[New] Space Launch System / Orion Discussion Thread

[Cuky]

6 hours ago, Rutabaga22 said:

Will the modules of gateway be similar to ISS modules or will they be different?

Also, will it need to reboost?

3rd question, will dragon XL be needed for resupplying gateway when starship is a thing?

1. I haven't read anything specific tbh, but my thought is that they would either be derived from ISS designs or will be fresh design incorporating lessons learned with ISS

2. I guess not, at least not close as much as ISS has too. ISS has to be boosted in large part due to drag from atmosphere that slows it down and lowers its orbit.

3. So far I haven't seen anything about them not going forward with Dragon XL. But I guess Starship will probably replace it

Edited November 26, 2022 by Cuky

[SunlitZelkova]

11 hours ago, cubinator said:

What happens on Gateway if there is a solar flare?

They will die. Same thing on the Moon, although the Early Lunar Shelter had a few ideas for makeshift radiation protection with few resources.

https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/2016/09/30/the-early-lunar-shelter-stay-a-just-a-little-bit-longer/
 

“The other major danger entertained was radiation, and the aluminum walls couldn’t be made thick enough to sustain 500 rads (a hypothetical solar flare) without weight close to a half ton more than was otherwise necessary. Accordingly the study suggested putting the necessarily numerous  PLSS recharging canisters (for the life-support backpack worn while on the surface) stored in water filled sleeves around the bunk area located at the opposite end from the airlock. Altogether, they, the walls, and the bunk material made an acceptable, if awfully cramped, radiation refuge for everyone on-board.“

[intelliCom]

9 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

They will die.

Given how unpredictable solar flares are, is gateway even a slightly good idea? If there's an incident of the first death in space, that'll cut off all travel to the moon for decades.

[Minmus Taster]

24 minutes ago, intelliCom said:

Given how unpredictable solar flares are, is gateway even a slightly good idea? If there's an incident of the first death in space, that'll cut off all travel to the moon for decades.

NASA can't be THAT stupid, there must be some sort of way to shield the crew or abort for Earth. To think they could get that negligent would be actually sickening.

[tater]

1 hour ago, Minmus Taster said:

NASA can't be THAT stupid, there must be some sort of way to shield the crew or abort for Earth. To think they could get that negligent would be actually sickening.

There's no abort fast enough, they'll at best have maybe an hour's warning.

Shielding consists of a vest they can wear, and hiding back in Orion with supplies piled on the floor—presumably they rotate Gateway for optimal protection.

[kerbiloid]

And this limits the flights with the years of calm Sun.

Appropriate for rare lunar expeditions, but what about regular traffic to the lunar station, when the flights are required every several months to return th crew from the low gravity.

Also what about the bouncing of a capsule from the atmosphere? Planned but not used, but still probably able to happen.
The capsule enters the atmosphere at nearly escape speed, bounces off, and passes to the intermediate orbit, which may appear to be 20 000 km high. So, a whole day inside the radiation belts, and especially in a year of active Sun.
What should protect the crew except several centimeters of heat protection?

Well, the crew is not deadly irradiated, but the heatshield is partially spent and maybe damaged, it could be deformed by high temperatures, and now it should withstand a new re-entry.

 

Another such thing are Martian flights.
While you can wait for a calm year and quickly jump to the Moon, you can't neither predict the solar activity three years later, nor postpone the return from the Mars.

Well, the interplanetary ship may be thick and bulky, but in any case they should sit into an Orion capsule to return to the Earth, and have to spend from several hours to several days in it.
What if the Sun is active that year?

Starship can have thicker protection, due to greater diameter, but its ability to survive even circular speed reentry, let alone escape speed, is not proven at all, and its shape makes doubt in its ability.

 

It may look like only a two-stage capsule design is perfect, 
A small cramped capsule on top, for final reentry, with a hatch in the floor, through its heatshield.
And a separate semi-capsule below, with primary heatshield, cramped shelter/toilet for the whole crew, surrounded with heavy dense things around, for primary re-entry and for surviving the radiation events.

So, the double-capsule (with the crew in top cabin) enters the air, spends its heatshield, bounces off, spends hours in radiation belts under the active Sun, with the crew moved to the dungeon toilet.
Before the secondary re-entry the crew again takes its seats in the top capsule, jettisonnes the dungeon pod, and enters the atmosphere like after normal LEO flight.

[SunlitZelkova]

3 hours ago, intelliCom said:

Given how unpredictable solar flares are, is gateway even a slightly good idea? If there's an incident of the first death in space, that'll cut off all travel to the moon for decades.

On the bright side, it’s not like it will be continuously inhabited.

I am skeptical about a cessation to all deep space human spaceflight. Tax payer funded deep space missions might cease, but the private sector is rapidly becoming mature enough to fund expeditions on their own.

