Make a Terraforming DLC

[TheLoneOne]

so basicly its mega dumb

[Kerbart]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:49 AM, Vl3d said:

So is interstellar travel.

But we don't know if interstellar is implemented as actual travel with gametime passing, or merely passing through a portal with "and now you're in another system, thousands of years later"

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

But we don't know if interstellar is implemented as actual travel with gametime passing, or merely passing through a portal with "and now you're in another system, thousands of years later"

"An update on Kerbal Space Program 2 and how we're enabling players to travel from planet A orbiting star B to planet C orbiting star D, continuously, without any loading screens, pauses, faked out transitions, "warp drives", or other trickery. We're simulating a multi-light-year spanning 3D volume at a sub-millimeter level of resolution, and enabling players to travel to any point in that space if they can build a ship capable of making the journey. Unprecedented in gaming."

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/paul-furio_kerbal-space-program-2-episode-5-interstellar-activity-6920089169021014016-J_5I

[Kerbart]

53 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

"if they can build a ship capable of making the journey. Unprecedented in gaming."

Is that like the "if" the Spartans used to respond to Philip II of Macedonia?

[pandaman]

My first thought was 'Oh no, not that again'...  And it's not really something of interest  to me. . .  But...

I don't think changing the topography is viable or possible, beyond adding 'stuff' on top.  But I suppose changing the ground colours etc could be doable.  As well as enabling different  scatters.

E.g  Duna.  Perhaps a 'water sphere' could be added in the same way as on Kerbin, Laythe and Eve, and its size gradually increased as sea level rises.  The red colour could turn to green over time, possibly even change the ground 'texture' to look more grassy.  Then add trees etc as ground scatter. 

 

 

 

 

[Vl3d]

6 minutes ago, pandaman said:

My first thought was 'Oh no, not that again'...  And it's not really something of interest  to me. . .  But...

I don't think changing the topography is viable or possible, beyond adding 'stuff' on top.  But I suppose changing the ground colours etc could be doable.  As well as enabling different  scatters.

E.g  Duna.  Perhaps a 'water sphere' could be added in the same way as on Kerbin, Laythe and Eve, and its size gradually increased as sea level rises.  The red colour could turn to green over time, possibly even change the ground 'texture' to look more grassy.  Then add trees etc as ground scatter.

And rivers and waterfalls, like the primordial earth at the beginning of Prometheus! Let's crash comets into Duna and make an ocean!

Edited February 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Drakenred65]

The only thing is terraforming is, quite seriously, a ridiculously massive long term endeavor. 
 

Mars for example needs almost 250 mb of atmosphere. That’s 10¹⁵  tons….or roughly 1 million 1 km comets.

[darthgently]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:02 PM, Kerbart said:

But we don't know if interstellar is implemented as actual travel with gametime passing, or merely passing through a portal with "and now you're in another system, thousands of years later"

But we do know

The easiest way to terraform is to incrementally replace the body with a modified version, so a Kopernicus mod like mechanism that "updates" the planet in the background at best and in between game loads at worse.  But, in-game, it would have to a massively automated process spanning thousands of years and a vast amount of material.    Paraterraforming is probably more KSP speed; surface colonies with biodomes is nacent paraterraforming after all, and we know KSP2 has that, or will with mods 

Edited February 2, 2023 by darthgently

[Drakenred65]

Oh by the way. That gets you a almost pure CO² atmosphere.  Because you kind of need that much CO²  to trigger enough of a greenhouse effect to help warm up the planet.

 

that’s going to cause issues. One creating a breathable atmosphere using photosynthesis is going to be a pain, and that’s assuming you actually want one to start with. Remember Mars gets a fraction of the sunlight that earth gets. So photosynthesis will be slow. And to sustain enough of a greenhouse effect you have to balance CO²  and 0²  levels. Also compared to Earth (78.1%)  Mars(2.6%) (at a fraction of earth atmospheric pressure), functionally has almost No Nitrogen in the atmosphere. So it may be necessary to also  start importing Nitrogen along with the CO² …

[LHACK4142]

I feel like this proposal is kind of like proposing that Valve turns TF2 into a realistic spaceflight simulator game because the bases have rockets in them- it's a sort of interesting idea, but way beyond the scope of the game. It IMO would be a big distraction and would cause the game to lose a lot of focus and purpose. The main point of the game is after all building spaceships, and this essentially makes it into 2 competing, somewhat incompatible games.

[Bej Kerman]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:49 AM, Vl3d said:

So is interstellar travel.

You're underestimating just how long it takes to terraform a planet (and perhaps Aziz  is too). Interstellar is quick and simple compared to this.

On 1/28/2023 at 7:15 PM, kerbiloid said:

It's not about the realism, but about a playable approach.

Spore has a simplified model of climate conditions (there is a window with temperature, humidity, etc.)

While we're at it, why not get rid of seamless interstellar travel for the Spore point-and-click approach and do away with orbital mechanics? After all, "it's not about the realism, but about a playable approach".

Point is, if you ask me, Spore hardly belongs in a discussion about KSP.

[kerbiloid]

13 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

if you ask me, Spore hardly belongs in a discussion about KSP.

KSP is a game about a lonely spaceport on an uninhabited planet.

So, it's not far away from Spore.

[Bej Kerman]

13 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

KSP is a game about a lonely spaceport on an uninhabited planet.

So, it's not far away from Spore.

KSP is a game about planning orbital maneuvers and designing rockets in a semi-realistic environment having to consider most of the core factors that real rocket scientists have to deal with. In Spore, to get to another planet or star system, you just click on it then zoom in.

I could go much, much further, but you're probably joking anyway.

