[1.9.1+] OPT Spaceplane Continued 3.4.9.2 (beta) [Apr 02, 2024]

[O YEAAAAAAH Mr Crabs]

On 10/6/2020 at 5:38 AM, JadeOfMaar said:

I've started on this new [little] project, the RO config(s). It will be some time before I get far enough that I can share it for testing and feedback.

Also I now understand how to measure wings for a FAR config so that can finally happen for all of the Legacy wings.

And finally, I've been working on localization and moving some parts from Legacy over to Main to reduce somewhat, the need to install Legacy. After having merged some RCS parts down, I think it's time to hard deprecate some parts, so be prepared (again) for some craft files to break!

 

would gladly test it if you wanted to.

[gilflo]

Hello

About fuel tank provider, between B9Partswitch, Modular fuel tank, WBI and configurable container, do you recommend to use only one of those? Are there issues if we use more than one?

 

[JadeOfMaar]

@gilflo Yes I would recommend you use only one. They all do the exact same primary thing and they all target the same parts so you must choose one to use. If they try to operate together on the same parts, they will conflict and cause each other to do nasty things or complain very loudly. It's the same reason why you don't mix certain other kinds of mods like life support, and part failure mods.

It's okay to have multiple fuel switchers installed since every other part mod has its own preference (like USI uses Firespitter, KSPI uses IFS (Interstellar Fuel Switch) and the WBI mods use WBI... but don't try to get more than one to be available in the same tank part.

OPT supports as many fuel providers as it does because all of those are popular and easy to configure for, and I wanted to make it so that OPT works with your favorite fuel provider, not just mine. (Note: FS and IFS are not easy--actually quite a chore to configure for, so I don't support them).

[wkwied]

I'm wondering, has anyone built a single stage to everywhere with these parts? I have a decent (abit simplistic) spaceplane that can single stage to and from Eve, built out of 2.5m parts and a single 2.5m scaled down dark drive.

I've tried a bunch to try to build a stable plane out of J parts (with the lab and 5m unscaled dark drive) but I just can't get anything that big off the ground and also stable... but with my first build I have no way to regenerate dark goo...

[JadeOfMaar]

40 minutes ago, wkwied said:

but with my first build I have no way to regenerate dark goo...

All OPT labs have a converter to produce Dark Science resource. These require ElectricCharge and a scientist. Then the Dark Drive (and the Dark Energy power spheres) have a converter "Regeneration" to produce Dark Goo (from Dark Science, Ore and ElectricCharge). The stock Experiment Storage Unit also holds Dark Science, useful if you need to save on mass or volume by a great margin.

43 minutes ago, wkwied said:

I'm wondering, has anyone built a single stage to everywhere with these parts?

I've been waiting to see that happen, actually. I'm surprised that apparently no one has done it, and I figured the VTOL engines suite would be a huge help in that.

[Davaeron]

Hi.   Just came back to KSP after a break and I was wondering if there is still a known issue with wings/pylons/control surfaces not providing any lift ?  I went through the comments and saw someone had issues in conjunction with FAR but I never installed FAR.  All the updates are done (CKAN)   I have all the dependencies...Well it was working A1 approx 2 months ago. 

[DoubleUU]

On 10/6/2020 at 12:44 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

I updated it. The Legacy wings are all supported now. Let me know if they behave. View on GitHub. The VTOL engines aren't supported yet. I didn't think of them.

 

Sorry it took so long but I finally got around to testing and this appears to be working great!  Thanks!

[JadeOfMaar]

@Davaeron I must assume your break from KSP has gone on for a few years if you're not a FAR user, or FAR gets installed (as recommended by other mods) and you somehow never notice. Generally, the complaints about wings not producing lift are due to the legacy pack's wings not having FAR configs. This should no longer be the case (finally fixed) as of OPT Reconfig 2.2, published 8 days ago.

