I say nay to RSS, and here's why.

[Dirkidirk]

5 hours ago, MechBFP said:

The vast majority of people I talk about KSP in real life are like “Oh, so you can fly around the real solar system???”  “No it’s a smaller fictional solar system.” “Oh... well that is stupid.”

have you asked them Why it's stupid?

[MechBFP]

13 minutes ago, Dirkidirk said:

have you asked them Why it's stupid?

I don’t care enough to ask. 

[Dirkidirk]

53 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

I don’t care enough to ask. 

ok

[kerbiloid]

Absolutely for native RSS but as a switchable option, no matter if it's internal (two planetary systems or scaled) or DLC.

The KSP scale is balanced for wannabe-spacemen.

RSS is required for balanced rockets without underpowered and overweighted parts (orbital ships are ok anyway, as their delta-V doesn't differ a lot).
Also ICBM are pathetic on Kerbin (actually they are just IRBM).

[VoidCosmos]

What about a Kerbol system scaled real solar system?

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, VoidCosmos said:

What about a Kerbol system scaled real solar system?

Like, say...

 

[Guest]

On 4/4/2020 at 4:16 AM, Dirkidirk said:

have you asked them Why it's stupid?

I'd say, the "kiddy" packaging of KSP is putting off a lot of people in general. They are expecting a serious game about spaceflight, and they're presented with cute green creatures with a toy solar system. It looks like a casual game, and is indeed very simplified. A lot of "serious" gamers, including simulation fans (a small demographic, but they're big spenders), are likely passing on KSP purely based on that. A spinoff game, set in the real system, and with historical/real concept-based parts (but retaining KSP's modularity and rocket business side of it) would likely sell well enough to these people, especially if professional quality environments were put in place.

[VoidCosmos]

11 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Like, say...

 

Yes! Exactly

[HansonKerman]

Hanson used Pay Day!

here are two cents.

First: all the points are valid, and many of them my thoughts exactly. Thank you. 
 

Anyway

first cent: mods. They exist. THEY ARE EASY. the devs said that there would be the same moddability, and I believe them. Shove that big blue (or yellow for windows) folder into GameData and you’re done. RSS is installed. THANK YOU.

 

next: KSP is fiction. It is always unrealistic in some way, because KERBALS are not HUMANS. Do humans have enough health to live forever? No. Do Kerbals? Yes. Do all humans want to join the space program? No. Kerbals do. They have Kerbin, Minmus, Eeloo, Rask, Rusk, Gilly, Ike, Jool, Laythe, Bop, a Kraken, and infinite possibilities. KSP IS NOT REAL LIFE. What it is: is beautiful. A crossover between  real life and a new universe. Monoliths, mystery arches, literal magic (space rocks), a beeping pyramid, and RSS would take that away.

extra cent (buy a gumball or smthin): idk how to irl science. I know that grammar was horrible but seriously. It’s why I don’t watch Scott, and just leave anything pertaining to irl science, and rockets, even though I have loved space exploration since forever and a half, I don’t give a spark about actual rocketry unless it’s some kind of cool research probe (New Horizons is a prime example). Idk what y’all are talking about dv, or angle of attack, I’m just sitting here with my smol lil solar system, and Sylveon, and listening to Undertale. If we take all of that science into account, I will just leave ksp2. I don’t care how to get to Pluto.

 

(also maybe number your points just for easy direction thx)

On 4/2/2020 at 1:39 PM, LittleBitMore said:

I would legitimately consider not getting KSP2 (I don't throw that term around lightly, I have NEVER said that for a single thing) if RSS is the main system, and so would a lot of players

oh yes, same. I have considered it, but my inner literal username has told me off, but I do not want to venture around a solar system 11x bigger.

Edited April 8, 2020 by HansonKerman

[HansonKerman]

On 4/2/2020 at 4:47 PM, LittleBitMore said:

People who buy KSP2 will buy that too anyways, and they will be disappointed when they realize it's a bajillion times harder to do anything. And they paid for something they don't even want, and won't ever use. I would see it as a waste of time from Star theory's point of view, and a waste of money from those who bought it and didn't like it, and that's why I have a great dislike for trying to package such a thing in DLC. Not enough people are going to use it, and so this huge pack (revamps literally everything, from parts to planets to the Tech Tree) which probably cost a ton of money to make will go unused. Didn't I already make all these points?

ah yes, bad dlc. I persuaded my parents to get the two dlcs, AND I GOT THEM, but RSS, is something I will never want, and if I have to pay, I will want it even less. I am considering KSRSS tho

[Starman4308]

On 4/2/2020 at 2:37 PM, Brofessional said:

I would prefer a 1:1 scale system, but I don't expect it to happen. Rebalancing the parts and so forth to work with the new scale isn't all that difficult, but there are other issues.

My info may be out of date so correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge new versions of Unity still have the same 32-bit floating point limit that KSP1 has which is only made worse by RSS scaling everything up. The glitches induced by RSS are forgivable for a mod but most would find them unacceptable for a retail 

 

My understanding is that floating origin/Krakensbane solved the most problematic issues. While there's minor inaccuracies caused by 32-bit floating point, it's definitely playable. 

