Should students be allowed to use a calculator in math classes?

[YNM]

1 hour ago, Reactordrone said:

Back in my day we had to do all the basic arithmetic by hand until year 10

I only used calculator regularly once in uni. Through elementary, junior high and high school they're never allowed in exams (even when the exams are on computer !).

56 minutes ago, Nuke said:

so it is still useful skill to be able to do math to solve problems in the field where you might not have access to a calculator

Indeed, like when working on a frontier project (say, making a road through pure wilderness).

Also, if your cashier can't do calculation by mind quickly, small wonder we're replacing them in most cases since the old days.

While it doesn't seem necessary to master basic calculation anymore, it is still necessary to validate the results given by our electronic aids. It's also the reason that while most engineers would have a software to help their work they still have to learn what is it the program actually doing - it's to get a feeling whether the results are sensible or not.

[p1t1o]

The harder school is, the easier life is.

[wumpus]

[moved to the top as it seems to fit the exact topic of this thread perfectly]

5 hours ago, Nuke said:

that said i think we spend way to much time on basic math in school. i hated coming to class, and get handed a page of 50 long division problems and that was it. i wasnt learning anything, all you are doing is drilling for speed. which in a technological society is better done with a piece of silicon. the amount of time spent on review was absurd. thats time you could be using to teach higher math.

To be honest, this is probably doing more damage than good (and I hope the "new core" helps teach the math behind calculation.  It sounds like it is).  After so much calculation you aren't likely to get any better, and typically you will simply just pull out your phone and click on the calculator app anyway when confronted with multiple digit calculation.  Not only that, it really doesn't help prepare you at all for any next steps in math.  That said, I've certainly benefited from absolutely solid algebra, and it works well in just about every electronic aspect I've run across in decades.  Other technical disciplines might need differential equations (my skill has decayed a bit ) in a similar way, but probably with limits (and wolfram can get you out of the sticky bits).

13 hours ago, Just Jim said:

I'm trying to remember... I think it was 9 or 10th grade, and I was taking Trig, when we were allowed to use them in high school.

And we we allowed to have them in Physics class.

But you had to know how to do everything the hard way, first.  Calculators were just time savers later on.

This was in New York, in the late 1970's.

By the 1980s, we were required to buy programmable calculators for physics (II) class (and used that feature for something like one calculation... kind of stupid in retrospect.  Although the same calculator got me all the way through college).

In college, physics and other hard sciences/engineering courses would often through in algebraic terms inside a bunch of calculations, and the other students seemed to have a lot of problems with them.  I never understood why: you just handle the variables exactly like any other term, it just didn't go through the calculator.  Perhaps they didn't like carrying around so many terms around instead of combining them all into one number with the calculator.

10 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

True that.

Speaking of calculus I'm not even in college and I'm wondering why in the world I need to know how to take the derivative of a logarithmic function.

Take a look at how the rocket equation was derived.  I'm pretty sure it needs the derivative of the log in there somewhere...  Most of the math for KSP is using logs and exponents somewhere.

5 hours ago, Nuke said:

 like most cashiers are not trusted to do math on their own when the system crashes and so they twiddle their thumbs while someone finds the technician (ive actually been that technician, with a business loosing hundreds of dollars every hour for a problem that can be solved with four keystrokes).

Actually the cashiers aren't trusted not to lift from the till, so can't work when the register is down (that's also the whole reason for the receipt and cash register itself, to keep the cashiers honest).  Oddly enough, I've worked both sides of the job (repair and cashier).  Also, although I can easily work out weird change to buy things, it makes more sense to do it the "official" way behind the cash register to avoid that slightest danger of getting it wrong (if the cash register gets it wrong that isn't my problem).

[YNM]

1 hour ago, wumpus said:

it makes more sense to do it the "official" way behind the cash register to avoid that slightest danger of getting it wrong (if the cash register gets it wrong that isn't my problem).

Don't you have anything like this ?

You'd have a 2nd or even a 3rd copy just behind it using carbon paper. We still use them very often, also handy as a backup if the system is down for whatever reason (for those that do have cash registers).

Edited December 18, 2018 by YNM

[cubinator]

6 hours ago, YNM said:

Don't you have anything like this ?

You'd have a 2nd or even a 3rd copy just behind it using carbon paper. We still use them very often, also handy as a backup if the system is down for whatever reason (for those that do have cash registers).

Where I live, everything tends to be heavily reliant on electronics. In college, I haven't had to touch a paper bill in weeks. It got me confused today when I actually had to interact with physical money.

[YNM]

1 hour ago, cubinator said:

It got me confused today when I actually had to interact with physical money.

When your largest denomination is only worth 7 USD...

We still have to interact with physical money. Electronic means are gaining grounds but in the end the only form of money everyone accepts is hard cash.

Spoiler

Smallest note is only 7 cents (also the largest coin)

Smallest coin that's still in regular use is only 0.7 cents.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by YNM

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, cubinator said:

Where I live, everything tends to be heavily reliant on electronics. In college, I haven't had to touch a paper bill in weeks. It got me confused today when I actually had to interact with physical money.

I had to mail something for the second time this year just this week. I took it to the post office because it's cheaper (I was out anyway) than buying stamps and losing them. I had a single ten dollar bill in my wallet for the 50 cent stamp cost and was slightly surprised. I have no idea how long it's been in there.

[razark]

I like to use physical money.  It means I get change back.  The change goes into a bottle.  When the bottle is full, I take it to the bank, pour it into a machine, and get a surprise gift of money.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, razark said:

I like to use physical money.  It means I get change back.  The change goes into a bottle.  When the bottle is full, I take it to the bank, pour it into a machine, and get a surprise gift of money.