[Davaeron]

@JadeOfMaar  Yes well I'm getting old and never was very tech savvy.  I must have forgotten to reinstall FAR during the whole resetup process of my KSP installation.  But I knew I could count on you Jade and this fine community.  Everything is back to normal and I can finally experiment with those sick 'inverted wing' and all the new parts available. I may post a picture of my fighter in the Gallery when completed.  Many thanks for you help and for keeping this must have mod alive.

[gilflo]

On 10/15/2020 at 3:35 AM, wkwied said:

I'm wondering, has anyone built a single stage to everywhere with these parts? I have a decent (abit simplistic) spaceplane that can single stage to and from Eve, built out of 2.5m parts and a single 2.5m scaled down dark drive.

I've tried a bunch to try to build a stable plane out of J parts (with the lab and 5m unscaled dark drive) but I just can't get anything that big off the ground and also stable... but with my first build I have no way to regenerate dark goo...

I just build a 500t "green" SSTO using the Warpjet SAGE for initial climb with the Hybrid J81 for climb and orbit. My problem is that KER and Mech don't seem very accurate about TWR with this kind of engine. KER give me a 2.03 TWR on Kerbin take off and 1.33 TWR on Eve take off.

The SSTO flies very well around Kerbin and has got 11500 DV left once in a 100 kms orbit and it should able to go everywhere. 24 Power Core "Tidal force" supply the big amount of electricity needed by the 8 engines. My problem now is to calculate the precise amount of Liquid fuel and oxydizer I really need when switching between modes to optimize the DV. 

There is a lab on the SSTO and enough place in the holds to set a ScanSat Satellite or a Drill system with converter.

For Eve the problem is the atmospheric entry because you can't get thermal heat shield on such a big vessel and I am not sure that the J81 are powerful enough to deal with slowing enough to avoid overheating, so maybe I'll have to add some powerful engines just for that...

I tried the valkyrie and the Marge "vertical horizontal" engines but they are not suitable for big aircraft. For vertical landing on low gravity planet maybe I should fit the SSTO with some "Hellcarrier" or Warpjet FVT, but there's a calculation to do for that because I am not sure that KER will give the good TWR and more engines means less DV left in orbit.

Then control of vertical engines is very hard without a mod like "Throttlecontrolledavionics", so it's always a challenge because it's very hard on a plane to have the center of gravity not moving with fuel consumption....

And the last question is : does it worth overpowering the 4 SAGE warpjets to climb to orbit as they will save fuel?

Edited October 16, 2020 by gilflo

[gilflo]

I tried to place the FVT vertical engines on my SSTO. That's impossible mission!!

https://youtu.be/9mkJuZpz1Tc

[wkwied]

4 hours ago, gilflo said:

I just build a 500t "green" SSTO using the Warpjet SAGE for initial climb with the Hybrid J81 for climb and orbit. My problem is that KER and Mech don't seem very accurate about TWR with this kind of engine. KER give me a 2.03 TWR on Kerbin take off and 1.33 TWR on Eve take off.

The SSTO flies very well around Kerbin and has got 11500 DV left once in a 100 kms orbit and it should able to go everywhere. 24 Power Core "Tidal force" supply the big amount of electricity needed by the 8 engines. My problem now is to calculate the precise amount of Liquid fuel and oxydizer I really need when switching between modes to optimize the DV. 

There is a lab on the SSTO and enough place in the holds to set a ScanSat Satellite or a Drill system with converter.

For Eve the problem is the atmospheric entry because you can't get thermal heat shield on such a big vessel and I am not sure that the J81 are powerful enough to deal with slowing enough to avoid overheating, so maybe I'll have to add some powerful engines just for that...

I tried the valkyrie and the Marge "vertical horizontal" engines but they are not suitable for big aircraft. For vertical landing on low gravity planet maybe I should fit the SSTO with some "Hellcarrier" or Warpjet FVT, but there's a calculation to do for that because I am not sure that KER will give the good TWR and more engines means less DV left in orbit.

Then control of vertical engines is very hard without a mod like "Throttlecontrolledavionics", so it's always a challenge because it's very hard on a plane to have the center of gravity not moving with fuel consumption....

