Rational Resources 3.0.2 [Sep 24, 2024]

[JadeOfMaar]

@vagabond77 It will fork fine in 1.8.1 and even 1.7.x.

[vagabond77]

wonderful.

[somnambulist]

@JadeOfMaar  Is there a best practice on sparing resources from Rational Resources' purge? I'm assuming adding a tag on a before pass would be enough, but wanted to check if you had a better way:

@GLOBAL_RESOURCE:BEFORE[RationalResources] {
	@ResourceName = Karbonite
	%Tag = Spared
}

@PLANETARY_RESOURCE:BEFORE[RationalResources] {
	@ResourceName = Karbonite
	%Tag = Spared
}

Karbonite is handwavium but, for my own game, I want to rebalance it as a hard-to-exploit endgame resource. 

[JadeOfMaar]

@somnambulist There's a best practice, yes. You have it but you didn't place the resource name properly. You shouldn't need the :BEFORE pass.

@GLOBAL_RESOURCE:HAS[@ResourceName[Karbonite]]:BEFORE[RationalResources] {
	%Tag = Spared
}

@PLANETARY_RESOURCE:HAS[@ResourceName[Karbonite]]:BEFORE[RationalResources] {
	%Tag = Spared
}

The Karbonite mod (already) contains the end-game, hard-to-exploit resource, Karborundum. Perhaps use that instead and save yourself some of the trouble of rebalancing Karbonite. If I may add, I perceive it to be a crystalline substance (perhaps I subconsciously equate it to Energon crystal from the Beast Wars/Transformers metaverse).

Edited May 18, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[somnambulist]

12 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The Karbonite mod (already) contains the end-game, hard-to-exploit resource, Karborundum. 

Thanks for your help! I'm planning to add Karbonite and Karborundum back -- Karbonite nerfed so it's slightly more common than standard Karborundum,  with Karborundum rebalanced as a trace deposit found alongside Karbonite.

[JadeOfMaar]

I take it things are already working as you hoped?

[somnambulist]

I'll post back once I have a chance to implement and test — I'm "multitasking" while copying files down over my work's VPN. 

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Couple of comments/questions as I've been playing with RR and JNSQ --

1. Many PLANETARY_RESOURCE definitions have "PresenceChance = 1000". Isn't this number expressed as a percent, 0-100? What does 1000 do? Does 100% mean "100% chance of being in at least one biome" and 1000% mean "100% chance of being in every biome" or something like that?
2. The ISRU patch allows conversion of (presumably) gaseous Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Methane, etc. to Lqd______ form. However, some conversions use the gas to produce things - e.g. the CO2 spliiter uses CarbonDioxide, not LqdCO2. Right now, there's no way to convert Lqd_______ back to a gas. It seems like there needs to be an additional converter for each Lqd____ resource,; presumably you can make a gas out of the Lqd___ version without too much trouble in your ISRU if you can make a Lqd___ out of the gas.
3. OR,  the ISRU chains for certain things could be simplified and abstracted a bit to avoid having to have 10 converters purely dedicated to phase changes. Things like Nitrogen, Methane (etc.) seem to be treated as gases, but they are crustal resources in some templates and can be mined by drillomatics too. If those resources are meant as abstractions of three things put together: <resource>-rich solids, AND hypothetical gas vents (or gas pockets, or something), AND also ices you might find in a crust, e.g. solid CO2 on Duna, then ISRU chains could be simplified and made a bit more intelligible for the user by placing all of the non-Lqd forms as a "first step" in conversions, and generally reserving the Lqd forms for rocket fuels. For instance, there doesn't seem to be a point to having both Ammonia and LqdAmmonia (so far as I can tell! maybe I'm missing something); the phase change serves no purpose except adding complexity and an additional tank (same with LqdOxygen, which doesn't seem to be used by anything). For Ammonia, too, it might be possible to remove LqdAmmonia from some biomes (cold oceans?) and replace it simply with Ammonia just to avoid the second tank and additional converter that don't have a function right now. Possibly.
4. Intake rates for gaseous resources, such as they are patched in to the air scoop (whatever that air intake is called), are very high - nearly instantaneously fills a tank. I think the effective intake airspeed being set to mach 8.75 when stationary is perhaps a bit extreme