[kerbiloid]

41 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

KSP is a game about planning orbital maneuvers and designing rockets in a semi-realistic environment having to consider most of the core factors that real rocket scientists have to deal with. In Spore, to get to another planet or star system, you just click on it then zoom in.

ISRU KSP models do not differ very much from the Spore terraforming in sense of detalization.

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

ISRU KSP models do not differ very much from the Spore terraforming in sense of detalization.

Irrelevant, KSP 2 is revamping ISRU.

[pandaman]

8 hours ago, Vl3d said:

And rivers and waterfalls, like the primordial earth at the beginning of Prometheus! Let's crash comets into Duna and make an ocean!

I admire your  enthusiasm.

But I do think it's totally out of scope for official DLC.  Both for gameplay style and sheer timescales for anything even feeling realistic.

Definitely hard core, mod only, territory.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Irrelevant, KSP 2 is revamping ISRU.

I doubt it can revamp it significantly, as a simulator of an oil refinery and a metallurgical plant would be unplayable, let alone even a smallest city.

But in any case a biome category defines its terrain (texture, details, etc.)
Thus, changing a biome (and several more around) can change a yellow square of desert into a meadowland.

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, pandaman said:

I admire your  enthusiasm.

But I do think it's totally out of scope for official DLC.  Both for gameplay style and sheer timescales for anything even feeling realistic.

Definitely hard core, mod only, territory.

Gameplay style can be accommodated, timescale and size of undertaking wouldn't be a problem with massive swarm flight automation, direct mega-colony construction and multiplayer with a large number of agencies working together. We could go even further and imagine building a mini Dyson swarm. There's no reason to limit our imagination. Maybe in 10-15 years this is the direction the game will go in: megaprojects.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

I doubt it can revamp it significantly, as a simulator of an oil refinery and a metallurgical plant would be unplayable, let alone even a smallest city.

But in any case a biome category defines its terrain (texture, details, etc.)
Thus, changing a biome (and several more around) can change a yellow square of desert into a meadowland.

I feel like we've wandered into a minor tangent, so I'll say it straight, Spore's climate "simulation" is hardly a basis for terraforming in a game whose incorporated technologies at least need a theoretical basis in reality (see: metallic hydrogen). Spore is a game where you can do most things that take hours in KSP within a few clicks. You say realism isn't a big factor but it is considering what KSP is about, showing players roughly how these things work in real life. Playability matters but it doesn't trump realism when the entire point of KSP is that you have to do gravity turns and Hohmann transfers like in real life. "realism doesn't matter" is a very slippery slope anyway, where do you draw the line between not realistic enough and too realistic? Would you mind it if KSP's interplanetary transfers were one-click ordeals? Point is, Spore's climate "simulation" would not cut it if KSP 2 did terraforming. KSP's simplified ISRU has the excuse that it's not simplified to the point that you just point a tractor beam at a bit of land and scoop energy up like it might work in Spore if it had ISRU, you still have to land a refinery along with drills and processing units, and figure out how to get a decent amount of dV (and TWR depending on your goals) out of your vessel while lugging along all that equipment. It's hardly comparable to how things in Spore work.

If you want a proper reference for how planetary transformation would work, look at Universe Sandbox. It properly simulates water flow and temperature. It's quite a bit more complicated than a simple recolor depending on temp and atmospheric pressure. But then again, US2 doesn't have to generate a detailed physical surface from the planetary-scale maps it simulates.

[The Aziz]

7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

You're underestimating just how long it takes to terraform a planet (and perhaps Aziz  is too). Interstellar is quick and simple compared to this.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 11:46 AM, The Aziz said:

terraforming process is a hundreds if not thousands year long effort, depending on the body.

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[LHACK4142]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:16 AM, Vl3d said:

Gameplay style can be accommodated, timescale and size of undertaking wouldn't be a problem with massive swarm flight automation, direct mega-colony construction and multiplayer with a large number of agencies working together. We could go even further and imagine building a mini Dyson swarm. There's no reason to limit our imagination. Maybe in 10-15 years this is the direction the game will go in: megaprojects.

But don't you think that this terraforming game is... not really KSP?

[Vl3d]

4 minutes ago, LHACK4142 said:

But don't you think that this terraforming game is... not really KSP?

That's probably what people said about interstellar travel before someone made a mod for it. From what I gather most KSP players have not even visited other planets. So does that mean that KSP is just a game about flying on or around Kerbin? Why is it so difficult to imagine massive colonies that can start terraforming mega-projects (especially in multiplayer)? Why can't the planets atmosphere and biome be dynamic in the future?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Vl3d

[LHACK4142]

Just now, Vl3d said:

That's probably what people said about interstellar travel before someone made a mod for it. From what I gather most KSP players have not even visited other planets. So does that mean that KSP is just a game about flying on Kerbin? Why is it so difficult to imagine massive colonies that can start terraforming mega-projects (especially in multiplayer)? Why can't the planets atmosphere and biome be dynamic in the future?

Interstellar travel is a natural extension of interplanetary travel. It's really just the same thing, but bigger and more exciting. You could argue that terraforming is a natural extension of colonies, but there's hardly any overlap in terms of mechanics involved, things that need to be done, and general gameplay. It's just too much stuff, and too big, and too unrelated.

[Vl3d]

Just now, LHACK4142 said:

It's just too much stuff, and too big

Oh and interstellar travel is easy?

[LHACK4142]

Just now, Vl3d said:

Oh and interstellar travel is easy?

Definitely not. There's a slight misunderstanding- I meant that implementing terraforming is too much work (especially because terraforming is IMO kinda unrelated to KSP) as opposed to the actual act of terraforming. My bad- I'm not very clear sometimes.