REMEMBER: A KSP Collaborative Game based on Forgotten Space Program (modpack finalized (mostly))

[greenTurtle1134]

It happened again. Those well-meaning kerbals up and forgot about their space program. Maybe they met evil alternate versions of themselves. Maybe they were blinded on the edge of the cosmos. Maybe their home was eaten by anomalies. Maybe an asteroid brought the mysteries of outer space to their doorstep. Or maybe they're just pieces in a game that nobody cared about anymore. Unfortunately, we'll never know because, hello, we don't care. Space? Whazzat?

Years passed. Or was it days? Better mash that backslash, or they'll be the same thing. A new idea. A tale of triumph. A crazy, mashed together creation. A daring challenge for those who should know better. Something draws them back. Something raises the flags and fills the fuel tanks. Something new. Something glorious. A new story unfolds, filling in the gaps. To make space, the old is discarded. Thrown aside. Forgotten.

-

But this time, something remembered.

R E M Ǝ M B E R

A KSP Collaborative Game based on @Cydonian Monk's Forgotten Space Program (snazzy banner coming soon!)

 

What is this?

Forgotten Space Program is set in a world where the process of updating Kerbal Space Program has drastic implications for the Kerbals. Each version change resets Kerbin to a pre-determined time, right before the space program starts, but curiously, leaves all objects in space untouched.

I had the idea to start a collaborative game similar to the Collaborative Station, in which each player controls the space program during one "cycle" of the reset process. Each player will start their game from scratch, building and teching up... until their turn ends, at which point Kerbin is wiped clean, their vessels in orbit become relics of the past, and the save file is sent to the next player. You can play as normal and come across the efforts of previous players, or somehow work together to preserve progress across resets.

(This type of game may be better known as a succession game to some.)

Some specifics include:

• The game will be lightly-to-moderately modded. It won't be computer-melting, but it'll be based on a few well known, stable mod sets. Interface or cosmetic mods (Scatterer, KER, Trajectories, etc.) can differ between players.
• I'll write some kind of program to take a savefile, extract the data for ships and kerbals, perform the necessary manipulations (such as changing kerbal names to avoid conflict or setting vessels to unknown). All you'll have to do to play is create a new savefile, and push a button.
• For obvious reasons, we can't have the reset cycle be the update cycle of the game. Instead, it will be a random amount of in-game time, determined randomly at the start of your turn. Somewhere around 2-5 years, it might be changed later. Either way, it's unpredictable and unchangeable. When the timer buzzes, your turn is over. (I think I can get Kerbal Alarm Clock to do that.)

I'd like to check interest in this idea before starting it, however, so if you:

1. Would be interested in playing a turn of this game
2. Have comments, questions, or concerns regarding the idea
3. Are a mod, and know the proper place for this post (fun fact: I have no idea where this goes. Challenges and Mission Ideas, because Collaborative Space Station went there? Mission Reports, because it'll be soon filled with (many) mission reports if it goes right? Fan Works, even though it's not a typical fan work? General Discussion, because that's all it is right now?)

...then please reply below saying so. If enough people want to play, I'll replace this blurb with a full intro post in a few weeks.

What is the modpack going to be?

Spoiler

Dependencies:

• Magicore
• Toolbar Controller
• Click Through Blocker
• Kopernicus
• KAS
• KIS
• FAR
• KAC
• KCT
• CommNet Constellation
• OPM
• ScrapYard
• USI-LS
• SCANsat
• Community Tech Tree
• MechJeb
• Final Frontier
• DMagic Orbital Science
• Near Future (Propulsion/Electrical/Solar/Construction/Spacecraft/Launch Vehicles) (Everything except Aero)
• Stockalike Station Parts
• Kerbal Atomics
• Heat Control
• Cryogenic Engines
• Restock/Restock+
• MK4 Spaceplane Parts
• Hullcam VDS
• IndicatorLights
• IndicatorLights Community Extensions

Notes:

• KSP Version 1.8.1 for now, might upgrade later
• No DLCs! (I don't know how to turn them off so someone else will have to find out)
• The 1.9 version for Near Future Technologies is back-compatible. Download the latest version.
• If it's taking too much RAM, you can delete the IVAs folder in Stockalike Station Parts. It's optional.
• Multiple mods might bundle different versions of ModuleManager, check in your GameData and delete all but the latest version
• Uses about 2.7 GB of RAM on my computer. Make sure you're running KSP 64 bit.

What's that weird E symbol in the title?