[JadeOfMaar]

21 hours ago, AccidentalDisassembly said:

Couple of comments/questions as I've been playing with RR and JNSQ --

1. There's this thing where if you enter Difficulty Settings and reduce resource abundance that apparently, presence chance is also affected. The ones that have a 1000 chance value are therefore set so that when the 1000 is divided by the difficulty settings fraction, it still returns > 100% so it will still always appear.
2. That's a thing I'm aware that I would end up stumbling over in the beginning. The resource chains in question do require a heater or de-compressor part. Soon™ enough I will have a new part just for that and new models to replace the converter boxes. Originally I named this mod "Realistic Resources" which is why the gas forms and extra ISRU steps are there. I regret having done that. However it would be very discomforting to, by definition, redefine Kerbin's atmosphere to be composed of LqdNitrogen...
3. The gas form resources are available in atmosphere and in crusts: I see them as solid and like snow/ an ice cap, or sedimentary layers, and not as gas pockets. The liquid forms of these resources don't entirely exist for use as fuel. Nothing uses pure Nitrogen as a propellant. A major part of why they're there is for use by life support mods, especially Kerbalism, and some planet makers would be happy to have these resources present and in-game in their oceans. This mod exists to enrich planet packs for life support compatibility as well as to encourage making fuel for engines that don't use stock fuel, and making industrial resource gatherin games more challenging.
4. The intake rates are super high so that they're useable in super thin atmo like JNSQ Duna, or OPM's Thatmo. When you sit perfectly still (with lower speed settings), the intakes will then produce nothing and will waste the effort you spent to build your NASA-inspired Duna atmo ISRU base because the stock atmo harvesting system is broken in that way. Harvester rate is scaled by atmo pressure, static air speed, and for whatever reason, how fast your craft is moving, with no regard for when you're sitting still. So when you're not moving, you get a very near-zero number to multiply, along with the near-zero of Duna's sea level pressure.

Edited May 25, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[infinite_monkey]

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

redefine Kerbin's atmosphere to be composed of LqdNitrogen

That would be... so cool 

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

 

4. The intake rates are super high so that they're useable in super thin atmo like JNSQ Duna, or OPM's Thatmo. When you sit perfectly still (with lower speed settings), the intakes will then produce nothing and will waste the effort you spent to build your NASA-inspired Duna atmo ISRU base because the stock atmo harvesting system is broken in that way. Harvester rate is scaled by atmo pressure, static air speed, and for whatever reason, how fast your craft is moving, with no regard for when you're sitting still. So when you're not moving, you get a very near-zero number to multiply, along with the near-zero of Duna's sea level pressure.

Isn't that only a problem with stock intake? IMHO, the stock settings make perfect sense, what's missing is a way to get them up to speed - which is usually done via an electric motor, as far as I know. So you would need a module that consumes EC and produces intake air (ideally EC consumption is a function that considers speed; over a certain speed, it produces EC instead of consuming it). I'm not sure, but isn't that how the scoops in Karbonite work?

[JadeOfMaar]

10 minutes ago, infinite_monkey said:

Isn't that only a problem with stock intake?

It's not about the intake module. It's about the resource harvester module when set to type 2 (atmospheric). The intake module should not be used for resources other than IntakeAir or IntakeAtm. It will create a huge and ugly, balance-breaking exploit. It will create whatever resource you set, at torrential rates (depending on atmo pressure) with no regard to global or planetary resource limitations. IntakeAir and IntakeAtm don't have such configs restricting them but they're always there and the flow in at those rates. That's how the intake module works.