And the last question is : does it worth overpowering the 4 SAGE warpjets to climb to orbit as they will save fuel?

Very interesting. I've not tried much with the air breathing engines yet. Only doing the upmost basic kind of plane with a scaled down dark drive. I'll post some pictures later, but I did manage to nail both an Eve and Tylo take off and landing. Eve was by far the hardest.. I had to use mechjeb to help me hold a steady 20-30m/s climb... Entry was done pretty easy by hitting the 70km mark going less than 1500m/s.

 

Landing though, on Eve and Kerbin... I need chutes. Thing needs to be going at least 150m/s to be airborne on Kerbin and it is otherwise a flying brick with a TWR of a bit over 1

[JadeOfMaar]

@gilflo Instead of 24x small Tidal Force power spheres (with total output of 3600 EC/s) you could carry just one of the 2.5m Dark Energy power sphere (with output of 5400 EC/s) but I totally understand if you're not interested in dealing with the Dark Goo. The Valkyrie Tilt, Warpjet MARGE, and FVT series engines are all getting a thrust buff since actually, part of the point they exist is to be able to lift without needing so badly to find and spam engines that may have the muscle but weren't made to fit.

I also intend to change the J81 to a sort of fusion drive, inspired by a KSP Interstellar fusion rocket/ramjet I saw in action in a YouTube series.

4 hours ago, gilflo said:

And the last question is : does it worth overpowering the 4 SAGE warpjets to climb to orbit as they will save fuel?

It's worth it, I suppose. The point of WarpJet is to reduce the struggle of using finite LiquidFuel and to make unparalleled use of the atmosphere itself as you ascend. However, it is explicitly not meant to be the main engines for a heavy craft. That's what the SURGE (lacking a closed cycle) and the MARGE are for.

[DeadJohn]

5 hours ago, gilflo said:

...For Eve the problem is the atmospheric entry because you can't get thermal heat shield on such a big vessel and I am not sure that the J81 are powerful enough to deal with slowing enough to avoid overheating, so maybe I'll have to add some powerful engines just for that...

Some of the OPT cargo bays and wings include radiator modules. That might be able to keep you cool enough during an Eve reentry.

[JadeOfMaar]

@DeadJohn Color me skeptical. I don't believe that radiators have -that- kind of utility (particularly in thin atmosphere). But I guess the feature would help the parts themselves (wings and cargo bays) to survive the heat.

@gilflo When placing the FVT engines, go for the left side of the fuselage part with angle snap enabled, and press Q to orient them properly. Treat them like you're attaching a wing.

[NHunter]

5 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Instead of 24x small Tidal Force power spheres (with total output of 3600 EC/s)

you aren't including the Tsunami sphere yet? you'd need only 6 of those for 3600 EC/sec

[gilflo]

Here is the final version of my Interstellar SSTO : 4 Warpjet SAGE engines and 4 J 81 Hybrid Engines.  12 Tidal force 1.25 and 12 at 1.5m produce 4800 EC/s 

I tried to overpower the SAGE engines, but it's not the best way to get the maximum Dv to orbit. The J81 associated with SAGE are incredibly powerful in low atmosphere and allow a 200m/s vertical speed up to 10000m reached at Mach 2.0. Then we can accelerate to 1200m/s before switching to close cycle and we get 12500-13000DV left in a 100 kms orbit.

So this machine can go everywhere and back without refueling. The 4 Helicarrier vertical engines are here to land on non atmospheric planet and maybe on Duna. They just have to be scaled according to local gravity. so they don't cost too much weight.

I just have to add some science stuff in the hold.

