Non-Binary Kerbals and Gender Non-conforming Kerbals In KSP2?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

No naughty bits, no full stop. As said, I could put up human pictures where you wouldn't be able to tell who has what. Not saying that they didn't say a gender originally or that it is not in the save file because it made it simple for the programmer. Just that is not stressed and it is up to the individual player to believe what they want about their Kerbal.

It's all about presentation, has nothing to do with genitalia. When the argument for having female kerbals was made it was all about presentation because kerbal astronauts were all originally very much in the mold of some male test pilot from the fifties. So rather than getting hung up on "naughty bits" instead focus on what people want to see, that being kerbals who present as other than gender-binary. That's what this is about.

Edited October 26, 2022 by regex

[ColdJ]

1 minute ago, regex said:

that being kerbals who present as other than gender-binary.

What does a non gender binary person look like?

[Guest]

Just now, ColdJ said:

What does a non gender binary person look like?

Whatever they want. Kerbals in KSP1 present in two different ways. They should be able to present in a myriad of ways.

[ColdJ]

42 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

So simply this thread should have just been. "Can we have no restrictions on which facial features or hair styles go on which shaped heads please?" With the addition "And could we be free to mix and match in any way we want?"

 

2 minutes ago, regex said:

Whatever they want. Kerbals in KSP1 present in two different ways. They should be able to present in a myriad of ways.

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

 

 

Right now, in code and presentation, kerbals are and present as male or female. Intentionally. That means they're literally "gender binary". There's no politics there unless you insist on them and the definition is crystal clear. The ask is also very clear, "Non-binary and gender non-conforming". It doesn't have to be political, it's very clear. All it asks is for kerbals to present in more ways than male or female.

Why are you so hung up on the words if you generally agree?

Edited October 26, 2022 by regex

[ColdJ]

Oh and by the way @regex I truly don't think you meant it, but to say that by looking at someone you automatically know how they feel and present as a person is very insulting. Seeing someone who looks feminine and labeling them a woman or looks masculine and labeling them a man is making an assumption. Our identities as human beings go far deeper than our outer features.

[MechBFP]

9 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Gender is many non-mutually exclusive things. It is a political subject, that's just the reality.

A definition of "politics":

1a : the art or science of government

b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy

c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

 

So if you consider gender political based on the definition above, then by definition everything in existence would be also have to be considered political as a result since everything can be impacted by governance. 
At that point the argument that gender is political is just being pedantic, is it not?
 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

Oh and by the way @regex I truly don't think you meant it, but to say that by looking at someone you automatically know how they feel and present as a person is very insulting. Seeing someone who looks feminine and labeling them a woman or looks masculine and labeling them a man is making an assumption. Our identities as human beings go far deeper than our outer features.

Cool, I agree. So maybe you can understand why some people look at the kerbals as given and don't see themselves but instead see a very gender-binary game.

[t_v]

13 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

I also don't see why gender needs to be codified in the code itself. "Male" and "female" kerbals should behave the same. I don't object to allowing mixing of "male" and "female" features. Why not.

Gender is many non-mutually exclusive things. It is a political subject, that's just the reality

Indeed, just allow Kerbal customization, with traits unrestricted by a male or female status, and be done with it. No more labelling. 

Its already something they've focused on, even though I really don't care if all my Kerbals are 100% identical clones, and Kerbal biology is such that they reproduce by asexual budding.

Well, before Valentina, it was just a set of identical looking aliens. One could write off any resemblance to a certain human gender as coincidental/irrelevant.

Then valentina came in, and the parallels with human sex/gender became obvious

This is it. The discussion was started as a broad request and facial features is the focus right now. I’m pretty sure that no one in support of the idea brought up genitalia as a concern, kerbals probably don’t share the same sex structure anyways, they are plants or something similar. Your last point about the parallels is prevalent: even if in-game there isn’t a label on gender, the parallels are there and so the systems matter. Just allowing for full randomization will represent people when looking at that parallel, and will distance kerbals from human gender norms, allowing that parallel to be less recognizable. That way, people have an easier time making the kerbals whatever they want them to be without the underlying parallel to humans. 

