Pthigrivi Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) Like a lot of us here I’ve been following development as close as I can since KSP2 was announced. I’ll just say out of the gate everything Ive heard about basic game systems and the intended end-goal vision for approachability and complexity has been 100% spot on and more clever than I’d hoped. I know this whole phase here with performance has been a hurdle but I dearly hope through the noise everyone involved knows how much all these hard-fought and arduously achieved changes like VAB subassemblies, acceleration under timewarp, the mission planner, procedural wings, fairing building, clouds, planet design, and a million other things are deeply appreciated by the vast majority of the fanbase. I know how many people just want to be able to play. As a mac owner I’ll have my own implementation adventure. I know accessibility and getting as many players involved is at the the top of the priority list. I can do nothing but encourage as we move into Science, Colonies, and Interstellar that the foundational vision of a truly great game meant to embody real physics and the hope of exploring and living off the land on other planets carries through. Don’t hedge. Take the time necessary. We’re all still incredibly excited for the best space game ever made. Edited February 21, 2023 by Pthigrivi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketBoy1641 Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) [snip] Most beneficial thing I have read in a week. [snip] Edited February 21, 2023 by Starhawk Redacted by moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheehaw Kerman Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Yup. Lots to do, but it’s going to be a fun trip, just like its predecessor, and the prospect of helping the next iteration of my favourite game outweighs the frustrations. Let’s roll up our sleeves and get to it. It’ll suck to be a whiner, sitting there on the sidelines contributing nothing and wallowing in misery, getting left behind, being the cringey reason people don’t identify as a gamer… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starhawk Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Some off-topic and personal remark content has been removed. Please stay in the SOI of topic. Thank you for your understanding, Forum Moderation Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow71 Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 I couldn't agree more with this. I am excited for the release of KSP2, and even knowing that there will be bugs and updates coming in the future won't deter me from having as much fun with it as possible. I've grown tired of the endless stream of negativity here over what people want KSP2 to be, or what they think it won't be; it's annoying and starting to wear on me to the point where I'm considering creating my own forum for this game that is strictly focused on the positive. Don't get me wrong; I know there will be issues. I am not wearing rose-colored glasses or thinking everything will be rainbows and unicorns out of the gate. But people talking as if they know everything already and are prepared for the end of their worlds is too much. IG, PD, TTi, developers near and far...do your thing. There is a whole host of us in the community that are waiting on the edge of our seats for what you are about to give us. Don't let the overly-vocal minority steer you in the wrong direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pthigrivi Posted February 21, 2023 Author Share Posted February 21, 2023 I even threw in some oxford commas, as a treat! 2 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said: I couldn't agree more with this. I am excited for the release of KSP2, and even knowing that there will be bugs and updates coming in the future won't deter me from having as much fun with it as possible. I've grown tired of the endless stream of negativity here over what people want KSP2 to be, or what they think it won't be; it's annoying and starting to wear on me to the point where I'm considering creating my own forum for this game that is strictly focused on the positive. Don't get me wrong; I know there will be issues. I am not wearing rose-colored glasses or thinking everything will be rainbows and unicorns out of the gate. But people talking as if they know everything already and are prepared for the end of their worlds is too much. IG, PD, TTi, developers near and far...do your thing. There is a whole host of us in the community that are waiting on the edge of our seats for what you are about to give us. Don't let the overly-vocal minority steer you in the wrong direction. Yeah Im not at all against criticism. I think everyone knows there are going to be some misses. Even when folks are frustrated and angry that this or that bug hasn't been resolved I don't think its productive for everyone on either side to make a big fight about it. Everyone has their line and their own preferences. I guess Im just saying I hope both we and the devs can be patient and methodical about it. And honestly even with some wacky behavior and gaps in the UI it really did seem like the folks at ESA all were having fun. Thats whats important in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 @Pthigriviwhat do you think about the trip planner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigFiz Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Absolutely agree. Constructive criticism and feedback is a good