History and Parts Pack and Free Update Delayed

[Chel]

10 minutes ago, Agarwel said:

Well, they are fixing "few issues" since june 2018

This time they're holding it back to fix some issues to make it better for us, the players. They're doing a good thing

[Snark]

I've been reading through this thread, and I confess that I'm a bit puzzled.  I get that a fair number of folks are upset, but I'm having trouble understanding exactly what they're upset about, here.

I get the impression that people are unhappy that Squad delayed the release after discovering some problems.  That seems like a good thing to me (I mean, that's better than releasing with problems, right?), so I'm puzzled why people would be angry about that.  But clearly people must have some reason for being upset-- I'd like to understand better.  Perhaps someone would care to clarify?

Here are three possible scenarios:

1. Squad announces a date.  Then releases, with a problem that causes grief for players.
2. Squad announces a date.  Then discovers a problem.  Then announces a delay, while the problem is addressed before releasing.
3. Squad doesn't announce any date at all, until it's actually released.

#1 has happened before, and console players have been (quite understandably) upset about that.  So I'll assume that we're all agreed that #1 is not what anyone wants.  That means we're left with a choice between #2 and #3.

#2 is what Squad did, here.  If folks are unhappy about that, then... does that mean they'd prefer #3 as an alternative?  (Because Squad has done #3 before, and on those occasions, folks complained about lack of information.)

So why, exactly, are people unhappy that Squad has on this occasion, 1. been more informative/transparent than in the past, and 2. decided not to release when there's a problem?  I'm sure you have your reasons, I'd just like to better understand what those reasons may be.

[RealKerbal3x]

3 minutes ago, Snark said:

-snip-

I feel like sometimes people just want to complain for whatever reason, no matter what SQUAD does.

They release with a major bug, people complain about them not testing properly.

They announce a release date but then have to delay, people complain about having to wait.

They don't mention any particular date, people complain about a lack of information.

It's really a lose-lose situation for them.

[Snark]

1 minute ago, RealKerbal3x said:

I feel like sometimes people just want to complain for whatever reason, no matter what SQUAD does.

Let's not minimize people's frustration.  They're unhappy.  People feel what they feel, and they generally have reasons for that.

As a KSP player who loves playing this game, I'm always sad to see someone who's unhappy with their experience-- so I'd like to understand that better.

 

[HebaruSan]

It sounds like people are upset about this part:

9 minutes ago, Snark said:

discovering some problems

In other words...

 

[sicko kerman]

16 minutes ago, Snark said:

I've been reading through this thread, and I confess that I'm a bit puzzled.  I get that a fair number of folks are upset, but I'm having trouble understanding exactly what they're upset about, here.

I get the impression that people are unhappy that Squad delayed the release after discovering some problems.  That seems like a good thing to me (I mean, that's better than releasing with problems, right?), so I'm puzzled why people would be angry about that.  But clearly people must have some reason for being upset-- I'd like to understand better.  Perhaps someone would care to clarify?

Here are three possible scenarios:

1. Squad announces a date.  Then releases, with a problem that causes grief for players.
2. Squad announces a date.  Then discovers a problem.  Then announces a delay, while the problem is addressed before releasing.
3. Squad doesn't announce any date at all, until it's actually released.

#1 has happened before, and console players have been (quite understandably) upset about that.  So I'll assume that we're all agreed that #1 is not what anyone wants.  That means we're left with a choice between #2 and #3.

#2 is what Squad did, here.  If folks are unhappy about that, then... does that mean they'd prefer #3 as an alternative?  (Because Squad has done #3 before, and on those occasions, folks complained about lack of information.)

So why, exactly, are people unhappy that Squad has on this occasion, 1. been more informative/transparent than in the past, and 2. decided not to release when there's a problem?  I'm sure you have your reasons, I'd just like to better understand what those reasons may be.

They gave us a release date and delayed it at the last minute PC players get updated all the time but the last time console got an update was 8 months ago AND they won't give us any info

[RealKerbal3x]

6 minutes ago, sicko kerman said:

They gave us a release date and delayed it at the last minute PC players get updated all the time but the last time console got an update was 8 months ago AND they won't give us any info

PC players never get release dates (we only have the rather vague 'every 3 months'). Plus, aren't you happy that they decided to delay so that they wouldn't release another broken console update?

[Snark]

36 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

In other words...

Well, sure.  I mean, I ship code for a living, and have been doing so for a few decades now, so I understand that "shipping a software product" is not like "mowing a lawn"-- i.e. that one can't just say "okay, there's X amount of work to do, and we can do Y work per time interval, so we just calculate X/Y and that tells us how long it will be."

And, since I work inside the "sausage factory" of software development, I also understand that all sorts of miscellaneous unexpected problems-- from unexpected bugs, to unexpected bureaucratic delays in certification, etc.-- are basically unavoidable.

