the game for 5 minutes.  Maybe they were considered known shippable.

[DoToH]

On 27/3/2018 at 6:13 PM, Wallygator said:

Post like this all as much as desired - but perhaps simultaneously consider creating a viable bug report

Since 1.0, we are customers, not testers. Don't they have QA team?.

The truth about this is: KSP is still in early acces, no matter  what version number comes after the name, still unfinished. They expect their customers to catch and report bugs as if they were in alpha state, without any complain or question about the wonderful QA team and their strange lack of luck in catching a bug in their countless playtesting sessions, even when we run into it in less than 15 minutes.

Want a bug report? ok

BUG REPORT:

KSP version: since 1.0  to 1.4.2

Description: Average players can't go interplanetary without mods or external tools. (DV calculators, spreadsheets, launch window calculators, DV maps). Skilled players don't even try without knowing their DV or the approximate launch window (exception can be made for Duna, Jool or Eve if the player has masochistic tendency).

Consequence: only a few play the latest release more than the 15 minute test "to check it out" before KER or Mechjeb are updated. These are the ones that never leave Kerbin's SOI and some spreadsheet addicts.

How to reproduce:

1- Fresh install. No internet access. No calculators or spreadsheets. No cheat menu.

2- Ask a player to land on Moho.

3- Watch him as he cries out of true impotence.

Solution: stop releasing bugged content and features that nobody asked for and finish the game.  Continuous developing only makes sense if something useful is developed.

 

Disclaimer: I love KSP. Thats the reason why I'm still here, years later, reading and posting (mostly reading). That's the reason why I try every update since 1.0, just to check if "this is the one", and give up 30 minutes later with the hope "maybe next one". Played 1.4.1 for 10 minutes,  gave up. Read the changelog for 1.4.2 and didn't bother to launch the game. Back to my modded 1.3.1. Call me again when KER gets updated for KSP 1.4.5.

 

 

 

[Wallygator]

5 hours ago, DoToH said:

Solution: stop releasing bugged content and features that nobody asked for and finish the game.  Continuous developing only makes sense if something useful is developed.

Can't disagree with this. (although I think your bug report "in total" may not pass the smell test  )

I'm the last person to defend the dev-team when huge mistakes are made (heck even minor ones) - they need to own up to it and fix the issues - and for the most part they do this reasonable quickly, all things considered. 

As to your request for DV readouts, well, you likely know thats a long story.  There has NEVER been a desire by the developers to implement such a feature.  However... it still appears to be their desire to support a viable and energetic modding community  - so there you go, we should support our favourite modders and happily use mods like KER.

(My opinion: DV readouts and other aspects of enjoyable play SHOULD be stock features - but not having a specific feature is not considered a bug in the code. It may be a gap in the overall requirements and design that can only be addressed by community outcry, rage, stock sales, street protests, boycotts, flaming pitchforks, etc - oh and also constructive criticism and debate).

Also, there is a QA team/function.  But like all development efforts sometimes there are bugs that get through due to test plans not being accurate.

This is my opinion only. You and others may have drastically different views.

[pandaman]

Unplayable? No, not from my PoV.  Lots of stuff that should have been caught and addressed before release, YES absolutely.

I haven't played 1.4.x and MH to the depth that many have yet, so no doubt haven't come across a lot of the issues others have.  But I have seen enough to make words like 'rushed release' and 'lack of QA' spring to mind.

I am enjoying 1.4 overall and the part updates and extras are welcome too,  but I'm not getting too ambitious with my space exploration until many more issues are fixed.

[Superfluous J]

It may not be unplayable, but I'm sure not playing it.

[Mr. Peabody]

I just with they would finish these accursed bandaid updates already.

[DoToH]

3 hours ago, Wallygator said:

can only be addressed by community outcry, rage, stock sales, street protests, boycotts, flaming pitchforks, etc - oh and also constructive criticism and debate

So we are doing. Lost my pichfork while protesting in the street, and came to the forum to show my rage. My constructive criticism ended with 1.0.

 

3 hours ago, Wallygator said:

 There has NEVER been a desire by the developers to implement such a feature.

This is false. They said (0.90 IIRC)  they wanted to add it, but got parked because the rush for 1.0. l can search the forum if you need proof.

 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

10 hours ago, DoToH said:

Description: Average players can't go interplanetary without mods or external tools. (DV calculators, spreadsheets, launch window calculators, DV maps). Skilled players don't even try without knowing their DV or the approximate launch window (exception can be made for Duna, Jool or Eve if the player has masochistic tendency).

