Duna Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Death Engineering]

20 hours ago, RoninFrog said:

How about Monopropellant as LS

This is interesting, as the original thread this post is derived from proposed that concept also. However, ISRU was not a factor in those dark days of pre-release so all the LS-RCS has to be dragged from the surface.

However, the mass itself wasn't the main concern, stated perfected below:

13 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

[The mission] requires a very complex (and heavy) system of greenhouses and algae farms and power supply, and water as well as ore drilling, in order to create a sustainable outpost.

So, the real question would be what would be the stock-game nerf to balance the extra mass, power requirements and flying/planning skill to land on a high-% daylight polar region? @borisperrons's suggestion of a high-mass part is a good concept, but there's the whole logistical thing to manage the mono-LS even if a reasonable formula could be reached.

I'm still open to the idea, but the concept needs more work to the effect of what else besides a drill and an ISRU unit would balance the concept to what comes built-in with mods?

And just out of curiosity, @RoninFrog have you considered using an LS mod? I would offer that the RCS-as-LS is a good concept for someone who is wholly against the idea of using a mod (for whatever reason), but still wants to taste the challenge. But to really get the best experience, I suggest an LS mod. As a side note, I did the RCS-as-LS on the original challenge and it was a real hassle.

 

 

[Laie]

12 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

I'm still open to the idea, but the concept needs more work to the effect of what else besides a drill and an ISRU unit would balance the concept to what comes built-in with mods?

In my attempt, I've been using TACLS which uses freeze-dried food. Drilling for water is trivial, and provides for the bulk of the mass. I'd have to look it up, but presume it's on the order of 50-60% mass saved, with one 1.25t drill.

[Death Engineering]

4 hours ago, Laie said:

freeze-dried food

Neat concept. Does that mean a polar landing?  I couldn't find a good reference for that function - is freeze-dried food part of a mod that adds on to TAC?

[Laie]

2 hours ago, Death Engineering said:

is freeze-dried food part of a mod that adds on to TAC?

Nope, that's just how it is. @TaranisElsu arrived at his numbers by carefully going through a NASA post-flight report that gave detailed numbers as to food consumed and garbage created. That was a shuttle flight, and hence the numbers are based on shuttle food: freeze-dried, single-serve, shrink-wrapped.

It's all laid out in a spreadsheet: Humans require 835g of actual food and 3909g of water per day. Kerbals, being smaller, require less. The food resource used by TACLS (and canonized in Community Ressource Pack) includes the packaging, which more than doubles the mass. As mentioned previously, that's not the kind of food you could grow in a greenhouse: for that, you better look at @RoverDude's mods utilizing Snacks and Mulch.

I've just done the numbers: in TACLS, including all overhead from packing and containers, drilling for water reduces the mass of resources shipments by 60%.

You don't even have to land on the poles: with a bit of luck (or saveloading, or savegame editing), you can find water anywhere on Duna. Only low concentrations, but then again, you don't need much: my single drill will easily provide for 100 Kerbals.

[RoninFrog]

I landed my base on Duna!  The day-counter has started...

[jinnantonix]

Checkpoint 2:

Transit Vehicle 2:

• Launch 3 (Y1 D412):   Prime mover and ISRU.  Refuels autonomously at Minmus then by aerobraking returns to Kerbin orbit with near full tanks
• Launch 4 (Y2 D172):   Habitat, greenhouse, algae farm, relays, with 2 Kerbals.  Land at Minmus and manufacture fuel and supplies.
• Launch 5 (Y2 D358):   Habitat, fuel tank, supply tank, Duna space station, backup Duna ascent vehicle
• Prime mover returns to Kerbin, taking fuel tank and supply tank to Minmus for filling.  
• Launch 6 (Y3 D118):   Habitat, assembly in Kerbin orbit with DSS and Backup DAV.
• Launch 7 (Y3 D304):   Habitat, assembly in Kerbin orbit
• Prime Mover (with large fuel tank) returns to Kerbin

• Launch Crew Shuttle (Y3 D310): Deliver 27 crew to the transit vehicle
• Transit vehicle burns to Minmus, prime mover picks up Minmus base and 2 crew and completes assembly of Transit Vehicle 2 (TV2)