thing, (and knee-jerk mindless defense of everything isn't helpful, either), but it has kinda felt like things around here have been degenerating a bit as we get close to release, as people get antsier and overanalyze every little bit more and more to pass the remaining time. The negativity and hatefulness that this forum has felt largely free of has seemed far more widespread. I was too busy to post much in the system requirements thread but, holy cow, there is some vehement anger, and tin foil hat level stuff in there: people saying they hope the game fails and the studio closes because the system requirements were too high (for v0.1 of EA), or that this clearly means that they have been systematically lying to us and manipulating us all along, stuff like that. Heck, the continual recurrence of the thing about clouds, and stuff like atmosphere scattering and graphics in general, is reaching comedy levels. It's certainly reached a level where I feel like they could have pretty much stopped reading social media and forums for the last month or two, and not really missed anything productive. I really enjoy the thoughtful conversations and debates I've seen, and been a part of, around here as we have waited for KSP2, and this has been an...unwelcome change of pace. Even the repeated pushing back of the release date over the last couple years has always felt like a dev team that cared a lot being allowed to do "feature creep" in a good way, and being the time to do so properly. Despite the occasional naysayers and trolls, I have never worried that it wouldn't come out (and that sentiment never managed to take hold here, thankfully); obviously I can be wrong, but I've seen what development hell looks like, and it never looked and felt like that. Sure, the studio change was a cause for worry in that initial period where we didn't have much info and we were waiting to see how it all shook out, but it turned out fine, as far as can be seen, and may well have been for the better (we'll probably never have enough inside information to definitely say about that one, but it's most certainly a reasonable assertion). I am definitely hoping that it will return to that once EA gets solidly underway, and that this is just the years of build up in the pressure cooker of hype blowing out bursts of overheated emotional steam, because this is just yucky. I'm not a big fan of the whole "go touch grass" comment (I agree with the sentiment behind it, but I find most uses of it to be too condescending, and it feels like it's that way on purpose. I prefer that sentiment to be delivered in a less sarcastically laconic, and more useful and productive way), but there have been an increasing amount of threads and posts where, while I didn't say it, cuz there is no way it would actually improve the conversations, it certainly felt like an appropriate response. I'm not even saying emotional reactions are invalid. Be excited. Be disappointed when things are not as you hoped they would be. Raise your concerns, in a thoughtful manner, as they arise. Be critical, in a constructive way, when it is needed (and it will be needed plenty, I'm sure. Honestly, if they didn't think it did, it would probably not go through EA). Raise your voices, if valid concerns are being ignored, and if it is truly called for (but that should a higher bar then many seem to think, and is not the same as just angrily yelling). But also reserve some judgment for when it, y'know, actually comes out, and some more for the real v1.0 release. And remember that this is a game, you don't have to buy it (you can even say why you aren't, if it is done constructively) and those are all real human beings (who really seem to want to make this the best it can be, and really care about it) who are making it, and that this forum is a better place when we stay rational and, above all, civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pthigrivi Posted February 21, 2023 Author Share Posted February 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, Vl3d said: @Pthigriviwhat do you think about the trip planner? I think it's a start. I'll have to play around with it to know. A big thing in some of the reviews is they aren't yet showing TWR? Which seems super important. I'd also love ability to use a porkchop to set transfer alarms as an option but we'll see on friday where things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcwaffles2003 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, GigFiz said: Absolutely agree. Constructive criticism and feedback is a good thing, (and knee-jerk mindless defense of everything isn't helpful, either), but it has kinda felt like things around here have been degenerating a bit as we get close to release, as people get antsier and overanalyze every little bit more and more to pass the remaining time. The negativity and hatefulness that this forum has felt largely free of has seemed far more widespread. I was too busy to post much in the system requirements thread but, holy cow, there is some vehement anger, and tin foil hat level stuff in there: people saying they hope the game fails and the studio closes because the system requirements were too high (for v0.1 of EA), or that this clearly means that they have been systematically lying to us and manipulating us all along, stuff like that. Heck, the continual recurrence of the thing about clouds, and stuff like atmosphere scattering and graphics in general, is reaching comedy levels. It's certainly reached a level where I feel