Edited October 16, 2020 by gilflo

[JadeOfMaar]

6 hours ago, NHunter said:

you aren't including the Tsunami sphere yet? you'd need only 6 of those for 3600 EC/sec

The work I'm doing altogether adds up to another mega-update (including the Tsunami which I'm currently not actually naming Tsunami)

Spoiler

I've re-titled all the power spheres (not by much) and am going for a none-too-colorful array of names:

• OPT-E VS01-125 Power Core "Tidal Force"
• OPT-E VS01-250 Power Core "Tidal Force"
• OPT-E VS02-125 Power Core "Dark Energy"
• OPT-E VS02-250 Power Core "Dark Energy"

I just have to settle the inconsistencies of ElectricCharge demand by all the engines and then I can look at releasing. Go check the changelogs on GitHub to see how much is done already.

I noticed I have this infuriating little issue of the fuel switching on the Tidal Force doesn't actually work. The B9 module visibly works but the part still asks for LiquidFuel and is therefore useless in a game of cryofuels. I need to know if it's just me. (using KSP 1.10.1)

---

5 hours ago, gilflo said:

I tried to overpower the SAGE engines, but it's not the best way to get the maximum Dv to orbit. The J81 associated with SAGE are incredibly powerful in low atmosphere

I'm surprised that the SAGE isn't working out for you. The method is pretty straight-forward: Once you get to an ideal altitude, fly level and accelerate virtually infinitely on the warpjet, as far as the cockpit's thermal limits and intake supply allow. You should also be able to get fairly far on the SAGE's closed cycle and the Mk2 nose changed to its somewhat secret IntakeAtm tank type. You should be able to make maximum savings on the use of your J-81 and LFO.

If you will, I'd like you to download and install all of the GameData folder on the GitHub. You can try out the increased thrust and new behavior of the J-81 engine, the 2.5m Tidal Force LFO power sphere, and Localization support.

Spoiler

This Eve SSTO managed most of its ascent with SAGE for main engines, ARI-73 for boosters, and IntakeAtm capacity hidden inside (4x Mk2 noses).

---

@O YEAAAAAAH Mr Crabs I think I'm finished with the RO setup (That is: It's ready for trial). I recommend you download and install the whole GameData folder from GitHub, and not just OPT Reconfig. But the RO stuff is concentrated in GameData/OPT_Reconfig/OPT_RO.cfg and GameData/OPT_Reconfig/CRP/*

Some engines have their titles and descriptions changed to be less kerbalized/ more like real engines. Also note I have not actually installed RO so stuff is untested.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[gilflo]

4 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

 

 

I'm surprised that the SAGE isn't working out for you. The method is pretty straight-forward: Once you get to an ideal altitude, fly level and accelerate virtually infinitely on the warpjet, as far as the cockpit's thermal limits and intake supply allow. You should also be able to get fairly far on the SAGE's closed cycle and the Mk2 nose changed to its somewhat secret IntakeAtm tank type. You should be able to make maximum savings on the use of your J-81 and LFO.

If you will, I'd like you to download and install all of the GameData folder on the GitHub. You can try out the increased thrust and new behavior of the J-81 engine, the 2.5m Tidal Force LFO power sphere, and Localization support.

 

I gave it a try by adding 4 mk2 nose ram air intakes and I don't really need to overpower so much: The 3m SAGE engines are too powerful, because I reached an apoapsis of 142 kms before they cut out...the 2.5m engines cut out at 2300m/s and apoapsis reached is 72 kms. I think a 2.6m SAGE engines should be fine. Are Ram air intakes really a bonus for SAGE? I am going to rework my SSTO. the thing is, as you say, to find the right acceleration altitude or the fine rate of climb to keep constant acceleration

I noticed that when the Air intake becomes very low in high atmosphere, The 4 SAGE engines do not delivers the same thrust, sometimes one of them is decreasing while 3 others remains stable and this causes yaw deviation du to asymmetric thrust...

[gilflo]

10 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

 

If you will, I'd like you to download and install all of the GameData folder on the GitHub. You can try out the increased thrust and new behavior of the J-81 engine, the 2.5m Tidal Force LFO power sphere, and Localization support.

 

I downloaded and installed it . With the new J81 the only interesting VAC propulsion for big SSTO seems to be the Dark drive. So if you want to stay apart from dark science and dar Goo, there no interesting choice. For my Interstellar SSTO, climbing to orbit with the SAGE engines let me more than 13000 DV  with the old J81. With the new one or ARI or whatever, it's divided by 2. So please leave us the old 81 or something similar..