Transit Vehicle 2, preparing to transit from Minmus to Duna

Edited July 9, 2020 by jinnantonix

[jinnantonix]

Checkpoint 3:  Year 4 Day 245

Transit Vehicle 2:

• Arrives at Ike low equatorial orbit, drops RA-2 relay satellite
• Refuels DSB and large tank with single land and launch,
• Transits adjusting to Duna low polar orbit, drop two RA-2 relay satellites
• DSB (skycrane) lands 29x Kerbals and docks outpost components
• DSB assembles Duna Space Station from remaining TV2 components
• DSB shuttles fuel and supplies progressively to the DSS (approx 2000 x LF and 1000 x NOMs / 100 days)

 

Spoiler

Duna Outpost (build complete after transit vehicle 2))

Fully self sustaining with 32 Kerbals.  Includes Duna Space Bus (skycrane assembler) and Duna Emergency Ascent Vehicle with 32 seats.

 

Duna Space Station. 

Support for 3 Kerbals (6 seats) with a science lab, NOM supply tank, and refueling tank for the DSB.  

 

Positive uplink:  

2 x RA-2 in close Duna polar orbit (diametrically opposed), 1 x RA-2 in Ike polar orbit, 1 x RA-100 in distant Duna polar orbit

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by jinnantonix

[Death Engineering]

On 7/14/2020 at 4:41 AM, jinnantonix said:

Checkpoint 3:  Year 4 Day 245

 

This is looking great. Had to visually reverse-engineer your DSB to understand the pods on top.. cool.     

I know that landing spot well having driving a polar Elcano last year.  

[jinnantonix]

1 hour ago, Death Engineering said:

This is looking great. Had to visually reverse-engineer your DSB to understand the pods on top.. cool.     

Yes, I leave the DSBs extra two seats in orbit for most of the assembly to increase efficiency, and then add the 2 seat module to create the DSB after outpost assembly is completed.

 

Quote

I know that landing spot well having driving a polar Elcano last year.  

I don't have a proper rover deployed yet - driving a rover around this area must have been a real challenge.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by jinnantonix

[Death Engineering]

11 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

driving a rover around this area

It was interesting..

edit: 

The rover for scale:

Edited July 21, 2020 by Death Engineering

[Death Engineering]

On 7/6/2020 at 2:18 PM, Laie said:

the numbers are based on shuttle food: freeze-dried, single-serve, shrink-wrapped

This is quite interesting.. I did not realize that. Makes sense why water is part of the math. Thanks for the info!   

[jinnantonix]

On 7/21/2020 at 10:09 PM, Death Engineering said:

It was interesting..

edit: 

The rover for scale:

Ahhh, a thud powered flying rover.  That makes sense.

[Death Engineering]

On 7/23/2020 at 8:49 PM, jinnantonix said:

Ahhh, a thud powered flying rover.  That makes sense.

It does.  

But we bled off all the fuel to keep the Elcano submission pure. 

 

[jinnantonix]

DOMA Redux

Checkpoint 4:

• Prime mover returns autonomously from Duna to Kerbin

Transit Vehicle 4:

• Launch 8 (Y4 D64):   Greenhouse + ISRU, 2 Kerbals (including engineer).  Docks with Prime mover and establishes base on Minmus for generating supplies
• Launch 9 (Y4 D350):  Fuel and supply tanks, assembly frames, Duna Emergency Ascent Vehicle (32 seats).  Initiate construction of Transit Vehicle 3 in Kerbin orbit.
• Launch 10 (Y5 D10):   Habitats and life support.  Construction of TV3  in Kerbin orbit.
• Launch 11 (Y5 D196):   ISRU, greenhouses, algae farms  Construction of TV3 in Kerbin orbit.

• Prime mover returns to Kerbin, taking fuel tank and supply tank to Minmus for filling.  
• Launch Crew Shuttle (Y5 D359): Deliver 22 crew to the transit vehicle
• TV3 transits Kerbin to Minmus

• Transit vehicle burns to Minmus, prime mover picks up Minmus base and 2 crew (total 24), supplies, and completes assembly of Transit Vehicle 3 (TV3)
• Prime Mover + ISRU fills fuel tanks, and docks with TV3 ready for transfer Minmus to Duna

 

Architectural notes.  