But not everyone has that perspective-- it's easy to get upset based on misunderstandings, particularly if one isn't in the business of shipping software for a living (as indeed most folks aren't).  And also, people have all kinds of reasons for being upset-- just because I don't have visibility into the reasons doesn't mean that the reasons are necessarily, well, unreasonable.

33 minutes ago, sicko kerman said:

They gave us a release date and delayed it at the last minute

Right.  So what I'm asking is, why does that make you angry?

I'm not being dismissive here-- I'm sure you have your reasons, I'd just like to understand what they are.

For example, if you're angry about what they did, I assume that means you would have been happier if they did something different.  So, which of the following alternatives would you have preferred?

• They never give you a release date.
• They give you a release date, and then stick rigidly to that date and ship a product with bad problems.

To me, both of those alternatives sound worse than what they've done, but I understand that not everyone wants or likes the same thing.  So what would you have preferred that they did instead, and why?

33 minutes ago, sicko kerman said:

PC players get updated all the time but the last time console got an update was 8 months ago

Well, sure.  That's because KSP is primarily developed as a PC game; always has been, since day one.  That's where all the devs are doing their work.  That's also where I assume Squad does most of their business, so it makes sense that they'd give that area most of their attention.  (I don't actually know that, but it stands to reason-- if most of their business was on the console, I'd assume that it would be the console that would get most of the updates, and the PC players that would have to wait.)

It's also the case that releasing a game for console is much more complicated and involved than releasing for the PC, due to fairly byzantine and laborious bureaucratic red tape that the console manufacturers impose-- the certification and release process is a serious burden.  It's much quicker, easier, and all-around-less-work to do a PC release.  So it also stands to reason that console updates would be less frequent.

It's also worth noting that consoles and PCs are very different programming environments.  That may not be at all obvious to the player, since what you see on the screen looks pretty much the same either way.  But under the hood?  Really, really different.  Different challenges, different design tradeoffs.

Which means that if you're a company that's releasing a product on both platforms, you're basically left with two crappy choices.  Either you can develop primarily on one platform and then regularly port to the other (which is crappy because porting is a massive expensive pain in the butt), or else you can just develop it independently in parallel on the two platforms (which is crappy because you're constantly reinventing the wheel and doing twice as much work).

TL;DR:  Cross-platform development is hard, and ugly.  My observation is that it's pretty rare for a game to be a great experience in both places.  That's really hard, because of how the technical details work.

So instead, usually what happens is that companies just develop on one side or the other-- producing a pretty good product-- and then they port to the other side (which gets a rougher experience).  That's how it works for practically everything I've seen.  Either you have a game that's primarily developed on the PC (and then the console experience is rough), or else you have a game that's primarily developed on the console (and then the PC experience is rough).

33 minutes ago, sicko kerman said:

they won't give us any info

But they did.  They announced a date, and you're still angry.  When they discovered there'd be a delay, they announced that, too.  If they hadn't announced anything, that would be less info.  So what is it, exactly that you want?  When you say that you want "more info"... what info, exactly, do you want?

24 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Plus, aren't you happy that they decided to delay so that they wouldn't release another broken console update?

Well, obviously the unhappy people aren't happy, or they wouldn't be unhappy, now would they?  Presumably they have their reasons.  I would have phrased this as, "would you have preferred that they release early-and-broken?  if you don't like what they did, what would you have preferred that they do instead?"

[wizzlebippi]

@Snark

I wouldn't say I'm angry about the delay. I understand the development process enough to know that these things happen. I'm frustrated to have a last minute delay, and I know this means we're looking at the first week of April at the earliest to see this patch and more parts.

[jagfour]

Squad have done exactly the right thing. Keep it up Squad.

 

Anyone think that a certain Shuttle launch should have been delayed a bit more?

[MajorFizz31]

Have you heard anything on the Xbox certification time yet? Maybe Monday or Tuesday??

[Jebediah Kerman Jr.]

1 hour ago, RealKerbal3x said:

PC players never get release dates (we only have the rather vague 'every 3 months'). Plus, aren't you happy that they decided to delay so that they wouldn't release another broken console update?

At least they get updates every three months. Be happy with that, we get updates very rarely.

 

29 minutes ago, jagfour said:

Squad have done exactly the right thing. Keep it up Squad.

 

Anyone think that a certain Shuttle launch should have been delayed a bit more?

[Lisias]

30 minutes ago, jagfour said:

Anyone think that a certain Shuttle launch should have been delayed a bit more?

I could not said it better, sir. I wish I could "react" to your post twice.

[coyotesfrontier]

I can't believe the immaturity I'm seeing in this thread. It's a short delay, and people are acting like SQUAD committed war crimes. I feel like people try to find any excuse to criticize SQUAD, as if they're as bad as something like EA. It could be a lot worse, people. How would you feel about a KSP where every part is locked behind a $1.99 micropayment, variants are unlocked by a lootbox system, and where the game can't be run unless you have a stable internet connection?

tl,dr: A small delay is nothing, and people are blowing it out of proportion.

