Mun Fly-By

[Popestar]

I am at the stage in my career game where I get a contract to do a Mun fly-by, and this coincides with the fact that I'm actually ready, from a player perspective (and not necessarily a Kerbal perspective) to actually do a Mun fly-by.  However, I'm running into a couple of problems, and I have come here not to chew bubble gum and kick butt, but instead to ask for some help.  The issues I'm seeing:

1. I am limited to 30 parts in the VAB, and I only have 192k in funds.  So I cannot upgrade the VAB to accommodate enough parts for this Mun landing tutorial (I built out the rocket, eliminating the landing gear, batteries, and the service bay, and that gets me down to 43 parts).  I cannot find another decent tutorial on how to build a rocket designed for a Mun fly-by, although I have seen at least one other one about building a rocket in general.  But that one doesn't really go into what is needed on an early-career rocket to do a fly-by of the Mun.
2. I created a save game for being able to test things out so that it doesn't impact my actual career game, and I "cheated" to give myself enough funds to upgrade the VAB and build/launch the rocket I mentioned above.  Interestingly enough, it has enough power to get to an Ap that would intersect with the Mun's orbit...on Year 1, Day 6, Hour 4, Minute 48.  That's from the default launchpad, and I have not opened the settings to allow for the other sites (and I'm not sure I will).  The rocket designed in the tutorial above doesn't have enough juice in it to get to the appropriate Ap and to the appropriate spot to do a fly-by with the Mun in its current position, so I'm stuck either fast-forwarding an entire year before launch, or finding a tutorial on how to do this regardless of Mun position relative to Kerbin.  I saw a couple of tutorials about landing on the Mun (Early Career Mun Landing and How to Land on the Mun), but both of them are more focused about landing than they are about actually getting there.  Lot of good information in them, but not really what I need.

So, I'm at a point where I need to ask for help from the Community.  Are there any tutorials related directly to the 2 above things I'm asking about?  I need one on how to build an early-career Mun rocket with less than 30 parts, and one about how to actually get to the Mun from my current position.  To be fair, I have activated one of the Fundraising activities from the Administration building, so if anyone has any ideas on how I can increase my current funds to update the VAB I'm all ears.  And to be clear, the only contracts I have left are for tourists, parts I don't have yet, and the Flea test (which I refuse to do because, really, that slow at that altitude?).

[antipro]

@Popestar I removed some parts from my Mun Flyby vessel, this can flyby the mun in low space so <30Km(3x Science Multiplier) and you can add 6 or 7 parts more.
I'm not sure If I've understood your 2nd question, I don't really know why you have to wait a year, but I suggest to upgrade the "Tracking Station" and "Mission Control" buildings so you easily see when to burn by create and move your node around the orbit.
I'm quite sure that if you accept some contracts and you did not buy the needed parts yet, the game lends them to you.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by antipro

[jimmymcgoochie]

If you just want to fly by the Mun and come back, it’s more than possible to do that with all level 1 buildings. A probe is slightly easier than a crewed mission as probes are lighter, but you’ll get more science with a Kerbal on board to do crew and (if possible) EVA reports.

The best way to do a fly-by is to get a free return trajectory, so that the rocket comes back to Kerbin without needing any additional thrust after the transfer burn. It’s really hard to do without patched conics so is best performed with a level 2 tracking station, but if you’re using a probe then just bombing past the Mun before transmitting back what science you can isn’t a terrible idea.

[Popestar]

So, I am able to get up there and, with a bit of back-and-forth, figure out the right trajectory to do a fly-by.  Now my problem is that I cannot seem to flatten out my inbound trajectory enough so that I don't explode upon entering the atmosphere.  The craft tends to be moving too fast, and even with sitting in retrograde and firing up the engine, I can't seem to slow down enough and not overheat.  I also cannot seem to get a maneuver to be set up to flatten out enough, with the craft coming down far too fast and hot.

I'm at my wits' end on this.  If I cannot get to the Mun and back, I'm pretty much done with the game as I cannot move on without doing that.  Can someone please help me out here?  What are the specs of the craft I should be building?  What trajectory should I be aiming for?  How do I flatten this out enough?

Again, I'm ready to give up.  It cannot possibly be this hard.

[antipro]

21 minutes ago, Popestar said:

Now my problem is that I cannot seem to flatten out my inbound trajectory enough so that I don't explode upon entering the atmosphere.  The craft tends to be moving too fast, and even with sitting in retrograde and firing up the engine, I can't seem to slow down enough and not overheat.