Consequence: only a few play the latest release more than the 15 minute test "to check it out" before KER or Mechjeb are updated. These are the ones that never leave Kerbin's SOI and some spreadsheet addicts.

Most of your argument is opinion based on your own perspective (which is what we all do; project our own play-style onto others), but there's validity to some of that, so I won't dispute it. However, the above comments are just dead wrong. My entire first year I played without a transfer tool (and have still never used a Delta V calculator or spreadsheet of any kind), and I traveled to every planet and landed on every moon. You're confusing difficult with tedious. There's a big difference. And since there are no "unique butterflies" in this game, there are surely plenty of others who play this way as well.

10 hours ago, DoToH said:

Ho to reproduce:

1- Fresh install. No internet access. No calculators or spreadsheets. No cheat menu.

2- Ask a player to land on Moho.

3- Watch him as he cries out of true impotence.

I don't understand this example. This is how I always go to Moho. It's not the easiest, but I don't know any other way. How exactly is this an example of "can't be done"?

[DerekL1963]

57 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Most of your argument is opinion based on your own perspective (which is what we all do; project our own play-style onto others), but there's validity to some of that, so I won't dispute it. However, the above comments are just dead wrong.

Quite the contrary.  They did a survey some years back and found that the majority of the players never left Kerbin's SOI.  Now whether or not that's entirely due to a lack of tools is open to debate, but from the comments on the forums it's inarguable that such lack is a factor.  There's simply too many players looking for such tools (in stock) to dismiss his claims as "dead wrong"
 

1 hour ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

However, the above comments are just dead wrong. My entire first year I played without a transfer tool (and have still never used a Delta V calculator or spreadsheet of any kind), and I traveled to every planet and landed on every moon. You're confusing difficult with tedious. There's a big difference. And since there are no "unique butterflies" in this game, there are surely plenty of others who play this way as well.

Says the guy who just dismissed someone else's argument as the product of a "unique butterfly" and then argues that his perspective is the one that defines the basis for the discussion.

You can't have it both ways.

[LoSBoL]

1 hour ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

 

I don't understand this example. This is how I always go to Moho. It's not the easiest, but I don't know any other way. How exactly is this an example of "can't be done"?

That might be because you may need to see this threw other eyes then your own. Some might find it easy, some may find it tedious or difficult, and others would find it downright impossible.

I'm in the last group, wouldn't know where to start if my life depended on it.

[DoToH]

1 hour ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

This is how I always go to Moho

Without knowing your DV, the launch window and how much DV will take to get there?. Without using a simple calculator to crank the numbers in the rocket equation?. Just eyeballing your rocket, the transfer window and fiddling with maneuver nodes? trial and error? Hard  to believe, but if it is the case,  you are not the majority.

Edited March 31, 2018 by DoToH
spelling

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

3 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

That might be because you may need to see this threw other eyes then your own. Some might find it easy, some may find it tedious or difficult, and others would find it downright impossible.

This is entirely possible. I was mostly responding to the tone of "can't be done". I hate seeing it. I feel like if it's said enough, new players won't even try because they've been told it's not possible or "no fun". I would disagree with both of those statements.

Also, he mentioned skilled players. I've seen some incredibly skilled players on here. I'm sure you have as well. As I said, there's a difference between difficult and tedious. If he said "transfers without a tool are incredibly tedious and I'm not gonna waste my time", I would not be able to dispute such a thing (and obviously, we all spend our time the way we wish and have to decide for ourselves what a "waste" is).

[DoToH]

7 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

transfers without a tool are incredibly tedious and I'm not gonna waste my time

[snip] I can do the math, I know the equations and how to use them, but I don't want to waste my time.

By the way. I'm still impressed. You are the first person I meet who doesn't use a calculator for  ln(m0/m1).

 

[LoSBoL]

15 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

This is entirely possible. I was mostly responding to the tone of "can't be done". I hate seeing it. I feel like if it's said enough, new players won't even try because they've been told it's not possible or "no fun". I would disagree with both of those statements.

Also, he mentioned skilled players. I've seen some incredibly skilled players on here. I'm sure you have as well. As I said, there's a difference between difficult and tedious. If he said "transfers without a tool are incredibly tedious and I'm not gonna waste my time", I would not be able to dispute such a thing (and obviously, we all spend our time the way we wish and have to decide for ourselves what a "waste" is).

Thanks for clarifying, I understand where you are comming from.

