Draggable Patched Conics

[MechBFP]

I was playing KSP and it hit me that something would be an amazing QoL feature would be draggable patched conics!
I don't mean draggable handles on the little maneuver node like you can do in KSP, I mean dragging the actual patched conic line itself into the position you want around the moon/planet.

How many times have you wanted to enter a polar orbit, and had to mess with all 3 to 6 of the maneuver node handles until you finally were able to get the patched conic line into the position you wanted? How many times have you moved those handles only to have it fly off into interstellar space causing you to have to fiddle to find your way back or to simply start over and try again?

How awesome would it be to be able to click on that patched conics line and simple drag it around the sphere of the moon/planet until it is in the position you want, with the ability to swap the direction of the path as well?

While dragging it around I think the altitude would have to be locked and adjusted separately, and it could also do a transparent sphere overlay that would show you were it is possible and impossible to drag the path to.

Edited February 17, 2021 by MechBFP
Typo's

[shdwlrd]

Would be handy when setting up gravity assists, rendezvous, and specific orbits from deep space.

[Flavio hc16]

on one hand it's nice, on the other hand you would lose a big part of the game: learning how the movement on the 3 axis work, it would be a bit too easy to just set the altitude and make the game do the rest

[Wubslin]

11 minutes ago, Flavio hc16 said:

on one hand it's nice, on the other hand you would lose a big part of the game: learning how the movement on the 3 axis work, it would be a bit too easy to just set the altitude and make the game do the rest

I agree. This would totally take away any intuitive understanding of how impulsive maneuvers effect your orbit. You might as well start a maneuver node, drag the orbit around, and look away while you do your burn without ever being the wiser about how spaceflight works. This is a bit like using mechjeb to automatically plan and execute interplanetary transfers. Where's the fun? If anything new navigational features should only give the player more information to work with, not shield them from the nitty gritty details. For instance it would be great to see clear numerical values for current planetary phase angles, and to be able to generate porkchop plots. But clicking on a point on the plot and being told when and how to burn to get that transfer? You might as well not be flying the vehicle at that point.

[mcwaffles2003]

It's a nice idea but think of the difficulties we face sometimes when placing parts in the SPH/VAB.  You would only be able to drag a 3D orbit in 2 dimensions and I see it creating more hassle, not less. Perhaps a system where you can click and drag an (apo/peri)apsis and it is extended in the plane of the already existing orbit though or alt+clicking an orbit allows you to make a rotational axis node at that point for changing the inclination of the orbit.

[MechBFP]

52 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Perhaps a system where you can click and drag an (apo/peri)apsis and it is extended in the plane of the already existing orbit though or alt+clicking an orbit allows you to make a rotational axis node at that point for changing the inclination of the orbit.

That is actually more where my train of thought was going as to the actual use case. I agree that using normal maneuver nodes are still usual for reasons already mentioned, but fine tuning an orbit with them is a very painful process, and that is the piece that needs improvement. 
 

EDIT: I am also open to the idea of adding maneuver node improvements to the tech tree or building upgrades or whatever, similar to unlocking the node in KSP 1. That way you force the (career) player to use it the normal way first to hopefully gain a better understanding of its usage first. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by MechBFP

[mattinoz]

5 hours ago, Flavio hc16 said:

on one hand it's nice, on the other hand you would lose a big part of the game: learning how the movement on the 3 axis work, it would be a bit too easy to just set the altitude and make the game do the rest

Or does it become a stealth opportunity to teach people about exactly how the controls work?

like say having snap planes colour coded to the sliders.

[Wubslin]

6 hours ago, mattinoz said:

Or does it become a stealth opportunity to teach people about exactly how the controls work?

like say having snap planes colour coded to the sliders.

Better yet, just having an overhauled flight UI would be all anyone needs. Don't you just hate creating a maneuver node, and then as you change view focus the slider controls flick away? The time it bothers me the most is every time I'm trying to go to Jool. I'll have a general transfer orbit completed, and then I'll set up a node halfway up the trip for the like 20-some-odd meter per second burn needed to turn a glancing Jool intercept into a competent Tylo braking slingshot. But when I double click on Jool to make it the focus, the maneuver node controls disappear and now I'm halfway across the system from that node. Every time I'll end up swiveling all over the place just to find that little brown orange icon and click on it. If there was just a sidebar listing every sequential burn and how expensive it will be, that would save major headaches every time.

[The Aziz]

Just improved node placement is all I need. Snap (maybe not automatic but with mod key) to AP/Pe, An/Dn, or any other static point in orbit, that sort of thing.

[jimmymcgoochie]

@Wubslinyou do know that the feature you’re asking for already exists, right?

When in map view, click the little pinkish icon at the bottom left of the screen and it opens the maneuver widget instead; you can switch between nodes, adjust nodes precisely either by using a snap-value version of the node gizmo in map view (it can snap to values from mm/s to km/s) or by typing in the numbers manually for all three axes, as well as moving the node around your orbit and moving forward/back orbits. Very helpful for adjusting your trajectory when the node is far away from what you’re looking at, just be careful not to click the same button too many times as they have a habit of expanding until they block off all the other buttons if you do that.

There’s a mod that can change how nodes operate, changing the normal/anti normal adjusters so that it changes the inclination without affecting apo/periapsis, but I can’t remember what it’s called.

 

I’d like to see a small selection of auto-node options added as a stock feature- things like circularising, Hohmann transfers within the same SOI and inclination changes would be particularly useful. Select a target e.g. another craft or a moon as your target and clicking it again would offer you the option to create a node to match its inclination, intercept the target etc.

[Wubslin]

Just now, jimmymcgoochie said:

@Wubslinyou do know that the feature you’re asking for already exists, right?