Only 4 launches from the KSC limits the size of this transit vehicle and therefore the number of Kerbals that can be transferred.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by jinnantonix

[jinnantonix]

DOMA Redux

Checkpoint 5:  Year 6 Day 248

Transit Vehicle 3:

• Transit from Minmus to Ike low equatorial orbit
• Refuels with single land and launch,
• Transits adjusting to Duna low polar orbit
• Prime Mover (skycrane) lands 24x Kerbals and docks outpost components

Architectural notes.  (Not shown in video)

• Total of 56 Kerbals in a self sustaining outpost at Y5 D248
• A second Duna Emergency Ascent Vehicle is delivered (total of 64 command seats across two craft).
• The Prime Mover is used to rendezvous the remaining TV3 components with the Duna Space Station
• Excess fuel and supplies are ferried to the DSS readying assembly components and tanks for an uncrewed autonomous return to Kerbin at Y7 D332

[SuicidalInsanity]

I remember trying this back in the day with a 30 0r 40 ton reusable SLV and a gimmick of doing no mission planning whatsoever - I had all the hardware built, but hadn't bothered with fine details like transfer window dates or launch manifest order past SLV 8 or so. Not that it got that far - lag from mult-hundred part vessels held together with too many docking ports saw the attempt die before anything got posted.

Always wanted to come back to this though, so, lets try this again (and officially enter the challenge this time):
Mods:
-None; pure stock
SLV:
-580 ton NPM
-Reusable: yes
-Turnaround: 8 years, 72 days

Everything a Duna outpost needs. Hopefully. If anything breaks or doesn't work as intended, replacements are a mere 8 years away! The lifter is a horrible kludge of clipped fuel tanks and engines because I was running out of space in the VAB and I needed to fit 44MN of thrust in there somehow.

Mission Update 1:
Y1, D50 - Y1, D90

Launch 1
-All planned hardware and crew orbited.
-Transit to Minmus
-Minmus refueling
 

Spoiler

Initial (and probably only) launch on day 50, for no particular reason. Looking back, it would have been advantageous to launch on day 150 - it would save 100 days of supplies that are going to be wastefully consumed whilst in Kerbin's SOI.

Booster separation and recovery. The techs will be able to lick all the salt off in 8 years-ish, at which point it could be potentially refueled and launched again.

Kerbin Station released. Don't mind the proximity to the radioactive nuclear engines, no one's actually going to be using this station, at least not for DOMA missions. Maybe mission control can recoup some costs by renting it out as a hotel.


And already there are problems. Because of the razor thin dV margins, a shakedown cruise to Minmus is undertaken. Kerbin's second moon was indicated as a viable location for ISRU operations, and this provides both opportunity to make sure everything works, as well as to cut the ultimate Duna dV injection burn cost almost in half once refueling is complete. However, 3 LV-Ns and their 0.03 TWR are not an effective means to propel 560 tons of hardware.


Fortunately, the ISRU tanker was designed to double as an emergency secondary Interplanetary Transfer Vehicle by docking both Duna Ascent Vehicles to it, so the miner, tanker, and both DAVs are offloaded and reassembled into a smaller sister ship, and the newly christened Deliberate Warranty Violation heads off to Minmus to begin ISRU operations.


Meanwhile, having improved its TWR from 0.3m/s to 0.4m/s, A Failure of Hubris begins the slow crawl out of Kerbin's gravity well over multiple orbits. Just imagine this picture 6 times for the full experience.


Mining! It takes a day to get from the orbiting DWV to the surface, a couple of days of mining, and a day back, followed by Doodnard taking full advantage of accommodations meant for 48 to rest, before going back again. Just imagine this picture 6 times for the full experience.


A Failure of Hubris finally arrives and rendezvous with Deliberate Warranty Violation, and both are refueled. Doodnard transfers back to AFOH and the wait for the transfer window begins.