"flatten out?" I'm sorry but I can't translate it. I find you explode almost weird. you don't even need to decelerate I think.
Just enter atmosphere with only the 3 main parts: Pod, Parachute and Heat Shield. It's impossible you will explode at that speed.

Edited October 8, 2020 by antipro

[Superfluous J]

23 minutes ago, Popestar said:

It cannot possibly be this hard.

Yes. It can.

Space is hard. There's a reason we've not left LKO with people since the 70s.

Space in KSP is not so bad as in real life, but it's still hard.

Take solace in the fact that simply by going to Mun in the first place, you've traveled further from Kerbin than most players of the game. They all quit because it was too hard. But not you. Don't give up now!

Anyway, generally the problem coming home from Mun in early career is that you dive too deep too fast. I find a periapsis around 40km with no slowing down first to be safe.

If you can slow down, do it in space with a maneuver node that uses all your fuel and leaves your periapsis at 40km.

If you still blow up I want to see a picture of your ship as it's re-entering, with all the flight info guis up.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Superfluous J

[Popestar]

4 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Yes. It can.

Space is hard. There's a reason we've not left LKO with people since the 70s.

If it's so hard, then how have so many people been able to do it without being told how?  And what is my major malfunction that I can't figure it out?

[antipro]

10 minutes ago, Popestar said:

And what is my major malfunction that I can't figure it out?

imho you have to get more science as possible. in LKO every EVA report gives you 24 points in each biome. I suggest x-science mod.
with the 2nd launch you can reach high space(>250Km) and before deorbit, return to the KSC and accept the contract "make eva and return to kerbin from its orbit" to get extra funds.

Edited October 8, 2020 by antipro

[Popestar]

1 minute ago, antipro said:

imho you have to get more science as possible. in LKO every EVA report gives you 24 points in each biome. I suggest x-science mod.
with the 2nd launch you can reach high space(>250Km) and before deorbit, return to the KSC and accept the contract "make eva and return to kerbin from its orbit" to get extra funds.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm really frustrated.  How do I know what biome I'm over when scanning the planet is 300 science points on its own, which doesn't include getting that far in the tech tree?  And where are the biomes located?

I'm just really frustrated today.  While I'm the type of person who learns by doing, I still need someone to show me the way.  Which I've asked for multiple times, only to be told "it's hard".  Again, if it's so hard, then how come so many people did it without a tutorial?  And if they needed a tutorial, why won't anyone show me which ones to use?

[Fierce Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Popestar said:

 

Again, I'm ready to give up.  It cannot possibly be this hard.

 

My toughts when starting out, I don't know how I managed lol. Still, have in mind that this is actual rocket science.

You probably have either no automated probe parts or the most basic one that sucks, so let's go for a manned mission.

I use a popular technique, design from the ending towards the begining, so, the return pod

1) A pod for Jeb Kerman, with a parachute on top and a heat shield at the bottom. All this are needed to return safely.

->a decoupler in here

2) A space faring stage. We will be using the biggest tank you have, FL-T200? x4 and a Reliant engine. This gives about 2500 m/s in the vaccum. Place 2 batteries here.

->a decoupler here

3) A helper stage. This one is simply a Thumper solid booster, with 3 radial decouplers.

4) 3 Thumpers mounted on the sides over the decouplers. Add an AV-R8 wing on each of them.

 

Now, to fly:

- Fire the 3 thumpers, but leave the 4 middle one intact, and a few seconds later rotate SIGHTY to the right so you point to the East, about 10 to 15º, no more than that. These will take you about 35-45 Km up.

-Decouple the trio and try to put the ship 45º to the East, it will go slow, but you have the time. Fire the 4th Thumper.

-Once depleted, decouple and wait until almost reaching the Ap. You should be around 100km up. Point paralel to the planet, and fire the Reliant.

-Stop when your PE is more than 70km (the limit of Kerbin's atmosphere). Now, the difficult part.

-Since you probably have the level 1 radar station on the base, you have to eyeball this. You have to calculate where the Mun will be, with about a 60º arc between current and to be position.

 

-Once you fly by, reduce your orbit until your PE is about 45Km, decouple the Pod and wait. Upon hitting atmosphere, point the shield forward, and use the parachute. Mission accomplished.

[Superfluous J]

20 minutes ago, Popestar said:

If it's so hard, then how have so many people been able to do it without being told how?  And what is my major malfunction that I can't figure it out?

Because some purple can bang their head on a rock until it breaks. The rest of us didn't figure out everything without help.

Sometimes you can figure it out. Sometimes you need to settle for understanding it after you're told how to proceed and then try it.

[Dr. Kerbal]

Use all the cheapest but most Lear gets part possible. Or just play with it a bit, and do that thingy. Or just take on contracts.