[Jebediah Kerman Jr.]

Just now, coyotesfrontier said:

I can't believe the immaturity I'm seeing in this thread. It's a short delay, and people are acting like SQUAD committed war crimes. I feel like people try to find any excuse to criticize SQUAD, as if they're as bad as something like EA. It could be a lot worse, people. How would you feel about a KSP where every part is locked behind a $1.99 micropayment, variants are unlocked by a lootbox system, and where the game can't be run unless you have a stable internet connection?

tl,dr: A small delay is nothing, and people are blowing it out of proportion.

Thank you. There is a lot of immaturity. While we have not received any real updates for almost a year, while PC players have been showered with new content, that's no reason to call each other names. Squad should work on giving us parity with PC, but be more patient. After all, they aren't even a video game developer.

[dr.phees]

4 minutes ago, coyotesfrontier said:

tl,dr: A small delay is nothing, and people are blowing it out of proportion.

Thank you, words of sanity.

[scimas]

Oh wow, this thread.. I understand that consoles don't get updates often. I'm on PC myself, but I have also upvoted comments in the old weekly news threads that criticized SQUAD for not saying anything about console updates. But be patient, they will release an update. And it's always better to have a delayed update than a broken update. 

You want to see what happens when SQUAD tries to stick to a schedule even when they shouldn't? Go check out the 1.4 release thread and the discussion around that time. If only SQUAD hadn't stuck to the schedule worked more on QC, that update would have been far better. 

[Nick99898]

9 hours ago, pooplol629 said:

nope you wont not a month try 8 months to a whole year

You would have to be mentally challenged to announce a release date more than a year after starting work on the update, and then release 8 months after the release date. If they anouced it's release then it was verry close to finished. Especially if they released a week after they announce it. 

[sicko kerman]

 

i emailed  KSP a while ago *politly* talking about the upcoming update and I say politly because I don't want people to think I am being rude I genuinely like KSP and the developers I said I had only been playing the game for around 5 months and been in the forums for less than one and wasn't sure how long delayed usually take. Uomo/Chris wrote back and basically told me that this shouldn't take too long at all he said they are minor bugs anyway. So people don't need to be super bummed out I personally don't think this should take that long either  

great costumer support @SQUAD 

[Kerbinchaser]

I don't think you can win here.

1. People are mad that update is delayed
2. People are mad that update was released on time with bugs. 

 

[Lisias]

29 minutes ago, Lo Var Lachland said:

I don't think you can win here.

1. People are mad that update is delayed
2. People are mad that update was released on time with bugs. 

 

A = People are Mad
B = When Release is delayed
C = When Release is bugged
A = B v C

But since Releases are always bugged or delayed, B v C == True. So

A = True

Ergo: People are Mad.

There's no point on arguing about Logic Tautologies.  

[Yakuzi]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

A = People are Mad
B = When Release is delayed
C = When Release is bugged
A = B v C

But since Releases are always bugged or delayed, B v C == True. So

A = True

Ergo: People are Mad.

There's no point on arguing about Logic Tautologies.  

You forgot A² = B ^ C

[Slay3r_fire]

3 hours ago, coyotesfrontier said:

I can't believe the immaturity I'm seeing in this thread. It's a short delay, and people are acting like SQUAD committed war crimes. I feel like people try to find any excuse to criticize SQUAD, as if they're as bad as something like EA. It could be a lot worse, people. How would you feel about a KSP where every part is locked behind a $1.99 micropayment, variants are unlocked by a lootbox system, and where the game can't be run unless you have a stable internet connection?

tl,dr: A small delay is nothing, and people are blowing it out of proportion.

I think most are upset for the fact of the issues we are still experiencing from time to time and we are do for an update

[KosmoNot79]

2 hours ago, sicko kerman said:

 

i emailed  KSP a while ago *politly* talking about the upcoming update and I say politly because I don't want people to think I am being rude I genuinely like KSP and the developers I said I had only been playing the game for around 5 months and been in the forums for less than one and wasn't sure how long delayed usually take. Uomo/Chris wrote back and basically told me that this shouldn't take too long at all he said they are minor bugs anyway. So people don't need to be super bummed out I personally don't think this should take that long either  

great costumer support @SQUAD 

I messaged Oumo and he said the next newsletter is coming out next month so we will get some info on the details soon.

[Curveball Anders]

5 hours ago, Snark said:

TL;DR:  Cross-platform development is hard, and ugly.

It's worse, and uglier, since KSP is developed by Squad for Windows, Linux and Mac.

Then ported to consoles by Blitworks (and then checked by Squad).

So development cycles within development cycles, and then add that each console needs to be accepted by the powers that be for each console (and sometimes even regional).