That's a turned E. It's supposed to be an approximation of the logical symbol for Existential Quantification, and represents "for one". It denotes a statement that applies to at least one object in the universe. It is specifically contrasted with Ɐ, the symbol for Universal Quantification, which represents a statement that applies "for every" object in the universe. Essentially, if you can't remember everything, at least remember something.

...in all fairness, I just threw it in because it looks cool.

Edited March 4, 2020 by greenTurtle1134

[Geschosskopf]

Fascinating idea and a great tribute to @Cydonian Monk   I doubt I'll have time to participate but I look forward to some weird stories.

Question:  When you pass on the save, will there also be a random tech level determination, as in which nodes can and can't be used even if previously unlocked?

Also, do the participants need to share their flags?

[greenTurtle1134]

29 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Question:  When you pass on the save, will there also be a random tech level determination, as in which nodes can and can't be used even if previously unlocked?

The only thing passed on will be the vessels that are in space. Every save will start from zero tech, just as if it was a regular career game. I may add in something like ScrapYard so you can salvage advanced parts from prior saves. Having a way to store tech and retrieve it later would be helpful, but that's more complex. (Plus, it makes sense that the Kerbals are just incapable of documenting their work in a clear way)

33 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Also, do the participants need to share their flags?

Now that you mention it... yes, that will have to happen. Hmm...

[Barzon]

I would love to take part, but I'm a chronic procrastinator, so sadly I can't partake. But the ScrapYard idea seems very cool! 

[Lokachop]

Seems like a great idea!

[KerbalKore]

Will bdb, modular launch pads and tantares be installed? They are my three most important mods. Sigma Dimensions? That might be difficult to implement, but the program could take a players sigma dimensions scale and change SMAs based on that.

Edited August 2, 2019 by KerbalKore
Nvm didn’t read op

[greenTurtle1134]

20 minutes ago, KerbalKore said:

Will bdb, modular launch pads and tantares be installed?

The modpack isn't really set in stone (though I do have some ideas) so I'll be sure to include those.

27 minutes ago, KerbalKore said:

Sigma Dimensions? That might be difficult to implement, but the program could take a players sigma dimensions scale and change SMAs based on that.

I think that will be too different between players. Being in a different solar system is too much - even if that solar system is just a rescale.

I do want to add Outer Planets to the system. If anyone else knows of another planets mod they want that's updated for the most recent KSP versions, they can suggest it.

[KerbalKore]

JNSQ is a great mod

it doesn’t replace the stock planets but revamps them and adds a few more. (Also has native 2.7x rescale for more challenge.

[greenTurtle1134]

38 minutes ago, KerbalKore said:

JNSQ is a great mod

it doesn’t replace the stock planets but revamps them and adds a few more. (Also has native 2.7x rescale for more challenge.

I'm not sure whether changing the stock system is a good idea, people might be unfamiliar with the new mod. (Then again, being unfamiliar might add an interesting element to the game)

I'll start a poll.

[greenTurtle1134]

And because we have a poll, I might as well @mention the people who expressed interest in the idea on the Forgotten Space Program thread:

@obney kerman

@Pretorian28715

@DragonsForce

Looks like the Forgotten Community Game is going to happen.

[obney kerman]

How would we define the cycles? Would we have a limited number of launches per person?

[greenTurtle1134]

2 hours ago, obney kerman said:

How would we define the cycles? Would we have a limited number of launches per person?

I was thinking a randomly generated amount of time per person, to preserve the idea that a reset could happen sooner or later, at any moment. Limited number of launches would just mean the correct strategy is to launch a really big thing

[DragonsForce]

10 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

And because we have a poll, I might as well @mention the people who expressed interest in the idea on the Forgotten Space Program thread:

@obney kerman

@Pretorian28715

@DragonsForce

Looks like the Forgotten Community Game is going to happen.

While I think that this is a fantastic idea, I unfortunatly don't have the time to play through a cycle in anything like a reasonable time for others to continue. As such, I'm afraid I won't be able to partake.

[fulgur]

12 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

If anyone else knows of another planets mod they want that's updated for the most recent KSP versions, they can suggest it.

Hi GreenTurtle, I think this is a really cool idea! @KerikBalm updated his Modification of Inner Planets mod to 1.7 and is in the process of adding BG surface features. Speaking of which, are you using the DLCs?

[greenTurtle1134]

5 hours ago, fulgur said:

Hi GreenTurtle, I think this is a really cool idea! @KerikBalm updated his Modification of Inner Planets mod to 1.7 and is in the process of adding BG surface features. Speaking of which, are you using the DLCs?

Huh, so that's what they're calling Rald now? Sure. I'll put that into consideration.

I don't think we should use the DLCs, because that'll close it off to anyone without the DLCs. People with DLCs are just going to have to make sure not to use those parts or something. Or is there a mod or config that can "disable" a DLC?