Most RSS issues are caused by a patchwork of multiple mods, rarely still maintained by their original authors, on top of the kludgy mess that KSP itself is.

As to the thread topic: I'd maybe prefer some scale up, but a smaller system does ease the learning curve. RSS, scaled or not, also conflicts with the core interstellar aspects of KSP 2; it's intended to feature additional solar systems. With RSS, many are the lightyears to "nearby" exoplanetary systems. 

[AlamoVampire]

I personally think that realism mods should remain mods. I think the reasons in the op are sufficient enough reasons for me. I really have no experience with realism mods and cant speak beyond that on the point. just my thoughts.

[Fraston]

On 4/2/2020 at 12:39 PM, LittleBitMore said:

(Valid points, AKA OP)

Excuse me, why would any of this be considered invalid?

It covers all the bases and fires down the pro-RSS argument very well. I don’t care if any of you want stock RSS or not, so long as you don’t discount this man’s well-written opinion.

I am totally neutral on the stock RSS argument. Maybe we could get 5-6 times rescale? I don’t know, I thought that the stock Mun was too easy to get to, but RSS moon too hard, so in the middle maybe?

Edited April 9, 2020 by Fraston

[Kerbart]

Reasons people continue to play KSP after a first few encounters:

• This is so much fun!

Reasons people don't play KSP after a first few encounters:

• I didn't know it's so hard to get into orbit!
• Why can't I choose between closed-cycle and open-cycle rocket engines? Why can't I define my own fuel mixtures?

The people who complain that the game isn't hardcore enough right now: there's a mod for that. What I'd really want to see is that the game is so easiily moddable that something like RSS is just a matter of dropping in a single mod pack. Since KSP2 supposedly has multiple solar systems, an easy definition of solar systems and the option to choose your starting point would seem relevant.

Is KSP's lack of realism holding off the hordes of real fans? Why did Orbiter never enjoy the succes KSP had? No cutesie green aliens there, just pure hardcore realism.

[Gydra54]

Frankly, the fact that they have stated they will be making custom planets easier to create is already enough. RSS2 will be one of the first custom planet packs and it will be done incredibly quickly if the game actually delivers on in-built planet creation tools. Then Realism Overhaul 2 would come, and would again probably be even easier to make and put together if what the devs say about improved modding support is true. There is no point in spending dev time trying to put in an optional hardcore RSS mode that the vast majority of players wouldn't even realise exists or make use of, especially when modders will be very very quick to add it to the game regardless.

[HansonKerman]

8 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Reasons people continue to play KSP after a first few encounters:

• This is so much fun!

Reasons people don't play KSP after a first few encounters:

• I didn't know it's so hard to get into orbit!
• Why can't I choose between closed-cycle and open-cycle rocket engines? Why can't I define my own fuel mixtures?

The people who complain that the game isn't hardcore enough right now: there's a mod for that. What I'd really want to see is that the game is so easiily moddable that something like RSS is just a matter of dropping in a single mod pack. Since KSP2 supposedly has multiple solar systems, an easy definition of solar systems and the option to choose your starting point would seem relevant.

Is KSP's lack of realism holding off the hordes of real fans? Why did Orbiter never enjoy the succes KSP had? No cutesie green aliens there, just pure hardcore realism.

YES!!! You and everyone else in this thread have voiced my thoughts. For new players like I was once (years ago, I love ya 0.23), getting to orbit was all Greek. Minmus-impossible. I still don’t know how to do transfer windows. Past me would have wondered “Jool? WHATS THAT?????” The game is pretty hard from a perspective. If you want harder cores? Get a mod. Star Theory has said trhat KSP2 will have the same moddability. Integration of RSS would just discourage people like Past Me from the game if they don’t know how to get mods. Again, cute snack loving green aliens. We need those in a cute 11x smaller solar system.

 

~~Annoying Hanson

[SUPERFY]

earth's system will not be the primary system, nor does it make sense to funnel resources into a dlc project modders will ultimately take on. It would be better to spend those recources on say- a stock kopernicus. In any case the entire argument about difficulty and burn times doesnt resonate with me. It will take years and highly accurate maneuvers to reach a new system in ksp2. Without making straight up cheat engines im honestly interested in how they will implement navigating interstellar travel. You're complaining about a few day trip to the moon vs. A multi decade (at minimum) trip to a new system. So A. You really just want to blast rss or B. This game isnt for you.

 

[HansonKerman]

7 hours ago, SUPERFY said:

earth's system will not be the primary system, nor does it make sense to funnel resources into a dlc project modders will ultimately take on. It would be better to spend those recources on say- a stock kopernicus. In any case the entire argument about difficulty and burn times doesnt resonate with me. It will take years and highly accurate maneuvers to reach a new system in ksp2. Without making straight up cheat engines im honestly interested in how they will implement navigating interstellar travel. You're complaining about a few day trip to the moon vs. A multi decade (at minimum) trip to a new system. So A. You really just want to blast rss or B. This game isnt for you.