[Popestar]

7 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Sometimes you need to settle for understanding it after you're told how to proceed and then try it.

And I asked for help, and all you told me was "it's hard".  That doesn't really help me out.

I put it away for the day as I'm just getting more and more irritated.  I'll come back to it tomorrow and see if I can't figure this out.  I don't know - maybe I'll try adjusting the Pe once I'm at Ap, and then readjusting Ap once I'm at Pe to see if I can alter my trajectory enough to not die upon re-entry.  Beyond that, I'll probably have to post images so people can see what I'm working with and maybe figure out what I'm doing wrong.

For what it's worth, this is a manned mission precisely to do an EVA near the Mun to collect science.  And I just cannot let Jeb die.

[Reactordrone]

If you want ideas for small ships that can get to the Mun you might consider looking through the Kerbal caveman challenge thread.

[antipro]

36 minutes ago, Popestar said:

How do I know what biome I'm over

x-science tells you what situation you are in every moment and do many others cool indispensable things.
I'm serious, without that mod I would not play anymore.
Biomes can be visible by using alt-f12 menu

Edited October 8, 2020 by antipro

[Popestar]

7 minutes ago, antipro said:

x-science tells you what situation you are in every moment and do many others cool indispensable things.
I'm serious, without that mod I would not play anymore.
Biomes can be visible by using alt-f12 menu

I'm trying to do this stock, but I may breakdown and pick up a mod or two for this.

[Spricigo]

 

It seems to me that you still need to learn some very basic things before going to the Mun.

Thinking that you need to wait a whole year for a launch window to the Mun for example, it screams "I have no idea how orbital mechanics works" . The Mun pass over KSC every 6h,  That is how often you get a launch window if you insist in a direct launch but you get transfer windows much more often from a nice low equatorial orbit. 

Spoiler

 

  

You can do a flyby (or even landing) mission with low tech parts and lvl 1 facilities. But without a basic understanding of orbital mechanics and meeuver, you will struggle even with all parts a unlocked and max level facilities.

[Popestar]

4 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

 

It seems to me that you still need to learn some very basic things before going to the Mun.

Thinking that you need to wait a whole year for a launch window to the Mun for example, it screams "I have no idea how orbital mechanics works" . The Mun pass over KSC every 6h,  That is how often you get a launch window if you insist in a direct launch but you get transfer windows much more often from a nice low equatorial orbit. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  

You can do a flyby (or even landing) mission with low tech parts and lvl 1 facilities. But without a basic understanding of orbital mechanics and meeuver, you will struggle even with all parts a unlocked and max level facilities.

Yeah, I figured that out.  The time calculator in space <> the current time.  Which is confusing on its face.

I figured out a build, I figured out how to get near the Mun.  And yeah, I had to speed up time a bit to get a launch window with a pretty straight trajectory to pass by.  But now my issue, if you would have read my posts, is that I burn up on re-entry.  But, you know, thanks for just telling me I don't know what I'm doing without actually helping me.  Because, you know, everybody should just know orbital mechanics on their own.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Popestar

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

And I asked for help, and all you told me was "it's hard".  That doesn't really help me out.

I also told you

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Anyway, generally the problem coming home from Mun in early career is that you dive too deep too fast. I find a periapsis around 40km with no slowing down first to be safe.

If you can slow down, do it in space with a maneuver node that uses all your fuel and leaves your periapsis at 40km.

If you still blow up I want to see a picture of your ship as it's re-entering, with all the flight info guis up.

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Superfluous J

[antipro]

8 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I want to see a picture of your ship

I'm agree, and even better I would like to see a video of the whole mission.
also a couple of screenshots of yours KSC and "R&D Tech-Tree"

Edited October 9, 2020 by antipro

[MarsUltor]

1 hour ago, Popestar said:

Yeah, I figured that out.  The time calculator in space <> the current time.  Which is confusing on its face.

I figured out a build, I figured out how to get near the Mun.  And yeah, I had to speed up time a bit to get a launch window with a pretty straight trajectory to pass by.  But now my issue, if you would have read my posts, is that I burn up on re-entry.  But, you know, thanks for just telling me I don't know what I'm doing without actually helping me.  Because, you know, everybody should just know orbital mechanics on their own.

Cool off, take a breath... I’m sorry to repeat something you have heard multiple times, but “this game is not easy“... it has a ridiculously high learning curve. This game is lots of fun, but you almost need to be willing to get frustrated, because failure is part of the fun.