The use case is having a landing, static, atmo mining base, not an atmo skimming aircraft/airship. You'll see that not only do the Karbonite scoops rely on having a high static speed value like I do, but they use an even higher value than I use. Nertea confronted RoverDude about this sometime ago because it causes Nertea's Argon/Xenon harvester (the Cryogenic Gas Separator in NF Propulsion) to be useless because it's designed to sit still and operate (set and forget), not to be part of an aircraft. It does not or did not use high static speed values and it should not need to.

25 minutes ago, infinite_monkey said:

a module that consumes EC and produces intake air (ideally EC consumption is a function that considers speed; over a certain speed, it produces EC instead of consuming it).

That sounds like something you'll find in Advanced Jet Engine or KSP Interstellar.

The Karbonite scoops are built that you fly (move) around in low and thick atmo and collect lots of the desired resource. Whereas Nertea and I want ours to be non-moving.

27 minutes ago, infinite_monkey said:

That would be... so cool 

Lol!

[somnambulist]

8 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

 Nertea confronted RoverDude about this sometime ago because it causes Nertea's Argon/Xenon harvester (the Cryogenic Gas Separator in NF Propulsion) to be useless because it's designed to sit still and operate (set and forget), not to be part of an aircraft. It does not or did not use high static speed values and it should not need to.

Have you looked at Nertea's dev thread recently? He's working on a fix for atmospheric harvesters.

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/47223-wip-nerts-dev-thread-current-i-dont-know-what-im-doing/&do=findComment&comment=3789522

 

[JadeOfMaar]

@somnambulist No, I haven't. But that's epic!

[AccidentalDisassembly]

5 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

1. There's this thing where if you enter Difficulty Settings and reduce resource abundance that apparently, presence chance is also affected. The ones that have a 1000 chance value are therefore set so that when the 1000 is divided by the difficulty settings fraction, it still returns > 100% so it will still always appear.
2. That's a thing I'm aware that I would end up stumbling over in the beginning. The resource chains in question do require a heater or de-compressor part. Soon™ enough I will have a new part just for that and new models to replace the converter boxes. Originally I named this mod "Realistic Resources" which is why the gas forms and extra ISRU steps are there. I regret having done that. However it would be very discomforting to, by definition, redefine Kerbin's atmosphere to be composed of LqdNitrogen...
3. The gas form resources are available in atmosphere and in crusts: I see them as solid and like snow/ an ice cap, or sedimentary layers, and not as gas pockets. The liquid forms of these resources don't entirely exist for use as fuel. Nothing uses pure Nitrogen as a propellant. A major part of why they're there is for use by life support mods, especially Kerbalism, and some planet makers would be happy to have these resources present and in-game in their oceans. This mod exists to enrich planet packs for life support compatibility as well as to encourage making fuel for engines that don't use stock fuel, and making industrial resource gatherin games more challenging.
4. The intake rates are super high so that they're useable in super thin atmo like JNSQ Duna, or OPM's Thatmo. When you sit perfectly still (with lower speed settings), the intakes will then produce nothing and will waste the effort you spent to build your NASA-inspired Duna atmo ISRU base because the stock atmo harvesting system is broken in that way. Harvester rate is scaled by atmo pressure, static air speed, and for whatever reason, how fast your craft is moving, with no regard for when you're sitting still. So when you're not moving, you get a very near-zero number to multiply, along with the near-zero of Duna's sea level pressure.

Odd re: the difficulty settings. I never hear Squad mention things like this (and wheels, and heat, and ...) that seem to be very, very long-standing bugs - maybe this particular bug is new, I have no clue, but it seems to fit with a pattern of not testing/fixing basic things; I wish they would fix some of the basics of the game. You know, like silly things that have no effect on the game whatsoever, like the aforementioned wheels... /Rant

Regarding surface extraction, what brought on my questions/comments was attempting to create a set of drills and ISRU patches that would produce a kind of "flow chart" similar in concept (but not in content) to the one used for MKS, and have parts and converters that sort of just "make sense". The idea being: drills are probably a little specialized; perhaps make 2-4 drills in total, one for Rock and MetalOre, another for Mopedantte and SomethingElse, whatever combinations seemed like they made sense. Perhaps adapt an oceanic extractor from MKS to pull in liquids, too - in any case, the goal was separating out a limited number of collectors and ISRU parts that abstracted purpose-built machinery to strike a balance between "one drill gets everything" and "one drill for each thing" - similarly with conversions.