23 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Fascinating idea and a great tribute to @Cydonian Monk   I doubt I'll have time to participate but I look forward to some weird stories.

Question:  When you pass on the save, will there also be a random tech level determination, as in which nodes can and can't be used even if previously unlocked?

Also, do the participants need to share their flags?

 

22 hours ago, Barzon Kerman said:

I would love to take part, but I'm a chronic procrastinator, so sadly I can't partake. But the ScrapYard idea seems very cool! 

 

5 hours ago, DragonsForce said:

While I think that this is a fantastic idea, I unfortunatly don't have the time to play through a cycle in anything like a reasonable time for others to continue. As such, I'm afraid I won't be able to partake.

Hmm, it seems like the time taken to complete a cycle will be a major barrier to people contributing. Which is understandable, as each cycle expects a person to basically play through a large fraction of a KSP Career game. I can think of a few solutions to this, but they all kind of ruin the point of the game:

1. Make cycles based on launches. (But then it becomes a game of launching a lot of stuff at once)
2. Make cycles based on real world time. (But then only people who have a lot of time to play will get things done, and one person may just finish the whole game)
3. Make cycles much shorter, on the level of weeks to months in-game. (Then any interplanetary mission will have to span multiple Cycles... although that does fit excellently with Forgotten Space Program)
4. Let players end a cycle whenever they wish. (We could end up with really short Cycles, though. We'd also have to apply a max length so someone doesn't just keep the save)

---

Also, the fact that the poll is exactly tied is kind of irritating.

[fulgur]

2 hours ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

Huh, so that's what they're calling Rald now?

In actual fact it also contains some Space Rocks. One at Kerbin L4 and 2 near Dres (to be an Asteroid Belt).

[greenTurtle1134]

3 hours ago, fulgur said:

In actual fact it also contains some Space Rocks. One at Kerbin L4 and 2 near Dres (to be an Asteroid Belt).

Alright, that sounds cool. I haven't played Rald, but it seems like a good mod.

If anyone else has mod suggestions (parts, physics, planets) suggest them now!

I also wonder if I'll be able to get any kind of life support working with this.

[Barzon]

I wont be playing, but Tundra Exploration and damon's other mods are good, and I would recommend them to anyone. Same as benjee's mods, which include ISS parts, a Shuttle, the STS stack, SLS, and a Canadarm.

[KerballingSmasher]

42 minutes ago, Barzon Kerman said:

I wont be playing, but Tundra Exploration and damon's other mods are good, and I would recommend them to anyone. Same as benjee's mods, which include ISS parts, a Shuttle, the STS stack, SLS, and a Canadarm.

In addition, also try playing with CobaltWolf's BDB, it adds in a whole butt-ton of new things!

[greenTurtle1134]

Possibility: We could use Kerbal Construction Time to make the deadlines actually meaningful. It also works with ScrapYard.

Also, I'm definitely going to include some colonization and ISRU construction mods so that we can ultimately forget about the Kerbin cycle and set up shop in outer space. Pathfinder sounds like it could work.

I'm creating a poll for which mods we want just in case I have to trim down the pack a bit. There's been a few different "real rocket parts" mods suggested, vote on your favorite.

EDIT: Realized too late that you can't actually change your vote in a poll. Well, that was useless.

Edited August 4, 2019 by greenTurtle1134

[greenTurtle1134]

How do you think crewed vehicles should react during a reset? Should you get control of the kerbals, or do you have to contact/visit them before you can control them?

This also affects how interplanetary missions can be run. If Player A sends a ship to Dres, and then Player B takes control... it's unfair to have Player A's ship blow past its capture burn. Should B be required to fulfill A's objectives, or should the save file be sent back somehow? Maybe we should require a player to finish any maneuver nodes already planned. Maneuver nodes are stored per-ship right?

If we do give each player automatic control of all kerbals, we'll probably have some kind of life support so the question is more complex than "put a Kerbal on everything"

What do you think?

[fulgur]

If we do go for LS I would prefer USI-LS as not overly complex, or otherwise use the cryogenics mod. I would suggest the part mod Restock+ which adds parts you never knew you needed. IE longer 0.625m tanks and a smaller Terrier (for smaller payloads).

I think all maneuvers should be added to KAC and required to be finished by the next player. Or people going to Eeloo and back would get too much time with the save. (If you installed Valentine's Star, aka Extrasolar, you get 1000-year trips.)

Edited August 4, 2019 by fulgur

[greenTurtle1134]

3 minutes ago, fulgur said:

If we do go for LS I would prefer USI-LS as not overly complex.