 

First, check out the kerbal wiki, there are a ton of great tutorials and resources there that can give you a clue as to what your particular problem may be. Also, YouTube is a great resource to see how people design ships and mission plan... I didn’t fully understand many of the fundamentals until I saw some videos that helped me create more efficient lifter stages...

 

Second, try some other contract... these have the dual purpose of earning you more cash and familiarizing yourself with gameplay fundamentals. Once you’ve earned more cash, at least, level up your tracking station to level 2... this way, you see patched conics (it shows your predicted trajectory once you’ve left a bodies SOI)... if you can also level up the mission control building, you can make maneuver nodes, which facilitates the ability to plan trajectories with a bit more precision.

 

Third, perhaps make a new save game with an easier setting... this allows you to earn more cash and science easier (or play in sandbox mode and get used to all the gameplay elements without the constraints of science and funding)

 

Many of us want to help you, but we need to see pictures, or need you to use more appropriate jargon, for us to fully under stand your problem. It seems like you are coming in “too steep,” meaning your periapsis on approach to kerbin is less than 25-30km, and/or you don’t have a heat shield?

[Echo__3]

This video demonstrates exactly what you are trying to do.

 

[Entropian]

4 hours ago, Popestar said:

If it's so hard, then how have so many people been able to do it without being told how?

I was already really into rocketry before I heard of KSP.  I'm pretty sure other people had other rocket-related backgrounds before they found KSP.

[Popestar]

Ok, so several things here.

1. I asked for help.  In fact, my first post literally asked for tutorials on what I was trying to accomplish.  I got none.  I got an explanation to get my Pe to 40k, an explanation of a type of ship to build, and told to look in the caveman thread.  Without a link, by the way.  So forgive me for being confused as I didn't really get what I was asking for.  Heck, I even gave a couple of links up front to show that I at least tried before asking.
2. I am tired of being talked down to.  Not everyone is a rocket science or understands orbital mechanics.  To have multiple people talk to me as if I'm stupid does not help.  In fact, [snip] response is highly condescending.  And it reminds me once again that new community members should keep their mouths shut while the vets lord over us.  Yes, that's how it felt to read "You need to learn basic stuff" as if I know nothing.
3. This is supposed to be a game.  I get that it's based on real mechanics, but at its core this is still a game.  And right now it doesn't feel that way.
4. Pictures I can provide when I'm at my machine, assuming...
5. ...I have a plan to try tomorrow that may work.  I have a game saved right after the maneuver to get me to the Mun, and I have an idea on what to do.  Thank you @Superfluous J for the tip.

I've stated I was frustrated and asked for help.  And I got treated like a stupid child for it.  If that's what the community is about, I won't ask for help.  Unfortunately, that's not the first time I've made that comment on these boards.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Vanamonde

[HvP]

@Popestar Ok, first of all, I'm sorry that your experience here has been so frustrating - both in the game and on the forum.

Most people here really really do not want to be unhelpful, but frustration can be a two way street. It's also frustrating for us too sometimes when we don't have all the info about a person's situation to make good suggestions. And others unintentionally assume too much about a new player's understanding of the game.  I think that's what's happened here.

So let's take a step back and try to start over. I'll start with just a few basics from my perspective:

Can you get into a stable orbit around Kerbin first? This is a situation of walking before you can run. It sounds to me like you are trying to launch from the ground, straight up, and hoping your trajectory will pass by the Mun if you fly up long enough. And it is possible to do this, but it isn't very easy to plan or execute. Instead try to put yourself into a circular orbit around the planet Kerbin first. The best way to do that is to start pitching your rocket over gradually in a long arc until you are aiming at the horizon around the time you leave the atmosphere. Then coast to the highest point of that arc (your apoapsis) and start a prograde burn there until you are in a complete orbit.

Now that you are in orbit you can find the best time to start a burn to send you to the Mun. The best place to do that is when you can just see the Mun rising over Kerbin's horizon in front of you, and then burn prograde until your new orbit just touches the Mun's orbit. You won't need to wait any more time than one orbit to start your transfer this way.

When coming back from the Mun you should be careful that your path entering Kerbin's atmosphere isn't too low or you'll either burn up or crash into the ground too fast. Aim for a periapsis in the atmosphere of about 30km and you should be safe. The air should slow you down, but this is assuming you are only reentering with the capsule and have detached the rest of the ship below it first.

Now, maybe I have made some poor assumptions about what you are trying to do. If so, please let us know specifically what is different about which details are different in your approach and we can talk through it.

Also here is a basic tutorial for landing on the Mun by the awesome Matt Lowne that might help. However, it does assume upgraded facilities but if your rocket can make it then you should be able to adapt his methods to your own.

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by HvP