The end goal was some kind of sensible path to MaterialKits, Ablator, SpecializedParts, whatever. I got stuck, though, because of phases, but also because of things like "Alumina" (is that corundum/rubies/sapphires?), which "felt" like it should come from the more-abstracted, more-general MetalOre (or MetallicOre) rather than the ground, and because of the number of overall steps already set up on the ISRU parts... In short, I am really struggling to visualize the overall flow chart (similar in concept, but not content, to the one for MKS here: https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/Resources) - each time I tried to come up with something, it seemed to get extremely complicated (and not in the fun gameplay/challenge kind of way).

So I wasn't so much looking for a way to eliminate a resource like Nitrogen, but trying to figure out how to make a flowchart that involves it sensibly along with a limited number of more specialized converters (seems like you are thinking about the same thing) that still make sense when things like Kerbalism are not installed.

So I guess, long story short - is there some kind of flowchart somewhere that I can piggyback on, or refer to, or modify without reinventing the intended ISRU-path wheel?

 

EDIT: every time I fix my garbled M o n a z i t e, it is changed to Mopedantte when I save the post...

Edited May 25, 2020 by AccidentalDisassembly

[Corax]

M o n a z i t e

That's how bowdlerization works. The forum doesn't like certain letter combinations, no matter the context, and it doesn't tell you when it "fixes" your transgressions. You may count yourself lucky that this doesn't affect your social rating. Yet. /s

[somnambulist]

17 hours ago, AccidentalDisassembly said:

So I guess, long story short - is there some kind of flowchart somewhere that I can piggyback on, or refer to, or modify without reinventing the intended ISRU-path wheel?

Not exactly what you want, but I threw together a quick ISRU chain spreadsheet that includes reactions added by RationalResources, various USI mods, some of Nertea's stuff, and stock. This is part of my notes for a personal rebalance that restores full playability to the USI constellation (e.g., nerfing Karbonite instead of removing it.) 

It isn't prettied up at all -- the reactions need to be tagged by mod and I haven't verified the values. It's also missing the entire MKS production chain. All values are resources per second -- negative values are inputs, positive values are outputs. I'll share the actual spreadsheet once I have a chance to verify the values and add the additional ISRU chains.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTLCuYBuS5Fmai2rPS5DrrtsSB1LSHWx28LAfob9wfkTg49PImL11QHJ4xvMq-xITcC7mfAzdtmuQzl/pubhtml

 

[JadeOfMaar]

@AccidentalDisassembly @somnambulist Most of RR's flowcharts are documented here. If that means anything: https://github.com/JadeOfMaar/RationalResources/wiki/Resources

I haven't added mention of Carbon itself, Alumina, Mohpedaunt ;D and Phosphorus to the wiki, but I've created a calculator (MS Excel) for converter I/O. It only partially supports MKS, of course.

[JadeOfMaar]

Release 1.6.0

DOWNLOAD :: GitHub :: SpaceDock

• Added templates: AtmVulcan, SrfVulcan, OcnMudCold, OcnMudWarm.
• Added support for Extrasolar (planet pack) by @AndrewDraws

[EimajOzear]

Loving the mod, but having a small issue:

Not sure if this is a Kerbalism issue (I have it installed with stock planet planet + OPM), but I can't seem to find any parts that can split hydrates into its constituent parts.

It's not a deal-breaker, it's just a bit of a pain to rely on 100% pure water instead of that AND hydrates. Now that I mention it, I'm not sure if there's a way for me to extract hydrates and the other RR resources (RRR!) since Kerbalism requires a dedicated drill config for each resource.