I personally think that everything can indeed be done, its just way out of my capabilities. I wouldn't think that new players won't try because they've been told its not possible or fun. Everybody decides for themselves if they'd have fun learning that tedious or difficult 'stuff'. 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

[snip]

7 hours ago, DoToH said:

By the way. I'm still impressed. You are the first person I meet who doesn't use a calculator for  ln(m0/m1).

By the look of it, and your comment, I'll assume that's part of the rocket equation. I wouldn't know. Unlike you, I don't know the math or the equations or how to use them. I have exactly one tool at my disposal; but it's a good one. I just hit the Spacebar. Like magic, my rocket launches and I see how well it performs. It works extremely well.  [snip]

[Snark]

This thread has been extensively pruned due to personal attacks from multiple people, and a debate that devolved from "arguing about KSP" (which is fine) to "arguing about arguing" (which is not).

It's never okay to make personal comments about our fellow forum-goers. You're free to disagree with a person's statements-- but kindly leave the person themselves out of it.  Please, address the post, not the poster.

Also: don't take out your frustration on one person in the forum because you're frustrated at what other people have said, now or in the past.  People speak for themselves, and for themselves alone.  It's best for all of us to remember that.

Okay, unlocking the thread now.  I trust we can all behave ourselves like civil adults.  If you find that you can't respond without losing your composure, perhaps take a break until you've calmed down enough to respond civilly.

Thank you for your understanding.

[pandaman]

22 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

I just with they would finish these accursed bandaid updates already.

Sadly the only alternative is "no fixes at all", which IMO is worse.  Better to do 'band aids' for the worst wounds as soon as possible rather than leaving them to fester.

Ideally, hot fixes would not be as neccesary at all, but unfortinately they are, 

Edited April 1, 2018 by pandaman

[klgraham1013]

2 hours ago, pandaman said:

Sadly the only alternative is "no fixes at all", which IMO is worse.  Better to do 'band aids' for the worst wounds as soon as possible rather than leaving them to fester.

Ideally, hot fixes would not be as neccesary at all, but unfortinately they are, 

There were alternatives.

 Finishing the game with 1.3.3.  Not updating the engine again.  Not worrying about releasing before Take Two 's fiscal year ends.  Actually doing QA.

Squad put themselves in this position.  No need for excuses.  All we can do is hope that the next six month long surgery gets us back to where we were last version.

[Wallygator]

On 31/03/2018 at 2:05 PM, DoToH said:

This is false. They said (0.90 IIRC)  they wanted to add it, but got parked because the rush for 1.0. l can search the forum if you need proof.

Thanks for this.  Intent vs delivery is a thing - Let us all be vigilant in keeping our dev-team focused on delivering to their commitments, er even promises and thoughts   

On 31/03/2018 at 2:05 PM, DoToH said:

So we are doing. Lost my pichfork while protesting in the street, and came to the forum to show my rage. My constructive criticism ended with 1.0.

Well stated, very well stated. I stand with you, and others of the same ilk.

22 hours ago, klgraham1013 said:

Squad put themselves in this position.  No need for excuses

Yup - This.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Wallygator

[Bill Phil]

On 4/1/2018 at 5:29 AM, pandaman said:

Sadly the only alternative is "no fixes at all", which IMO is worse.  Better to do 'band aids' for the worst wounds as soon as possible rather than leaving them to fester.

Ideally, hot fixes would not be as neccesary at all, but unfortinately they are, 

Well, letting it fester does allow for more bugs to be found, although you'd eventually hit diminishing returns. And patching too fast can increase the number and/or severity of bugs.

Of course, the game is "released," so we're no longer playtesters.

[Jimbodiah]

The fact that there is still not even a simple dV indicator without using mods shows how detached Squad is from their game and doesn't give a rat's behind. Without mods this game is unbearable to play, it even took them years to acknowledge that the weak joints were an issue and not a feature as they kept selling it. I'm using 1.3.1 as if it's the last release of KSP that will ever come out, as 1.4 should never have been shipped and it seems QA was removed all together, issueing in the EoL phase of this game.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Jimbodiah

[Tewa]

The bug where contracts won't complete seems to be caused by right-clicking communications notifications to make them go away.

With 1.4 the communications notices were changed slightly. Instead of the tiny "envelope" icons from before, they're bars that you can right-click to dismiss. But doing that started making my contract segments no longer complete.

About a week ago I started dealing with communications the old-fashioned way, opening them up and clicking the trash-can delete icon. I haven't had a single problem with contracts ever since.

(This is on 1.4.1 still, haven't upgraded to 1.4.2.)