How difficult would it be to "revoice" or add "voice options" to the tutorials?

[FabioGustav]

There is good and bad here, yes the new voice might come off as a little childish to some and it might not to others, but at the end of the day the public opinion on it isn't something the devs are gonna have the scale of data to know. I say that's where we come in. We all most likely know people that are in that target demographic so why don't we put some data behind our arguments. If we can come up with some questions to narrow down the reactions new players have to this voice then we can see how well it works. I personally have a younger sister(12) with no current interest in rocketry and a younger brother(16) with some interest, I know that day one the first thing that I'm gonna do is sit them in front of the tutorial and ask them as many questions as possible and then send all that data to the devs however I can.

This community seems like its arguing over the smallest things because of how much we obviously love this game and want the best for it so how do we redirect that love into something that can help the devs make it something amazing?

We need 2 things:

1. We need a semi-standard list of things to ask(is the voice to childish,did you have trouble paying attention,etc)

2. We need an absolute mountain of test subjects, go grab your siblings, parents,friends,SO,the one guy at the back of starbucks, to all give their opinion and feedback to help make the barrier of entry as low as possible.

I defiantly don't have all those things so before friday we need suggestions from all of you as to what we should be asking to get the cleanest,spiffiest, nicest looking data out there. The devs have said this EA is for player feedback so let's give them some feedback!

 

[Pthigrivi]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Added this to the OP 

Note how she talks to the kid in a way that is direct and not sing-songy. 

 

So Im glad you framed it this way because there's been something about this that I have held back from because I think a lot of people would take it really personally and become defensive. So out of the gate I'll say Im not talking about you. However, there has been a lot of ire that's come up about this and its frequently framed as if we're talking about how these tutorials are too "kiddy" but no one ever talks about the cutesy cartoons, or the slapstick humor, or the bouncy soundtrack. The criticism almost always focuses exclusively on the voice, most often describing it as "grating", "sqeeky", "trill", etc. Alternative options for narrators are thrown out and those alternatives are almost always men. I'm not saying it's all of it, but there is a certain way both men and boys and even women and girls hear women's voices and its a factor in the way these voiceovers are being perceived. I want to be careful here to separate out implicit bias from outright intentional sexism because they are subtly different things. People can have these kinds of internal perceptions without knowing it or having malicious intent. It just kind of seeps into the dialog without folks realizing it.

Edit: and just for context Im really not making this as personal accusation toward anyone here. Culture is complicated and more than one thing can be happening at once. This was much more overt on the discord than it is here. 
 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[TheOtherDave]

Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to come off as really arguing about anything… My post was only meant to be interpreted in the “well, if we’re going to do this anyway, here’s my thoughts on who might be a good fit for it” sense. I wasn’t really intending to express an opinion on whether the VOs should be redone in the first place. My apologies for not making that clear.

[Tweeker]

49 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

So Im glad you framed it this way because there's been something about this that I have held back from because I think a lot of people would take it really personally and become defensive. So out of the gate I'll say Im not talking about you. However, there has been a lot of ire that's come up about this and its frequently framed as if we're talking about how these tutorials are too "kiddy" but no one ever talks about the cutesy cartoons, or the slapstick humor, or the bouncy soundtrack. The criticism almost always focuses exclusively on the voice, most often describing it as "grating", "sqeeky", "trill", etc. Alternative options for narrators are thrown out and those alternatives are almost always men. I'm not saying it's all of it, but there is a certain way both men and boys and even women and girls hear women's voices and its a factor in the way these voiceovers are being perceived. I want to be careful here to separate out implicit bias from outright intentional sexism because they are subtly different things. People can have these kinds of internal perceptions without knowing it or having malicious intent. It just kind of seeps into the dialog without folks realizing it.

Edit: and just for context Im really not making this as personal accusation toward anyone here. Culture is complicated and more than one thing can be happening at once. This was much more overt on the discord than it is here. 
 

The idea that people don't like the female voice is laughable.  No one here is saying that girls are icky, or the women should stay in the kitchen. Trying to frame the complaint in that way is extremely disingenuous. Someone in another thread said Scott Manley would not be a good choice to voice the tutorial because he's a white man. That is explicitly  biased thinking, his race and gender don't enter into it. His knowledge and bearing do. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Tweeker

[The Aziz]

55 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

but no one ever talks about the cutesy cartoons, or the slapstick humor, or the bouncy soundtrack.

That's the thing isn't it? The voice fits the visuals. So the problem for these teens wouldn't be the cheerful female voice but the fact that the game makes them watch "a cartoon". Too colorful for such grownups, right?

But then, this is a game where you solve engineering problems, so without an open mind, there's no way around it. And that open mind wouldn't mind (ha!) watching a funny, entertaining cartoonish video about rocket science.

And even if, nobody has taken down Scott's tutorials from youtube.

[whatsEJstandfor]

1 hour ago, Tweeker said:

No one here is saying that girls are icky, or the women should stay in the kitchen.

The reason they're implicit biases is exactly because they're biases that aren't explicit like this. We all have certain implicit biases and it's certainly worth digging deep in yourself and asking how those biases shape your opinions.

 

47 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

So the problem for these teens wouldn't be the cheerful female voice but the fact that the game makes them watch "a cartoon". Too colorful for such grownups, right?