Mission notes:
-The AFOH has 48 crew aboard.
-In addition to the 7200 LS ore in the Primary Supply Cache, the Duna base and ITV have an additional 1500 LS ore, for a total of 8700/(48*0.04) = 4531.25 days, or enough supplies to last until Y10, D321 (crew launched Y1,D50)
-The DAVs can carry 300 units of LS ore each (will need to be transferred from PSC), should they need to be used as backup ITV accommodations.

[James M]

Good God @SuicidalInsanity, That craft is an absolute Behemoth 

[sturmhauke]

Fairings? We don't need no stinking fairings!

[jinnantonix]

DOMA Redux

Checkpoint 6:

• Prime mover returns autonomously from Duna to Kerbin

Transit Vehicle 4:

• Launch 12 (Y5 D382):  Greenhouse + ISRU, 4 Kerbals (including engineer).  Docks with Duna Space Bus
• Launch 13 (Y6 D142):   Greenhouse + ISRU, 4 Kerbals (including engineer).  Transit to Minmus, and establishes base for generating supplies
• Launch 14 (Y6 D328):   Habitats and life support, Duna Emergency Ascent Vehicle (32 seats).  Initiate construction of Transit Vehicle 4 in Kerbin orbit.
• Launch 15 (Y7 D88):     ISRU, greenhouses, algae farms  Construction of TV4 in Kerbin orbit.
• Launch 16 (Y7 D274):   ISRU, greenhouses, algae farms  Construction of TV4 in Kerbin orbit.

• Duna Space Bus returns to Kerbin.  
• Launch Crew Shuttle (Y7 D403): Deliver 40 crew to the transit vehicle
• TV4 transits Kerbin to Minmus
• Prime mover picks up Minmus base and 4 crew (total 44), supplies, and completes assembly of Transit Vehicle 4 (TV4)
• Prime Mover + ISRU fills fuel tanks, and docks with TV4. 

• Transit (Y7 D403):  TV4 transfer Minmus to Ike
• Refuels with single land and launch,
• Transits from Ike adjusting to Duna low polar orbit
• Duna Space Bus (skycrane) lands 44x Kerbals and docks outpost components.  A total of 100 Kerbals on Duna.

 

 

Architectural notes:

• By using Duna Space Bus and components on return from Duna, and 5 launches from the KSC, Transit Vehicle 4 is so far the largest TV in this architecture, transporting 44 Kerbals.
• Due to KSP part count limitations, expansion of the existing outpost is not possible, so a new outpost is constructed 350m form the original site

Edited August 30, 2020 by jinnantonix

[Death Engineering]

On 8/27/2020 at 9:28 PM, SuicidalInsanity said:

Always wanted to come back to this though, so, lets try this again (and officially enter the challenge this time)

That is quite something. Good luck executing unpacking it all!   

 

On 8/28/2020 at 5:06 AM, jinnantonix said:

DOMA Redux 

These videos are great and a pleasure to watch!

 

[SuicidalInsanity]

Mission Update 2:
Y1, D90 - Y2, D13

-Kerbin departure
-Duna arrival
-All mission hardware deployed

Settle in, this update's a long one. Lots of waiting, followed by lots of frenetic activity, with no good place to split it in two.

Spoiler

The Ike Minmus miner has finished refueling the two vessels, and the crew settles to wait for the transfer window.
I've chosen Y1, D 199 for the departure date. Not the most optimum transfer date, but there's fuel to space courtesy of the ISRU performed during the Minmus layover.

A Failure of Hubris departs for Duna, and the crew wave goodbye to the homeworld.

Deliberate Warranty Violation follows immediately after, on a slightly faster trajectory, and will arrive ~ two days prior to the AFOH.

Y2, D06

Arrival. 382 days after launch, Kerbalkind's first interplanetary starship arrives above an alien world.

The DWV is disassembled into its component parts, and the DAVs are left in a 1000x1000 km parking orbit. The Ike Miner and Mining Lander head to Ike to begin refueling ops, and I discover an oops - The ISRU tanker is robotic, but the lander must be crewed. The Lander's engines are powerful enough to account for the added mass of the tanker, but reduces fuel to orbit by 66% per trip. The loss in efficiency is painful, but the soonest anything would be leaving would be Y3, D270-ish anyway, so not too big an issue.