When in map view, click the little pinkish icon at the bottom left of the screen and it opens the maneuver widget instead; you can switch between nodes, adjust nodes precisely either by using a snap-value version of the node gizmo in map view (it can snap to values from mm/s to km/s) or by typing in the numbers manually for all three axes, as well as moving the node around your orbit and moving forward/back orbits. Very helpful for adjusting your trajectory when the node is far away from what you’re looking at, just be careful not to click the same button too many times as they have a habit of expanding until they block off all the other buttons if you do that.

There’s a mod that can change how nodes operate, changing the normal/anti normal adjusters so that it changes the inclination without affecting apo/periapsis, but I can’t remember what it’s called.

 

I’d like to see a small selection of auto-node options added as a stock feature- things like circularising, Hohmann transfers within the same SOI and inclination changes would be particularly useful. Select a target e.g. another craft or a moon as your target and clicking it again would offer you the option to create a node to match its inclination, intercept the target etc.

Yeah, I use the maneuver mode all the time. What I'm saying is that little window, along with the draggable widgets on the maneuver node itself, go away as soon as you select something else on the map. I do admit that the feature is a boon, and being able to change granularity allows for true fine tuning that's never been done before, but I want to have immediate access to all of my burns in the map view no matter what I'm doing or what I've clicked on. I guess I never noticed that you can switch between nodes using that selector, but ideally I'd want to see every single one at the same time as well as a grand total delta-v expense. Ideally it would look something like this:

[linuxgurugamer]

Take a look at this: 

 

[Kerminator K-100]

On 2/18/2021 at 5:54 AM, jimmymcgoochie said:

There’s a mod that can change how nodes operate, changing the normal/anti normal adjusters so that it changes the inclination without affecting apo/periapsis, but I can’t remember what it’s called.

Its by DMagic, I think its called Advanced Maneuver Node or Better Maneuver Node

 

[Bej Kerman]

On 2/18/2021 at 3:07 AM, mattinoz said:

On 2/17/2021 at 9:39 PM, Flavio hc16 said:

on one hand it's nice, on the other hand you would lose a big part of the game: learning how the movement on the 3 axis work, it would be a bit too easy to just set the altitude and make the game do the rest

Or does it become a stealth opportunity to teach people about exactly how the controls work?

like say having snap planes colour coded to the sliders.

Learning how burns in certain directions affect your orbit is integral to KSP and you can't do without it.

[shdwlrd]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

Learning how burns in certain directions affect your orbit is integral to KSP and you can't do without it.

I won't disagree, but after the thousand time of doing it, I would want something to make it easier.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, shdwlrd said:

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Learning how burns in certain directions affect your orbit is integral to KSP and you can't do without it.

I won't disagree, but after the thousand time of doing it, I would want something to make it easier.

IMHO it's easy as it is. It only takes less than a minute to set up a planetary transfer from a parking orbit.

[shdwlrd]

14 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

IMHO it's easy as it is. It only takes less than a minute to set up a planetary transfer from a parking orbit.

But doing the rendezvous into anything but a equatorial orbit, that's a pain in the butt.

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, shdwlrd said:

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

IMHO it's easy as it is. It only takes less than a minute to set up a planetary transfer from a parking orbit.

But doing the rendezvous into anything but a equatorial orbit, that's a pain in the butt.

In my experience it's hardly a pain in the butt. 

[MechBFP]

37 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

In my experience it's hardly a pain in the butt. 

Not anymore, after presumably hundreds of hours of experience.

[shdwlrd]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

In my experience it's hardly a pain in the butt. 

 

24 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Not anymore, after presumably hundreds of hours of experience.

But when you keep losing the maneuver maker, and don't find the maneuver widget useful in that situation, yes, it's a pain in the butt.

[Meecrob]

This sounds an awful lot like an external system like GPS so maybe only available after you place a certain amount of satellites with the correct antennae around the target body?

[MechBFP]

1 hour ago, Meecrob said:

This sounds an awful lot like an external system like GPS so maybe only available after you place a certain amount of satellites with the correct antennae around the target body?

My main issue with that approach is that it makes it very "grindy" anytime you start a new game after you have already done it once before. I would likely just cheat satellites into orbit to avoid it at that point or install a mod that removes that requirement.

[Bej Kerman]

4 hours ago, MechBFP said:

4 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

In my experience it's hardly a pain in the butt. 

Not anymore, after presumably hundreds of hours of experience.

Maneuver nodes are easy for people with "presumably hundreds of hours of experience" and teach newbies the basics of orbital flight. Win win.

3 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

But when you keep losing the maneuver maker, and don't find the maneuver widget useful in that situation, yes, it's a pain in the butt.

The manoeuvre widget is most useful when you keep losing the manoeuvre maker.

[Meecrob]

5 hours ago, MechBFP said:

My main issue with that approach is that it makes it very "grindy" anytime you start a new game after you have already done it once before. I would likely just cheat satellites into orbit to avoid it at that point or install a mod that removes that requirement.

I'm not quite sure how to reply to this. I can see what you are getting at, but your solution kinda removes the fun for some players. To be honest, it moves the game closer to "arcade" playstyle. I want to tell the game what I want to do, not ask the game to let me do something.

[Wubslin]

3 hours ago, Meecrob said:

I'm not quite sure how to reply to this. I can see what you are getting at, but your solution kinda removes the fun for some players. To be honest, it moves the game closer to "arcade" playstyle. I want to tell the game what I want to do, not ask the game to let me do something.

Lucky for MechBFP we've heard some hints by the devs that there might be a "fly and forget" system of automating out monotony from the game!