like they could have pretty much stopped reading social media and forums for the last month or two, and not really missed anything productive. Fallout 76, No Mans Sky, CP 2077, etc.... have left a lot of players cynical to the point of being jaded. It hurts, getting your hopes up that much only to have them demolished unreasonably before you. Its just a problem with modern game development and not only at the fault of devs or the mega corp distributors that own who they work for. Games today just have a lot going on and are really complicated and I don't think we as a community or the distributors for that matter are ready for how long game production takes to make finished products with genuinely innovative or expansive games, qualities KSP 2 shows it carries in spades. Edited February 22, 2023 by mcwaffles2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xheotris Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) Long time veteran here, I was nervous, but after seeing the live gameplay videos, now I'm pumped. The amount of doom and gloom on this forum is insane. The procedural wings alone are worth the price of admission. The size sorting in the VAB and the new nav-ball look absolutely incredible. The graphics look great. The new parts list seems awesome. More precise fairing controls makes me giddy, no more pixel fiddling. I'm buying it on Friday, and I'm excited. Edited February 22, 2023 by Xheotris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweeker Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 On 2/20/2023 at 11:41 PM, Pthigrivi said: Like a lot of us here I’ve been following development as close as I can since KSP2 was announced. I’ll just say out of the gate everything Ive heard about basic game systems and the intended end-goal vision for approachability and complexity has been 100% spot on and more clever than I’d hoped. I know this whole phase here with performance has been a hurdle but I dearly hope through the noise everyone involved knows how much all these hard-fought and arduously achieved changes like VAB subassemblies, acceleration under timewarp, the mission planner, procedural wings, fairing building, clouds, planet design, and a million other things are deeply appreciated by the vast majority of the fanbase. I know how many people just want to be able to play. As a mac owner I’ll have my own implementation adventure. I know accessibility and getting as many players involved is at the the top of the priority list. I can do nothing but encourage as we move into Science, Colonies, and Interstellar that the foundational vision of a truly great game meant to embody real physics and the hope of exploring and living off the land on other planets carries through. Don’t hedge. Take the time necessary. We’re all still incredibly excited for the best space game ever made. IDK, from where I sit they're dropping the ball. KSP 2 is a chance to make a clean break from some of the mistakes of KSP 1. Rebalancing the engine for example was always met with the argument of "we don't want to break people's existing craft". The would have been no such problem with a brand new game, they could quite easily have adjusted not only the engines, but all the rest of the parts. The chance to make these corrections will never be a good as it was right now. . Maybe in KSP 3...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcAbaddon Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 The engines may be rebalanced to some degree, I don't think we have seen all the stats yet? The NERV stats definitely changed, Rapier seems to be very similar in terms of ISP but the ground speed seemed very high in air breathing mode, so maybe there is a small thrust increase or at least a more convenient thrust-speed profile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcwaffles2003 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 17 hours ago, Tweeker said: IDK, from where I sit they're dropping the ball. KSP 2 is a chance to make a clean break from some of the mistakes of KSP 1. Rebalancing the engine for example was always met with the argument of "we don't want to break people's existing craft". The would have been no such problem with a brand new game, they could quite easily have adjusted not only the engines, but all the rest of the parts. The chance to make these corrections will never be a good as it was right now. . Maybe in KSP 3...... But... they did rebalance the engines... blue= ksp1 orange = ksp 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweeker Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said: But... they did rebalance the engines... blue= ksp1 orange = ksp 2 That not a re-balance, it's a slight tweak. Almost all of those are very close to each other, and many are right on top of each other such as the Twitch and Spark. Edited February 23, 2023 by Tweeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigFiz Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 On 2/21/2023 at 10:18 PM, Tweeker said: IDK, from where I sit they're dropping the ball. KSP 2 is a chance to make a clean break from some of the mistakes of KSP 1. Rebalancing the engine for example was always met with the argument of "we don't want to break people's existing craft". The would have been no such problem with a brand new game, they could quite easily have adjusted not only the engines, but all the rest of the parts. The chance to make these corrections will never be a good as it was right now. . Maybe in KSP 3...... While this is