Stock visual improvements poll

[catloaf]

As the community is very divided on this subject, I decided to make a pol to get a more objective point of view than a discussion

Edited September 23, 2020 by catloaf

[steve_v]

What the community wants will likely be irrelevant. Shiny graphics sell games.

[Entropian]

Mods have been doing everything except the worsened graphics for years.  I don't see why we need a stock implementation of these.

[steve_v]

20 minutes ago, Entropian said:

I don't see why we need a stock implementation of these.

* Consoles.
* People who don't, won't or can't install mods.
* Designing things like this into the game will likely yield better performance.
* People have been asking for stock clouds since alpha.

"There's a mod for that" has never stopped Squad adding things to the game, I don't see why it would stop Intercept/T2 either.

I'm not going to argue further, but I will leave you with a question to ponder:
How many sequels have you seen over the years that don't improve on the graphics of the original, and given this one will likely be released 8 years after the original, do you really expect no increase in system requirements?

[Entropian]

8 hours ago, steve_v said:

"There's a mod for that" has never stopped Squad adding things to the game

I know, but the current release is very buggy, and I think they should fix that before adding features.

8 hours ago, steve_v said:

I don't see why it would stop Intercept/T2 either.

I thought we were talking about KSP 1. 

8 hours ago, steve_v said:

How many sequels have you seen over the years that don't improve on the graphics of the original, and given this one will likely be released 8 years after the original, do you really expect no increase in system requirements?

I definitely expect system requirements to increase.

[steve_v]

6 minutes ago, Entropian said:

the current release is very buggy, and I think they should fix that before adding features.

Absolutely. Personally I'd prefer they added nothing at all, and just went for releasing a game that us actually finished rather than this continuous development perpetual beta nonsense.
1400 open bugs, many of them new, and bug count showing no sign of decreasing this far into development and this close to the release of the sequel is, frankly, ridiculous.

That said, if they are going to add stuff to the game, the proposed graphical improvements aren't silly candidates. Who knows, Squad might even manage to add clouds without breaking something else...
 

4 minutes ago, Entropian said:

I thought we were talking about KSP 1. 

Hmm, perhaps we are. May have gotten a little distracted by the raging argument over in the KSP2 potato-compatibility thread. My bad.

 

 

[catloaf]

On 9/8/2020 at 5:21 AM, Entropian said:

 

I thought we were talking about KSP 1. 

 

This is actually ksp2, I will ask the mods to move it.

[Incarnation of Chaos]

KSP2 already looked significantly better than KSP, so I don't get it.

Personally I don't really care too much about the graphics. If KSP2 has working wheels and legs and delivers the increased part counts it's worth the purchase for me. 

But I've been thinking about all of this for a while, and I think the best option for graphics would be a good array of settings in the base game and a free 'DLC' to enable crazier or more demanding settings. 

But that's on the assumption that they're not wasting time right now making pretty explosions instead of working wheel colliders. I want a rock solid foundation first and foremost, everything else is secondary.

[Vanamonde]

I've moved this to the KSP2 sub, since you asked, but keep in mind that Squad is not making KSP2. 

[dave1904]

KSP 2 already looks good enough for me if it looks like the trailers. I want a working product at launch that delivers on the promises made. By promises I mean modabilty and stability. Obviously design changes can happen. Thats all. 

 

[mcwaffles2003]

I chose:

Quote

ray tracing, full volumetric clouds, dlss, super high res shadows, volumetric godrays...

Because I want something for my graphics card to do finally...

More so though, I would like to actually enjoy visiting and exploring other celestial bodies and the vistas they may offer. I would like lots of collidable ground scatter, make my rover work... make me have to find a safe landing site! Give clouds some real texture and depth! When I fly over a storm system in the evening I should see shadows on the surface of clouds and be able to grasp. Make my kerbal and my lander leave tracks. Show me some real geological formations cliffsides, canyons with strata, realistic mountains, forest regions, rain and puddles..... Also, include optional ray tracing at least in some minimal form... I can't use it, I dont have RTX but if this game is going to last 10 years... not preparing to include raytracing would seem like a huge misstep as I have no doubt that is where games are moving visually, it is an undercooked technology currently but its adoption is increasing and its capabilities are expanding.

And for those that cant handle such settings... turn down the graphics and don't play on ultra. This game is and always has been about the gameplay and the mechanics surrounding it, but to dismiss graphics as something frivolous or unimportant, to me, seems callous and short sighted. Especially if their CPU  usage is minimal.

Spoiler

 

If this can be made by a single modder with minimal reliance on the CPU and played with 30-60 frames at 1080 on a GTX 1060 then a professional team with experience should be capable of exponentially more.

On 9/22/2020 at 8:26 AM, Gameslinx said:

As an estimate, I did a test with a few friends yesterday. On a GTX 1060, and shader settings maxed out, he was averaging 30-60fps with the other visual mods installed. I'd say that's a success  

Edited September 24, 2020 by mcwaffles2003

[SOXBLOX]

I really want the stock game to have the best graphics possible, period. I want to see shockwaves, engine plume expansion, detailed clouds, real water, not blue Jell-o, etc. So I picked the whole nine yards option.