That happens to me with my credit card. Every month or so I get $50 for free.

[Nightside]

@Pawelk198604, I decided to go to college again at age 30, to study civil engineering with pretty much zero math background (I studied Literature the first time). Along the way I had easy and hard math classes but the very best math teacher (differential equations) did not ban calculators, instead he made them irrelevant.

The problems would end up having gravity equal to PI²  or something which would cause all the actual numbers to cancel out and actually test your understanding of the diff EQ, not the algebra. It was one of the most difficult classes I've ever taken and I applied myself way harder than in "easier" classes. 

Anyway, the calculator can be a crutch but it can also be a powerful tool, if a teacher has a reason to ban it, it might be valid, however, the person you describe sounds like a jerk.

[razark]

1 minute ago, 5thHorseman said:

That happens to me with my credit card. Every month or so I get $50 for free.

There's still something about the clink clink clink as the coins land inside, and the heft of a full bottle.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, razark said:

the heft of a full bottle

What do you think I spend that $50 on?

[kerbiloid]

They should be allowed to use paper and pencil.

And scalpel.
 

Spoiler

https://www.sliderulemuseum.com/SR_Scales.htm

https://www.evilmadscientist.com/2009/wallet-size-led-resistance-calculator/

On 12/18/2018 at 3:13 AM, Pawelk198604 said:

My mother's teacher was before 30, but so he liked to beat students

He is now a high-ranked alpha-male at last, not just a student. why not.

On 12/18/2018 at 7:46 AM, 5thHorseman said:

Are you a Lyft driver or a rocket scientist?

Aren't all of us here?

19 hours ago, p1t1o said:

The harder school is, the easier life is.

This man knows everything about that.

Spoiler

(and yes, I mean the actor)

 

P.S.
Lifehack 1. Some calculators have the nice ability to use memory registers or program code to store cheat sheets.

Lifehack 2. Some hand watches have a calculator.

Edited December 19, 2018 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

4 hours ago, razark said:

I like to use physical money.  It means I get change back.

You also have an actual idea of how many you have spent or received. With electronic ones it's just a bunch of numbers.

48 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

memory registers or program code

There are clear rules against the use of graphing or programmable calculators here.

[Superfluous J]

38 minutes ago, YNM said:

You also have an actual idea of how many you have spent or received. With electronic ones it's just a bunch of numbers.

An amusing criticism of the method in a mathematics thread.

I always know how much I've spent and received, and do 0 work for it. I can't get my wallet to display a handy history of every cash transaction for the past few years.

[DDE]

18 hours ago, wumpus said:

Actually the cashiers aren't trusted not to lift from the till, so can't work when the register is down (that's also the whole reason for the receipt and cash register itself, to keep the cashiers honest).

That, and you can then try to legislatively force all registers to be online and help collect data for VAT and alcohol/tobacco excises.

Which allows a tiny encryption chip to knacker the commerce in much of the country for a day.

https://www.rbc.ru/business/20/12/2017/5a3a492f9a794755b70aa7cd

Edited December 19, 2018 by DDE

[YNM]

2 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I can't get my wallet to display a handy history of every cash transaction for the past few years.

Well, you can tell how many have you spent in a day or a week or a month. Which is handy if that's all your margin.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, YNM said:

Well, you can tell how many have you spent in a day or a week or a month. Which is handy if that's all your margin.

True. I've not lived paycheck to paycheck since about the same time I stopped using cash. I wonder if the two are related?

[YNM]

3 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I've not lived paycheck to paycheck since about the same time I stopped using cash. I wonder if the two are related? 

Well... I have two things to say :

- Maybe it is, given people who don't have much to save probably can't save, and

- I hope you're not in a huge debt...

Edited December 19, 2018 by YNM

[Superfluous J]

3 minutes ago, YNM said:

Well... I have two things to say :

- Maybe it is, given people who don't have much to save probably can't save, and

- I hope you're not in a huge debt...

I'm not. I got divorced 12 years ago and have been debt free for 11.

[magnemoe]

On 12/18/2018 at 3:57 PM, wumpus said:

Actually the cashiers aren't trusted not to lift from the till, so can't work when the register is down (that's also the whole reason for the receipt and cash register itself, to keep the cashiers honest).  Oddly enough, I've worked both sides of the job (repair and cashier).  Also, although I can easily work out weird change to buy things, it makes more sense to do it the "official" way behind the cash register to avoid that slightest danger of getting it wrong (if the cash register gets it wrong that isn't my problem).

This depend a lot on the shop, many smaller ones can operate without system. Its more an governmental issue with shops selling stuff off the books. 
Shops also use the  registered sales to schedule deliveries, as they know initial inventory and how much is sold they know how much is left
Its ways for the cashiers to fool the system even with an cash register, one common issue with using young temps is that they can do deals with friends, classic is just register one beer of an 6 pack. So friend buy 24 beer but pay for 4 and you get 12. 
 

[kerbiloid]

And sometimes the price tags are not just price tags.
Sometimes they advise the salesman which strategy to choose dealing with that particular microwave oven model of a hundred similar on the shelf.
Say, prices ending with ⁹⁸ can mean "first try to make this loser buy it, as we have a whole room of this garbage".
Say, code ⁸⁵ can mean "if he buys this, give him a 10% discount".

From time to time they change the codes.
So, not just a calculator is needed, but a good memory, too.

Edited December 19, 2018 by kerbiloid