I think tax payer money would be cut in the event of a death on emotional and moral grounds, but I can’t see the private sector being forced to stop.

There have been numerous incidents of private sailors going missing while navigating the oceans. While I myself would probably not be able to support NASA human deep space exploration in the event of such a disaster, so long as private companies and individuals are completely willing to go up there despite the risks, I don’t think anyone has a right to stop them, just as the government doesn’t have a right to stop people from trying to solo navigate the oceans (and has not at all).

[tater]

Longer duration would be better in a frozen polar orbit, the Moon stopping half the radiation. Solar events will always require a backup plan for vehicles beyond the magnetosphere. A storm cellar of some kind.

[RCgothic]

5 hours ago, tater said:

There's no abort fast enough, they'll at best have maybe an hour's warning.

Shielding consists of a vest they can wear, and hiding back in Orion with supplies piled on the floor—presumably they rotate Gateway for optimal protection.

It'd not be like "zap, you're dead" either. Even if completely unexpected, elevated radiation levels are tolerable for *short* periods.  Drop everything and bunker down immediately and the astronauts would still have a decent chance.

[tater]

5 hours ago, RCgothic said:

It'd not be like "zap, you're dead" either. Even if completely unexpected, elevated radiation levels are tolerable for *short* periods.  Drop everything and bunker down immediately and the astronauts would still have a decent chance.

Yeah, there is the possibility of near term lethality for some events, but mostly it would manifest itself as an increased lifetime risk of cancer I would imagine.

[sevenperforce]

On 11/26/2022 at 10:15 AM, tater said:

On 11/26/2022 at 9:22 AM, Rutabaga22 said:

Also, will it need to reboost?

Stationkeeping for NRHO is minimal, and that's what the PPE is for.

Stationkeeping for NRHO is the result of gravitational perturbations and nothing else. There's no atmosphere up there.

In comparison, the ISS is so close to Earth that it is basically scraping the surface of the atmosphere. That's why it needs periodic reboosting.

[tater]

 

[tater]

 

Too bad it's a potato-cam

[tater]

[Barzon]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:19 PM, Barzon said:

I really hope they share a video of Orion's party mode at some point.

 

On 11/26/2022 at 8:36 PM, Cuky said:

1. I haven't read anything specific tbh, but my thought is that they would either be derived from ISS designs or will be fresh design incorporating lessons learned with ISS

2. I guess not, at least not close as much as ISS has too. ISS has to be boosted in large part due to drag from atmosphere that slows it down and lowers its orbit.

3. So far I haven't seen anything about them not going forward with Dragon XL. But I guess Starship will probably replace it

1. All of Gateways' modules are Cygnus based, except for the PPE which is based on one of Maxar's commercial satellite buses.

2. Gateway will require small, but regular correction burns from the PPE due to NRHO not being an entirely stable orbit.

[Barzon]

 

 

 

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Would it be a good idea for them to include UV-B lights for Vitamin D production?  (bone & mental health) 

[Meecrob]

8 hours ago, Barzon said:

 

Ok, hold on. We are on the cusp of returning humans to the moon, and they are trying to show off their RGB settings? I'm officially old, I guess, if thats what gets the kids into rocketry these days.

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Would it be a good idea for them to include UV-B lights for Vitamin D production?  (bone & mental health) 

Just take off the light filter from the window. The UV source is right there.

[GuessingEveryDay]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Just take off the light filter from the window. The UV source is right there.

[tater]

5 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Would it be a good idea for them to include UV-B lights for Vitamin D production?  (bone & mental health) 

They're not gonna be on Orion long enough that D production would be meaningful. They should take supplements—and probably should anyway in the modern world, dressed for internal, air conditioned environments, not working out in the fields.

[Barzon]

360 image of Orion's interior:

[tater]

56 minutes ago, Barzon said:

360 image of Orion's interior:

My head hurts

 

[Gargamel]

8 hours ago, Meecrob said:

Ok, hold on. We are on the cusp of returning humans to the moon, and they are trying to show off their RGB settings? I'm officially old, I guess, if thats what gets the kids into rocketry these days.

Having played with a variety of different LED's for a few projects I've made, I can tell you that programmable RGB LED's are almost the identical footprint as "regular" LED's, and assuming these aren't being controlled by a rheostat knob, but some sort of microcontroller, the code to make the lights change colors is, and I use this term truthfully, is pretty trivial.    It actually makes sense to have color changing lighting in a "long term" vessel such as this to help with astronaut sleep cycles.   At the very least, it's just as easy to do it as not. 

But yeah, I get your point .   Cause yeah, I'd be doing all the psychedelic color schemes I could too while there's nobody on board to annoy. 

[Barzon]

Return Powered Flyby starts in just under 100m, @ 1400 UTC / 0900 EST. RPF burn itself is at 1643 UTC / 1143 EST, with closest approach at 1642 UTC/ 1142 EST

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Barzon