not an invalid argument, in this case I totally disagree. KSP is a wonderful game but there are tons of under the hood quirks, problems, and bugs, an inconsistent art style, and tons of underdeveloped gameplay elements and many clear potential gameplay systems that are absent entirely. Taking the core of it, improving and tuning it for performance and qol, and improving, adding, and building out gameplay systems and loops (not to mention interstellar travel, which is huge), which is, by all appearances, what they are doing, is pretty much exactly what KSP2 needed. And complaining about the engines and parts being the same (which, we will see once it's out. YMMV, I suppose) would be a much more compelling argument if they weren't adding a ton of engines and parts, and if we didn't have EA for them to take feedback and tune things. Plus, they fill valid needs, so even if they got rid of them, they would still need new ones that filled the same approximate roles, just with a different look, and then then the issue just rolls back around to tuning. On 2/21/2023 at 7:59 PM, mcwaffles2003 said: Fallout 76, No Mans Sky, CP 2077, etc.... have left a lot of players cynical to the point of being jaded. It hurts, getting your hopes up that much only to have them demolished unreasonably before you. Its just a problem with modern game development and not only at the fault of devs or the mega corp distributors that own who they work for. Games today just have a lot going on and are really complicated and I don't think we as a community or the distributors for that matter are ready for how long game production takes to make finished products with genuinely innovative or expansive games, qualities KSP 2 shows it carries in spades. For sure, and being reluctant about getting hopes up is totally valid and understandable. People are not obligated to be excited and optimistic. Be cautious, even a bit pessimistic if you must; be sure to refrain from boarding the hype train, totally fine. But saying the game is ruined, or awful or blah, blah blah, because you don't like one of the screen shots or something like that, is just as absurd as the kind of folk who will pretty much see a preview screen of a game they are hyped for and are pretty much ready to declare it game of the year. And that's a great point about people not really comprehending how game development works, how much time it takes, and how complicated it is; we have members with serious game dev knowledge and experience, and you see exactly that when they chime in and actually explain what is going on and why something is/looks the way it does (and often why people are freaking out over essentially nothing), and plenty of people will do everything they can to gloss over, or ignore it, so they can stay on their negative/angry train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowburn10 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 On 2/21/2023 at 8:59 PM, mcwaffles2003 said: Fallout 76, No Mans Sky, CP 2077, etc.... have left a lot of players cynical to the point of being jaded. It hurts, getting your hopes up that much only to have them demolished unreasonably before you. Its just a problem with modern game development and not only at the fault of devs or the mega corp distributors that own who they work for. Games today just have a lot going on and are really complicated and I don't think we as a community or the distributors for that matter are ready for how long game production takes to make finished products with genuinely innovative or expansive games, qualities KSP 2 shows it carries in spades. I can certainly understand having such cynicism in this day and age, but we at the very least know that KSP2 is coming to us purposely unfinished, unlike those other titles that either failed to deliver fully on their first releases or promised things that were way out of scope for them at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhay53 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 On 2/21/2023 at 10:59 PM, mcwaffles2003 said: Fallout 76, No Mans Sky, CP 2077, etc.... have left a lot of players cynical to the point of being jaded. It hurts, getting your hopes up that much only to have them demolished unreasonably before you. Its just a problem with modern game development and not only at the fault of devs or the mega corp distributors that own who they work for. Games today just have a lot going on and are really complicated and I don't think we as a community or the distributors for that matter are ready for how long game production takes to make finished products with genuinely innovative or expansive games, qualities KSP 2 shows it carries in spades. The comparison to No Mans Sky is an interesting one, and it's a path that I think we should be rooting for KSP2 to take. Yes, they overpromised and underdelivered at launch, but they stuck to their vision and added enormous value to the game with free updates, and there is no longer any real negativity around the game. It is well-respected as a game that supported its players and just quietly kept moving forward. Much more so than it's competitors in the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigFiz Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 minute ago, drhay53 said: The comparison to No Mans Sky is an interesting one, and it's a path that I think we should be rooting for KSP2 to take. Good call, I didn't totally clock that one. But yeah, No Man's Sky has, by this point, become arguably the greatest