[Gameslinx]

2 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

not preparing to include raytracing would seem like a huge misstep

To be fair, there really isn't much point raytracing a game where 80% of your time is in space (with nothing to reflect off except your ship's parts, which doesn't require raytracing to do

[harrisjosh2711]

Anything goes! 

Cost is a big barrier of entry in the latest tech. Unfortunately, if developers pandered to those who cant afford the requirements- consumer technology would rarely improve and prices rarely decrease. 

Will all you guys with the potatoes will be making the mods?

[mcwaffles2003]

1 hour ago, Gameslinx said:

To be fair, there really isn't much point raytracing a game where 80% of your time is in space (with nothing to reflect off except your ship's parts, which doesn't require raytracing to do

True, but if the tech becomes common soon why not include it? I doubt anyone would have guessed adding raytracing to minecraft would have done much but the differences are stark. Im also curious if the only benefits of raytracing are in visuals or is it possible that the rays could be used for features beyond visuals like more accurate occlusion detection for solar panels for instance

[harrisjosh2711]

39 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

True, but if the tech becomes common soon why not include it? I doubt anyone would have guessed adding raytracing to minecraft would have done much but the differences are stark. Im also curious if the only benefits of raytracing are in visuals or is it possible that the rays could be used for features beyond visuals like more accurate occlusion detection for solar panels for instance

Ksp 2 is being made for last gen's hardware.... which doesnt support ray tracing

[mcwaffles2003]

3 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Ksp 2 is being made for last gen's hardware.... which doesnt support ray tracing

That sucks for console players but does that stop ray tracing from being in the PC version? Also, nothing like releasing a game for last gen hardware at least a year after then new gen has launched....

[The Aziz]

11 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Ksp 2 is being made for last gen's hardware.... which doesnt support ray tracing

So it can be turned on and off, just like in minecraft.

Plus, not going for next gen in this decade is a perfect way to lose a lot of income. With pc already using the technology, and consoles starting to use it later this year, it would be foolish to not implement at least a base for it, especially if the game is going to last a long time. If anything, it should come out for next gen, for a simple reason really - more powerful, more capable hardware.

Edited September 24, 2020 by The Aziz

[harrisjosh2711]

@mcwaffles2003

I suppose it doesnt. I think they planned on finishing ksp a year BEFORE the next gen launch.... which we all know didnt happen.

@The Aziz

Perhaps they will make it optional. Though, i wouldnt consider it a necessary launch feature. A version for next gen gaming would be amazing! I for one am a bit perplexed they chose last gen specs. But... Im guessing it makes perfect financial sense from take2's perspective.

[mcwaffles2003]

1 minute ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

@mcwaffles2003

I suppose it doesnt. I think they planned on finishing ksp a year BEFORE the next gen launch.... which we all know didnt happen.

@The Aziz

Perhaps they will make it optional. Though, i wouldnt consider it a necessary launch feature. A version for next gen gaming would be amazing! I for one am a bit perplexed they chose last gen specs. But... Im guessing it makes perfect financial sense from take2's perspective.

If anything I guess we can hope it being built for last gen means there will be a significant amount of optimization... You think there's any chance, due to the delays, that they could change course and target next gen instead?

[harrisjosh2711]

22 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

If anything I guess we can hope it being built for last gen means there will be a significant amount of optimization... You think there's any chance, due to the delays, that they could change course and target next gen instead?

 The last time i seen it discussed by @Nate Simpson was before the delay, so that certainly could be a possibility. I dont know enough about game design to answer that question confidently. Perhaps someone else will chime in.

[swjr-swis]

I don't see why one should exclude the other. Just add another slider/toggle to the graphics settings page, and everyone can tailor their game experience to the capabilities of their hardware. Doing anything else is simply choosing to limit your customer base.

Ultimately it's the devs' prerogative to cater for less customers, but then accept it is your choice - don't go putting the blame on customers for not having your particular choice of equipment.

 

[Okhin]

Well, there is a little bit more than having sliders to performance of graphical engines. Also, the wider the range of effects you want to be able to activate / deactivate, the wider the code overhead to manage that increase. Which can lead to a perf hit at some point, but is at least work hours for the engine engineers team. And for the graphical teams, because I suppose you probably have to work on a different set of graphical items for different quality levels (textures come in mind, butmaybe you'll have different variant of models for low poly engine), which is work. And then time. And then delay on the release date

As a friend says: you can have features OR a release date. Choose.

And having sliders for everything in the graphical engine is definetly a feature.

[Bill Phil]

Better fluid mechanics. I understand the limitations of such an implementation for physical accuracy, but it could be done for a visual improvement. Combine that with a better geography and you can have really interesting geographical features and a varying water level, with rivers flowing down mountains and so on. This would make Kerbin a lot more interesting. Could use it for clouds as well...

[Bej Kerman]

On 9/8/2020 at 1:21 PM, Entropian said:

On 9/8/2020 at 4:53 AM, steve_v said:

I don't see why it would stop Intercept/T2 either.

I thought we were talking about KSP 1. 

On the KSP 2 subforum?