USI-LS is currently only rated for 1.3. Although there are reports that it works in 1.7 there might still be bugs, and since the dev is a KSP dev he might be moving on to other projects. It's a good balance of depth and simplicity. It's sad that the only other options are TAC (a bit too complex) or Snacks (ridiculously silly)

If anyone really hates TAC, please speak up.

7 minutes ago, fulgur said:

I would suggest the part mod Restock+ which adds parts you never knew you needed. IE longer 0.625m tanks and a smaller Terrier (for smaller payloads).

I'm not sure about Restock because it changes the stock parts and we already have a lot of mods adding rocket parts, but it's made by Nertea so it's probably good. (and also I'm already going to put in the NFT and Mk4 packs)

[Geschosskopf]

The more this gets talked about, the more more I want to drop my own projects and do this  

On the mod front, I STRONGLY suggest making this 100% stock except for instrumentation mods like KAC, RCS Build Aid, MJ, KER, etc.  For this game to really become something like the real Forgotten Space Program, it has to remain viable for several real years.  During this time, updates to the game will happen, mods will be abandoned, etc.  @Cydonian Monk has had to do beaucoup work to get over such humps.  I'd prefer to avoid that.  

Sure, everybody today can make a separate install so the game always stays the same version using the mods that work today.  HOWEVER, players come and go, not just mods.  Thus, a year or 2 down the road, requiring an ancient version salted away will make it difficult for any new players to participate.  So I think the only way to give this project the longevity it needs to really become what @greenTurtle1134 envisions is to keep it pure stock.  No mod parts, no mod solar system.

Furthermore, I recommend rather easy settings for the career, like 200% rewards.  Try to eliminate ALL the grind, so folks can quickly get on with populating space with stuff that will then become Forgotten, for others to find  To this end, I also recommend using Custom Barn Kit to set a constant and nominal fee (say $1000) to hire new Kerbals and greatly reduce the price of building upgrades.  

 

17 minutes ago, greenTurtle1134 said:

How do you think crewed vehicles should react during a reset? Should you get control of the kerbals, or do you have to contact/visit them before you can control them?

This also affects how interplanetary missions can be run. If Player A sends a ship to Dres, and then Player B takes control... it's unfair to have Player A's ship blow past its capture burn. Should B be required to fulfill A's objectives, or should the save file be sent back somehow? Maybe we should require a player to finish any maneuver nodes already planned. Maneuver nodes are stored per-ship right?

If we do give each player automatic control of all kerbals, we'll probably have some kind of life support so the question is more complex than "put a Kerbal on everything"

What do you think?

The way I see it, everybody must have KAC.  Where does KAC store data on existing alarms?  Whatever that is, it should be passed along with the game save.  That way, encounters and burns plotted in the future will still happen.  I'm pretty sure KAC automatically populates SOI alarms, not sure about maneuvers.

Anyway, as to the matter of control....  In the original story, Kerbals in space go on about their business.  Thus, it's incumbent on the next player to continue the missions of previous players.  Everybody therefore needs to post up what their plans are.,  Subsequent players will then have to use their judgment if later circumstances cause changes in plans.

One key thing in the original story is that ships launched in different cycles can only talk to ships launched in the same cycle, but can't talk back to Kerbin or with ships launched in different cycles.  Communications only work from face-to-face meetings.  So, ongoing missions inherited from previous players cannot transmit Science!, although returning ships can bring Science! and Kerbals back to Kerbin.  

This brings up the subject of comms networks.  I don't see a way to prevent relays launched in 1 cycle from being used in the next cycle.  So I recommend deleting all relays when the save changes hands.  After all, the ships from the previous save can't talk back to Kerbin now so those relays are really don't work anymore.  Might as well ax them.

 

5 minutes ago, fulgur said:

If we do go for LS I would prefer USI-LS as not overly complex. I would suggest the part mod Restock+ which adds parts you never knew you needed. IE longer 0.625m tanks and a smaller Terrier (for smaller payloads).

I STRONGLY recommend against life support in particular.  That would mean the Forgotten would starve to death.   How can you meet ancient Kerbals from decades before, stuck in a small shipwreck on Duna, if you play with life support?

[Cydonian Monk]

Very cool. This has my blessing, just in case that wasn't clear. 

Quote

Where does KAC store data on existing alarms?

Current versions store the alarm data in the persistent files. Thankfully KSP won't delete that data if KAC isn't installed, so if anyone isn't using KAC the previous alarm data won't be lost. 

I'd also suggest avoiding mods and the DLCs, especially life support, but that's up to what you folks decide.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Cydonian Monk