[JadeOfMaar]

Sorry @EimajOzear. I haven't gotten around to learning how to setup RR's extra converter chains for use in Kerbalism. I'll give that some priority very soon.

3 hours ago, EimajOzear said:

and the other RR resources (RRR!)

and the other RR('s) heh. Nice bit of humor you created there.

[EimajOzear]

40 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Sorry @EimajOzear. I haven't gotten around to learning how to setup RR's extra converter chains for use in Kerbalism. I'll give that some priority very soon.

and the other RR('s) heh. Nice bit of humor you created there.

Thanks anyway, glad to know it's on the horizon! 

[JadeOfMaar]

Kerbalism integration is coming along well (harvesters have been populated). But there seems to be just one issue. Converters don't fully load. Maybe Kerbalism's loading process for profiles causes MM operations to them to not get noticed.

These things are live and accessible in the dev branch on GitHub.

Atmosphere and exosphere harvesters. Untested but looks like they fully loaded:

Updated drills:

The pump's options (Ammonia, Nitrogen) are changed to LqdAmmonia, LqdNitrogen. And the added Methane option actually produces LqdMethane.

 

[EimajOzear]

@JadeOfMaarThank you so much for the quick updates!

Now that you mention the LqdMethane resource something came to mind:

Since Kerbalism substitutes "Liquid Fuel" for methane, is there any way to merge the two resources without messing up the ISRU chains? Perhaps a hydrocarbon refinery/converter?

When it comes to places like Tekto in OPM, the LqdMethane oceans would be perfect to exploit and set up ISRU chains, but it's practically a dead-end when used in conjunction with Kerbalism AFAIK.

Edited July 3, 2020 by EimajOzear
Correcting correction

[JadeOfMaar]

I've figured out what I need to do to get converters to load properly. I need to make a Kerbalism profile since editing one doesn't work. I'd really like to not have to produce and maintain a mostly redundant Kerbalism config package for this one segment of Kerbalism functionality.

On 5/24/2020 at 5:31 PM, AccidentalDisassembly said:

Right now, there's no way to convert Lqd_______ back to a gas. It seems like there needs to be an additional converter for each Lqd____ resource,;

I've finally prepared an answer to that and I'll release it in the next update. It uses a copy of the flat ZZZ box but with red where you expect blue. This box also requires cooling (as much as would the stock Drill-O-Matic).

On 5/25/2020 at 7:47 PM, AccidentalDisassembly said:

So I guess, long story short - is there some kind of flowchart somewhere that I can piggyback on, or refer to, or modify without reinventing the intended ISRU-path wheel?

Sorry for taking so long to answer this. I can't make any comprehensive flow chart but I do have a spreadsheet calculator that you can download and use.

Edited July 3, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[JadeOfMaar]

5 hours ago, EimajOzear said:

@JadeOfMaarThank you so much for the quick updates!

Now that you mention the LqdMethane resource something came to mind:

Since Kerbalism substitutes "Liquid Fuel" for methane, is there any way to merge the two resources without messing up the ISRU chains? Perhaps a hydrocarbon refinery/converter?

When it comes to places like Tekto in OPM, the LqdMethane oceans would be perfect to exploit and set up ISRU chains, but it's practically a dead-end when used in conjunction with Kerbalism AFAIK.

So... is this sufficient? Do you prefer using gas form or liquid form input for it?

Also, for an "Oxidizer (Kerbalism)" converter?

I've decided against creating a Kerbalism profile, and so I won't be adding any Kerbalism-powered converter modules. There's too much baggage to pick up and take on to be worth it. The RR boxed converters will continue to use stock-powered converter modules.

On the side, I just cloned this intake nacelle and carried over water harvesting functionality to it (so that the stock intake used for atmo harvesting no longer has to do double duty.) It's recolor is inspired by the copper paint band on boat hulls. It's not much, being a quick thing but it's much more fitting than using a surface drill for an ocean harvester.

Edited July 3, 2020 by JadeOfMaar