[kerbiloid]

20 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

So in mods, not stock?

In mods.

***

The search of "female" in 1.12.3 stock files brought 69 files containing the word "female". in the character generator, mesh names, also "kerbalEVAfemale.cfg" and "kerbalEVASlimSuitFemale.cfg".

[ColdJ]

5 minutes ago, regex said:

Cool, I agree. So maybe you can understand why some people look at the kerbals as given and don't see themselves but instead see a very gender-binary game.

Only if they choose to. This is my concern in the world. How do we get to a place where we all just care about each other and don't get hung up on trivialities like your particular mixture of human. If both those who see anything other than binary as a threat and something to be removed, and those who aren't binary, keep promoting that the differance is a big deal and ostracising. This could have been just "Can we have many different ways to customize kerbals into any look we like" but instead it became "I refuse to identify with 2 genderless creatures that have different heads" I want one that is labeled as non binary." That is why it became a big debate. It pulled in human predjudice to a game that is in no way related. Getting hung up on what it says in the game files is just looking to make an issue where there needs not to be one. KSP is about creation, exploration and inclusion. This forum goes out all over the world. There are tons of things going on in the world right now that I would happily rant about but that is not allowed here.

So why it matters is because the topic is phrased to pick sides. There are no sides. There is just us.

Now. I am not ignoring you from now on, but it has gone past 2am where I am and it is time I was asleep.

I hope you get what I am saying. Have a great (insert your time of day here.)

[Bej Kerman]

5 hours ago, royying said:

This game is all about killing Kerbals by explosion or strand them in deep space for decades, are you sure adding Non-Binary Kerbals is a good idea?

Let's go back to 2015....

"This game is all about killing Kerbals or torturing them in hideous ways. Is adding female Kerbals really a good idea?"

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

How do we get to a place where we all just care about each other and don't get hung up on trivialities like your particular mixture of human.

When people stop getting hung up on the fact that "trivialities" are meaningful to representation. When people stop quibbling over the fact that the words "gender non-conforming" were used. When people actually start caring about the person and what's important to them rather than trying to impose their own ideals.

40 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

This could have been just "Can we have many different ways to customize kerbals into any look we like"

That's actually, quite literally, what this thread is about. Some people just chose to focus on the fact that "LGBTQIA+", "gender binary", and "gender non-comforming" were words used in the title and OP instead of the actual meat of the ask. If you want to get to this mythical place where we're "not hung up on trivialities" then it's best to stop getting hung up on trivialities.

40 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

"I refuse to identify with 2 genderless creatures that have different heads" I want one that is labeled as non binary."

OP never once used the word "label" in this thread. Not once. The first time it is used is by mcwaffles2003 on page 2 and then by you on page 3.

40 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

So why it matters is because the topic is phrased to pick sides.

It's not though. At all. It uses words that have an actual, non-threatening meaning. It's asking for more representation, inclusion, and tolerance. Instead of getting hung up on those words try understanding what is actually being asked for.

Edited October 26, 2022 by regex

[magnemoe]

One question, How would you know? Kerbals has no personal dialogue and male and female looks much the same except some facial features and females tend to have longer hair as far as I know. 

 

[kerbiloid]

7 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

One question, How would you know? Kerbals has no personal dialogue and male and female looks much the same except some facial features and females tend to have longer hair as far as I know. 

 

Moment of inertia. It differs.

[BigStar Aerospace]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

One question, How would you know?

We make them look androgynous. A mix between the two (male and female) facial structures. It would be quite simple actually, a kerbal dev could probably make a good one in I'd say a week or two if they had nothing else to do.

4 hours ago, ColdJ said:

What does a non gender binary person look like?

AN·DROG·Y·NOUS
/anˈdräjənəs/
Adjective
Partly male and partly female in appearance; of indeterminate gender identity or sexual category.
"A stunningly androgynous dancer."

[MechBFP]

3 minutes ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

We make them look androgynous. A mix between the two (male and female) facial structures. It would be quite simple actually, a kerbal dev could probably make a good one in I'd say a week or two if they had nothing else to do.