Y2, D08

A Failure of Hubris arrives two days later, and that 0.04 TWR is really paying dividends. For full vicarious experience, stare at this screenshot for an hour.

Midway through the injection burn, the first pair of Relay Commsats are released, to take advantage of the Ike encounter.

The Injection burn is completed, and AFOH slips into a 1000x1000 km parking orbit around Duna, and disassembly of the ship commences. Seen here, the Duna shuttle, the Primary Supply Cache droppod, and the mobile colony base being deployed.

Followed by the rest of the ITV's rideshare payloads - the second pair of Relay Commsats, Duna orbital lab station, and the ISRU rover (still inside the ITV structural truss).

Y2, D09

Home is Where I parked It on final approach.

384 days after launch, on Y2, D09, 47 Kerbals and their mobile colony arrive on the surface of Duna, to much rejoicing and stretching of legs.

Y2, D10
47 crew? What happened to # 48?

The Duna Shuttle is manual, so Doodnard pilots the Shuttle down toward the base.

...And becomes the 48^th kerbal to set foot on Duna 1 day later. (Y2, D10)

Over the following few days, the remaining colony infrastructure is delivered from orbit, some with less accuracy than others.

Surface ISRU rover landed. At least it's mobile. If I'd been thinking straighter during the design phase, the ISRU components would have been integrated into the motherbase instead of a separate unit.

During this time, the disassembled AFOH ITV module breaks orbit and heads to Ike to refuel. The Ike Relay Commsat has executed its capture burn, Commsat 2 has done a plane change for a Duna polar orbit, and Commsat 4 is moving out to a future geostationary orbit.

9 years of food has arrived...

...more or less on target at the colony landing zone.

And the first Duna Ascent Vehicle begins its descent (after many simulations). Design flaw 3 - these things are aerodynamic, the header tanks make them reluctant to enter rear-first making retroburns difficult, and the lack of drogues makes precision aerocapture and landing... interesting.

Landed.

Followed immediately after by its twin, which possesses all the landing quirks of the first, but with the added fun of a night landing.

Good enough. Noting broke, and at least it's within sight of everything else.

Y2, D13

Final state of orbital assets by Y2, D13 (ignore the DAV and ISRU Rover still in parking orbit, this pic was taken before they were landed). The ITV and Ike Miner+Tanker are at Ike pending ISRU operations and refueling, with the Ike designated relay Commsat in orbit. The Polar Commsat has circularized. Of the second Commsat pair, one has remained in the 1000x1000km equatorial orbit where it was left, the other has entered a geostationary orbit above the colony.

Mission notes:
-Kerbals on Duna: 48
-Arrival date Y2, D9 (day 435)
-Main disadvantage so far with an All-in-One approach is everything ends up happening at once. KAC is highly recommended for anyone else thinking of attempting a similar non-distributed outpost plan.

-Achievements thus far:
Safety
  *Backup Plan
Robustness
  *Duna Space Station (3 kerbal capacity)
  *Duna Space Bus (9 seats support 4 crew should trips take 10+ days)
  *Deep Space transit (the ITV, once refueled, has 5400 dV)
Science
  *Deep Space Lab
Advanced Goals
  *Kerbin Space Station (still where I left it Update 1)
  *Positive Uplink (4 relay, 1x Ike orbit, 1x Polar orbit)
  *Advanced Deep Space Transit (Duna>Kerbin ~1.9k dV, Kerbin > Duna ~1.9k dV, ITV has 5.4k dV)
Mobility
  *? >50% crew access to EVA rovers ? (not actually sure about this one, does Full Crew Access to Pressurized Rovers supercede this?)
  * Full crew IVA Rover access (mobile base seats 48, with additional 2x 2 seat and 2x 10 seat parasite vehicles)
  *Home is where you park it (entire colony base is mobile)

  *Contingency plans (Backup Plan, Duna Station, Duna Shuttle, positive Uplink achieved)
 

Edited September 3, 2020 by SuicidalInsanity

[RoninFrog]

On 7/8/2018 at 7:24 PM, Death Engineering said:

At least 50% of the Duna crew have access to a seat in a Basic Rover during their outpost surface mission. (+1)

There are two things here that I don't understand completely.