 

again - the game has been heavily delayed. I suppose most new people want RSS as stock, but it just doesn’t work out nicely for 65% of the fan base. See above. This game is for us, that’s why we don’t want RSS.

[DunaManiac]

For those people who support RSS:

I'll use an analogy I'm sure almost everybody here is familiar with. Unless you are a physicist or somebody who works at NASA as a mission planner, it is extremely hard in the stock system as a beginner. It took me 2 years for me to learn how to dock, and a similar amount of time to even reach Minmus! Only a small subset of people can actually go to other planets, and an even smaller subset of those who are successful in a game like RSS.

The thing that I like about KSP compared to Orbiter for example, that it's a nice balance between imagination and realism, it's realistic enough to make you think like somebody at NASA and planning missions, but enough imagination that you don't quit after your first mission. 

Bottom line: KSP is delicately balanced between imagination, and realism, one step in either direction would make KSP and KSP2 not as magical. Maybe a 3 times rescale in game as an option would be good.

Edited April 10, 2020 by DunaManiac

[HansonKerman]

1 hour ago, DunaManiac said:

The thing that I like about KSP compared to Orbiter for example, that it's a nice balance between imagination and realism, it's realistic enough to make you think like somebody at NASA and planning missions, but enough imagination that you don't quit after your first mission. 

Bottom line: KSP is delicately balanced between imagination, and realism, one step in either direction would make KSP and KSP2 not as magical. Maybe a 3 times rescale in game as an option would be good.

yeah! You have so much stuff to do, and can do it with relative ease. 3x rescale in the menu sounds great! 

[Laie]

Devs have long declared that KSP2 will copy stock Kerbin. So there's really no point in me commenting here.... but still.

1. Making orbit in real scale isn't harder if you also have real performance from your rocket parts.
2. Regarding launch times, RSS launches can be as fast as 6 minutes and really don't have to take longer than 10. My stock launches require a similar amount of time, a lot of which is spent coasting at 4x warp until I get out of the atmosphere.
3. From orbit, things play out the same either way: time-warp to maneuver node, time-warp to encounter... the only difference being warp speed.

The decision to go with a small world is kind of the "original sin" of KSP. Everything that's odd, bogus or silly about KSP is due to imposing realism on a world that's totally surreal to begin with. To wit:

• People know what a Moon Rocket looks like and expect something similar in KSP, so mass had to be tweaked way up and performance way down in order to meet player expectations.
• Everybody knows that atmospheric entry is hot and dangerous, so the KSP devs had to make up their own special physics -- this comes comes at a real cost, by the way, as the standard physics engine will not return the numbers KSP needs in order to meet player expectations.
• My personal favorite is how people wanted the radio to cut out during re-enry, and then wondered why it would also happen during launch.

But as I said, that ship has sailed: KSP2 will have the same small Kerbin as KSP1, and that's that.

[HansonKerman]

11 hours ago, Laie said:

But as I said, that ship has sailed: KSP2 will have the same small Kerbin as KSP1, and that's that.

*inhales*
THANK YOU

[Space Nerd]

On 4/13/2020 at 8:08 PM, Laie said:

Making orbit in real scale isn't harder if you also have real performance from your rocket parts.

It is a lot harder if the game includes engine restart time limits, real throttle, real fuel.....

It's still quite a bit harder with only real performance parts and real scale.

I agree with your other points though, but I still prefer stock system because I think RSS is too hard for me currently.

[Laie]

1 minute ago, Space Nerd said:

It is a lot harder if the game includes engine restart time limits, real throttle, real fuel.....

Do not confuse Real Solar System (or any realistically scaled system) with the Realism Overhaul mod.

34 minutes ago, Space Nerd said:

I still prefer stock system because I think RSS is too hard for me currently.

One of the gripes I have with RSS in KSP-1 is that there's no good way to play it. You may want to try SMURFF to get a glimpse of how stock RSS might play out. However, that blanket "let's adjust all stats by the same percentage" approach doesn't lead to a sensible whole. In order to arrive at a good game, you'd need to look at all the parts and individually set new, RSS-compatible values. You'd also need to re-think the tech tree.

Usually, fixing that would be in the purview of modders, but we already see how this works out: with Realism Overhaul as the de facto gatekeeper, RSS remains closed to most people. Which is a shame, IMO: going to Venus or Ganymede is inherently cooler than Eve or Laythe could ever be.

However, I don't see much of a niche for another modpack that doesn't take things as far as RO does. Unless, that is, if it comes as an official DLC from the developer.

[hypervelocity]

5 hours ago, Laie said:

One of the gripes I have with RSS in KSP-1 is that there's no good way to play it.

that's a very biased and uninformed opinion right there! I would have stated "I don't find a good way to play it", with the bonus perk of being able to get suggestions on how to enjoy it.

Edited April 18, 2020 by hypervelocity