Interestingly if you take a look at the Early Access art here:

I have seen a number of people online say all 3 Kerbals here are female, while others think the middle one is male. 
For me the middle one looks like a female when I envision an older lady with a perm. But it also looks like a male to me when I envision a younger male with natural curl for hair.

[BigStar Aerospace]

2 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

I have seen a number of people online say all 3 Kerbals here are female, while others think the middle one is male. 

Based on Kerbal biology, the chin of the middle one would make it male, but remember, there's a difference between sexual category and gender. So yes, that is an androgynous kerbal that may be identified as male because of the chin or even female because of the hair.

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

Moment of inertia. It differs.

Don't worry, I'll slam them each into the runway equally.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Having all that implied variation in the astronaut kerbals would be awesome. Give us tons of resting faces, hair styles, head shapes, eyebrows...

Quote

I have seen a number of people online say all 3 Kerbals here are female, while others think the middle one is male. 

To me the two on the left look male but you can see the eyebrow on the far left kerbal, which would indicate female in KSP1 terms. One more reason variation is awesome IMO.

Edited October 26, 2022 by regex

[kerbiloid]

18 minutes ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Moment of inertia. It differs.

Don't worry, I'll slam them each into the runway equally.

I meant the beard.

[BigStar Aerospace]

9 hours ago, royying said:

This game is all about killing Kerbals by explosion or strand them in deep space for decades, are you sure adding Non-Binary Kerbals is a good idea?

Yes, I enjoy smashing every type of kerbal into the surface of the Mun at 3,000 m/s equally. I do not discriminate.

Just now, kerbiloid said:

I meant the beard.

What beard?

[KerikBalm]

4 hours ago, MechBFP said:

A definition of "politics":

1a : the art or science of government

b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy

c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

 

So if you consider gender political based on the definition above, then by definition everything in existence would be also have to be considered political as a result since everything can be impacted by governance. 
At that point the argument that gender is political is just being pedantic, is it not?
 

Another definition:

"Politics is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals"

Biological sex at least is important to current group decisions: who to send to war, how much time off one is allotted after the birth of a child, who is allowed to compete with whom.

Similarly, whether any credence should be given to the differentiation between subjective gender vs objective sex in relation to the above issues is an undecided matter.

It is political, but then again, almost anything relevant to anyone can be political, I would just limit it to matters currently under public debate, "decided issues" are no longer political (such as slavery is bad, at least in most of the world)

But we don't need to discuss the politics

My view is that in KSP 1, there are 3 types of kerbals that I care about: scientists, engineers, and pilots 

The only Kerbal customization I would care to see in KSP2 would be some sort of RPG skill tree, allowing for cross-training of skills, allowing there to be just one type of kerbal - or maybe 2: ground bound scrubs and astronaut kerbals

 

 

[BigStar Aerospace]

6 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

My view is that in KSP 1, there are 3 types of kerbals that I care about: scientists, engineers, and pilots 

 

That same argument was made when they tried adding the female kerbals.

[Bej Kerman]

8 minutes ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

15 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

My view is that in KSP 1, there are 3 types of kerbals that I care about: scientists, engineers, and pilots 

 

That same argument was made when they tried adding the female kerbals.

Tried? They were rather successful! Not a soul complaining about female kerbals right now. But having non-binary kerbals steps a line for some reason. I wonder why.

This one is addressed to the entire thread. Don't run away from things just because they're "new and scary".

As for how this would be implemented, Kerbals already have their gender labelled in the astronaut complex. You can figure out the rest.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Bej Kerman

[kerbiloid]

4 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

My view is that in KSP 1, there are 3 types of kerbals that I care about: scientists, engineers, and pilots 

These are Kerbal castes, like the bees and ants have (queen, worker, drone, soldier, lawyer, etc.)

Together with their sex they define six main Kerbal genders: F/M sciensexuals, F/M engenuers, etc.

14 minutes ago, BigStar Aerospace said:

What beard?

Face beard. Next to the mustaches.