redemption story/turnaround in game development history. That level of persistence and amount of continued support and major, free content additions and updates...yeah, I'd be totally fine with that, too. 2 minutes ago, Jarin said: Given the publisher, I would not expect a NMS situation here. T2 wants return on investments for the next fiscal year. I mean, you are most likely right. It's more of "that would be awesome", not actually something I think will happen. And I don't need free major content updates. If we get what we were told we would get for V1.0 release, I'm totally good with getting paid dlc/expansions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarin Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 minute ago, drhay53 said: The comparison to No Mans Sky is an interesting one, and it's a path that I think we should be rooting for KSP2 to take. Yes, they overpromised and underdelivered at launch, but they stuck to their vision and added enormous value to the game with free updates, and there is no longer any real negativity around the game. It is well-respected as a game that supported its players and just quietly kept moving forward. Much more so than it's competitors in the genre. Given the publisher, I would not expect a NMS situation here. T2 wants return on investments for the next fiscal year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhay53 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Just now, Jarin said: Given the publisher, I would not expect a NMS situation here. T2 wants return on investments for the next fiscal year. I share your concern, but my response to it is to give them my money in the hopes that the vision laid out by the dev team is given the resources to reach that vision. I know a lot of people don't share my opinion on that, and think that buying early access is bad for gamers, but as a software developer myself, I accept that this model is not ever going away. As a consumer, I accept that sometimes I'll give a company my money for a vision I'm hoping they reach, but they fall short. In my opinion, they way for KSP2 to become what I want is for me to buy it, play it, stay positive, and give constructive feedback. For some games that I've played, that hasn't worked and I'll hold a grudge for a long time. I'll just summarize by saying that, as a software developer, I really don't understand the people who take a game they want to love, and just shower it with negativity all over the internet for not reaching their expectations. I'm not saying there's never a time to go there; after a lot of burned bridges on Elite Dangerous, I'm at that point myself. But we're nowhere near that point on KSP2, and the best thing we can do for the game at this point is support the devs and give them a chance to actualize the vision they've presented to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoSBoL Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Jarin said: Given the publisher, I would not expect a NMS situation here. T2 wants return on investments for the next fiscal year. T2 loves continuous cash flow, and with the KSP franchise they got that one in the bag. That's why they own Rockstar as well, they are definitely in for the long haul. KSP might be a niche, but is a game that kept selling, even up till today. T2 has every reason in continuous development of KSP2, they need the game to be as accessible as it can be, including lower required specifications so it's available to mid range machines, as much people need to be able to play and buy the game. Edited February 23, 2023 by LoSBoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweeker Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 The problem with the new engines they are adding is they haven't fixed the legacy engines from KSP1, and are just slotting new engines in around them. It's adding to the root problem, rather than seizing the golden opportunity to make these changes inbetween KSP1 and KSP2, We can see from the previews that many of the engine have similar stats to KSP 1, @mcwaffles2003 even made a chart showing the specs of KSP1 vs KSP2 engines. So it's not speculative to say that the engine stats are very similar to KSP 1. Honestly I'd have rather they rebalance all the legacy engines they're moving from KSP1 to KSP2 than to add new engines. 5 hours ago, GigFiz said: While this is not an invalid argument, in this case I totally disagree. KSP is a wonderful game but there are tons of under the hood quirks, problems, and bugs, an inconsistent art style, and tons of underdeveloped gameplay elements and many clear potential gameplay systems that are absent entirely. Taking the core of it, improving and tuning it for performance and qol, and improving, adding, and building out gameplay systems and loops (not to mention interstellar travel, which is huge), which is, by all appearances, what they are doing, is pretty much exactly what KSP2 needed. And complaining about the engines and parts being the same (which, we will see once it's out. YMMV, I suppose) would be a much more compelling argument if they weren't adding a ton of engines and parts, and if we didn't have EA for them to take feedback and tune things. Plus, they fill valid needs, so even if they got rid of them, they would still need new ones that filled the same approximate roles, just with a different look, and then then the issue just rolls back around to tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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