Edited October 17, 2020 by gilflo

[JadeOfMaar]

@gilflo It's not that the Mk2 intake is a bonus for SAGE. The engine's own built-in intake is the bonus. It's not much but it's there and not a separate intake. When the intake supply reaches zero in high atmo and the engines start failing, that's what we call "Asymmetric flameout." KSP doesn't cause all engines to flameout (as it ought to) but decides to pick an engine to starve. And this happens to any craft with multiple jet engines in symmetry. Once you're near enough to vacuum you can use SAGE's closed cycle without much change in thrust, and keep on accelerating on air when the intakes fail. But with the new behavior of the J-81, you'll need far more ElectricCharge and your stored IntakeAtm will drain faster but high altitude performance will be better, and performance at all altitudes will be more even.

[gilflo]

7 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@gilflo It's not that the Mk2 intake is a bonus for SAGE. The engine's own built-in intake is the bonus. It's not much but it's there and not a separate intake. When the intake supply reaches zero in high atmo and the engines start failing, that's what we call "Asymmetric flameout." KSP doesn't cause all engines to flameout (as it ought to) but decides to pick an engine to starve. And this happens to any craft with multiple jet engines in symmetry. Once you're near enough to vacuum you can use SAGE's closed cycle without much change in thrust, and keep on accelerating on air when the intakes fail. But with the new behavior of the J-81, you'll need far more ElectricCharge and your stored IntakeAtm will drain faster but high altitude performance will be better, and performance at all altitudes will be more even.

Thank you for the information about the air intake. I did not know that.

[O YEAAAAAAH Mr Crabs]

@JadeOfMaar tested some and the parts seem to function correctly but

A) When I open the game I get this warning https://imgur.com/a/WNX4nHs\

B) I do not know if you have not done this yet or there is a problem in the code but all parts are not at any tech tree icon but on the non-rp part section

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by O YEAAAAAAH Mr Crabs

[gilflo]

On 10/17/2020 at 5:35 AM, JadeOfMaar said:

 

  Hide contents

This Eve SSTO managed most of its ascent with SAGE for main engines, ARI-73 for boosters, and IntakeAtm capacity hidden inside (4x Mk2 noses).

---

 

 

What I don't understand is the SAGE TWR on Eve: I built an eve ascender that looks like yours: Around 80T, 4 SAGE engines, 2 ARI. KER gives me a 1.35 TWR on SAGE engines alone at Kerbin base at take off. Given the fact that the gravity on Eve is 1.67 times the gravity on Kerbin, the TWR on Eve at sea level take off should be 1.35/1.67 = 0.77. but KER gives a poor 0.22 TWR and I checked it on Eve at sea level!  So there's something i miss, I don't what!

If we consider the Thrust on the ARI alone, then the TWR given by KER is right on Kerbin and on Eve, Eve TWR being Kerbin TWR/1.67

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by gilflo

[JadeOfMaar]

@gilflo SAGE is specifically very poor at Kerbin sea level and quickly becomes useless in thicker atmosphere (therefore the ARI engines). Atmosphere pressure is more important to it than to most other engines.

@O YEAAAAAAH Mr Crabs I've fixed the B9PS issues. I had to update the B9 engine features to recognize ModuleEnginesRF, which ModuleEnginesFX is renamed into. I've also setup ullage, ignitions, non-zero minimum thrust, disabled the heat upgrades (part of adding/extending support for DRE) and settled the EC demands in the EC-using engines. (Re-download just the OPT Reconfig folder and probably the config file for the J-81 engine (if you plan to use that) from GitHub.)

I've peeked into the RP-0 tech tree but actually doing the tech tree setup needs a generous chunk of time all to itself. That will happen by Wednesday and you'll likely find most OPT parts very near the upper-right corner of that tree.

Edited October 18, 2020 by JadeOfMaar