1. Do 50% of the colonists have to have their own seat in a basic rover, or can they share the same seat?  For example, if I have 30 kerbals at my base, do I need 15 rover seats or just a couple?
2. Do the half the colonists have to have access to a basic rover for the entirety of their time on Duna, or do they just have to have access to one at some point in their mission?  For example, could I send the colonists a rover at the last launch window and still qualify?

[Death Engineering]

Hi @RoninFrog

For this Achievement:

• At least 50% of the Duna crew have access to a seat in a Basic Rover during their outpost surface mission. (+1)     [em. add.]

Although it wouldn't necessarily need to be for their entire stay, the spirit is that the crew would be mobile-enabled for a significant part of their mission. As far as the number of seats, it should be 15 seats for 30 kerbals.

[jinnantonix]

DOMA Redux

Checkpoint 7 (final):

• Prime mover returns autonomously from Duna to Kerbin

Transit Vehicle 5:

• Launch 17 (Y8 D34):  Kerbin Space Station, + 5 x Rovers + Outpost Science Lab + ADST seats
• Launch 18 (Y8 D220):   Large fuel and supplies tank
• Launch 19 (Y8 D406):   Space Ark Module 1 (25 seats)
• Launch  20 (Y9 D166):  Space Ark  Module 2 (25 seats)
• Launch 21 (Y9 D352):  Space Ark  Module 3 (25 seats)
• Launch 21 (Y10  D1):  Space Ark  Module 4 (25 seats)

• Prime Mover returns to Kerbin from Minmus, fully fueled
• Launch Crew Shuttle (Y10 D20): Deliver 2 crew to the transit vehicle
• TV5 transits Kerbin to Minmus
• Prime Mover + ISRU fills fuel tanks, and docks with TV5. 

• TV5 transfer Minmus to Ike
• Refuels with single land and launch,
• Transits from Ike adjusting to Duna low polar orbit

• Lab and 5 x Rovers are landed at the Duna Outpost
• Prime Mover Duna Space Bus (skycrane) and Space Ark rendezvous with Duna Space Station
• Prime Mover docks with 10 seat module and Large fuel tank, creating the Advances Duna Space Transit Vehicle (ADST)

Architectural Notes:

• The ADST with 1 large tanks has a dV of about 5000m/s , and so has plenty of fuel for a transit to Kerbin and back.
• The Rovers each have 2 Cuppola pressured seats, and 8 command seats in a Mk2 enclosure.
• The DSB is capable of "hopping" a Rover to any location on Duna and return to the Outpost.
• At Year 10, there are 100 Kerbals on the surface, and fully self sustaining.  An additional 2 Kerbals arrived with Transit Vehicle 5
• The Duna Space Station has room for 3 Kerbals long term and a lab, plus a 100 seat Space Ark capable of returning all Kerbals to Kerbin
• There are 3 Emergency Ascent Vehicles at the Outpost, with a total of 102 command seats.  Each is capable of reaching orbit, and rendezvous with the Space Arc.

 

 

[jinnantonix]

DOMA Redux

Well, it's been a marathon, but finally here is my submission:

Scoring

Spoiler

Colonisation as follows:

• 5 Kerbals at Day 494
• 32 Kerbals at Day 1431
• 56 Kerbals at Day 2378
• 100 Kerbals at Day 3300

All achievements except the following:

• Emergency Evac: if the 'Backup plan' ascent system is utilized with any kerbal on board. (+3)  This was tested and scored , but not shown in the videos.
• At least 50% of the Duna crew have access to a seat in a Basic Rover during their outpost surface mission. (+1)  This was scored noting this was only achieved at Transit 5
• Every crew member has access to a Pressurized Rover seat. (+2)  Not scored
• The outpost is land-mobile/Pressurized Rover (Habitation rule applies). (+3)  Not scored

Total = 25

Total Score:

• Mission Value: 153574
• NPM: 31 tons (21 launches) 
• Efficiency: 153574 / (31*21) = 235.9
• Achievements: 25

 

 

• Video  Standard Launch Vehicle
• Video  Transit 1 
• Video  Transit 2
• Video  Transit 3
• Video  Transit 4
• Video  Transit 5