I think this is getting at the crux of it. Take any series that was originally meant for kids and teens, but that has a significant adult following. Star Wars, superhero movies, whatever. I would contend that any audience member who says they don't like some aspect of these series for being "too childish" or whatever are actually just reacting to the reality that they are no longer the target audiences. They don't like being reminded that the thing that has meant so much to them is no longer explicitly made for them. It's just another form of gatekeeping. One brought on by, I think, the embarrassment of being an adult fan of something that's "too childish". The feeling of, "Well, I like this thing, and I'm a serious adult, but now this thing makes me feel like a child! But I'm a serious adult who likes serious things, so this thing must be wrong; not me!" I understand that knee-jerk reflex, but I would 1000% argue that that's a wrongheaded reaction, and that, by trying to view media through the eyes of people who are not like you, you'll get to find so much more joy in art.

I think part of really, truly growing up is understanding that it's OK for things to not be made for you. Because it means that the people for whom the thing is made get to enjoy it exactly as much as you once did. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by whatsEJstandfor

[royying]

It feels like a kids audiobook talking about space science. it is hard to stay focus for adult players

[TLTay]

I guess I should check out the discord? Lots of drama on there too?

Edited February 22, 2023 by TLTay

[tg626]

This whole thread and it's derivatives make me want to vomit.

[Yellowburn10]

Honestly the voice kind of reminds me of the voice of tails the fox. Take that how you will.

[darthgently]

5 hours ago, t_v said:

I was thinking, if the tutorial person is supposed to be an AI, adding a voice effect to indicate the digital nature of the speaker might place the voice-over on the other side of the uncanny valley, making it less relatable but also making us judge it less as a person's voice. No matter how annoying Mario's voice might be if it was in real life, we don't judge it the same way because it is separated from reality. Maybe KSP 2's tutorials can work the same way. 

I did read of a recent study where real human voices in teaching led to quite a bit better short and long term retention than high quality robotic voices.  Not sure how the very new deep fakes of voices would stack up though, but those aren't fully synthetic I suppose

Edited February 22, 2023 by darthgently

[Pthigrivi]

27 minutes ago, tg626 said:

This whole thread and it's derivatives make me want to vomit.

Why? 

1 hour ago, Tweeker said:

The idea that people don't like the female voice is laughable.  No one here is saying that girls are icky, or the women should stay in the kitchen. Trying to frame the complaint in that way is extremely disingenuous. Someone in another thread said Scott Manley would not be a good choice to voice the tutorial because he's a white man. That is explicitly  biased thinking, his race and gender don't enter into it. His knowledge and bearing do. 

 

 

Right, Im talking about something much more subtle than that. Brains are complicated, and I think its easy for many people to think of these facets of perception in black and white terms as if this or that subtle influence on thinking is inherently evil or virtuous. I don’t think that approach is very useful. I prefer introspection and trying as best I can to see what others see (or hear in this case). I think the tutorials are absolutely crucial to KSP2’s success and it’s important for everyone especially the devs to view responses in a nuanced way. 

[Turbo Ben]

11 hours ago, GoldForest said:

And I truly don't see what people hate about the voice actor. It's clearly autotuned voice to make it sound more kid friendly. I'd rather have a kid friendly voice than some adult talking in a monotone voice.

You don't need a voice like that to be kid friendly, but it will put many teens and adults off.  Experienced players that can't listen to it will do what Scott Manley did and quickly skip the tutorials. New players are likely to do the same, then hit the onboarding brick wall. They'll either take the time to go looking for help online, or they'll give up and get a refund.

Nobody is asking for an adult talking in a monotone voice. As an example, Neil Degrasse Tyson explains complex ideas in an entertaining way that anyone of any age can understand.

 

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Seriously, some people here.. "baby squeaky voice" anyone who says that should grow up first. And open their minds to less edgy adult way of thinking.

The "squeeky kid" description was used by Scott Manley in his review.

[tg626]

56 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Why

They all caterwaul about nonsense. If the narrator's voice is enough to put someone off they were already gone. I find its perfectly fine.

I feel like everyone complaining about it - perhaps mostly because of how they are complaining about it - really, really, REALLY needs a true crisis or tragedy in their life to get some [redacted] perspective.

Edited February 22, 2023 by tg626

[stephensmat]

I'd pay a few bucks for PAIGE's voice to be Cortana from Halo.

Maybe Miss Minutes from Loki.

[poopslayer78]

12 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Adults who are interested will roll their eyes and put up with it

This basically describes my reaction to the voice overs.  I'm actually having a hard time pinning down specifically what bothers me about the KSP2 tutorial voice overs to keep my criticism constructive.  I went through some other games with female voice overs during tutorials or instructions: Homeworld 1, Ixion, and Portal and tried to to a comparison:

1. All voice overs were extremely calm
2. The human character (Homeworld) mostly spoke the way people do in real life.  The AI characters (Ixion/Portal) had slightly more exotic rhythms, pronunciations, and word emphasis but never went overboard.
3. All speakers were adult characters

Perhaps "over acting" is what happened here?  My advise would be to tone things down and speak as if you were giving a lesson to teenagers or college students in a lecture hall.  I agree with @darthgently that speaking this way won't alienate young viewers and may actually hold their attention better.  The same voice actress could be used and do very well.

--- A few minutes later ---

OK so I just re-watched all the available tutorial footage: Missing The Ground and SWDennis Tutorial and the Training Center and honestly they're fine.  I guess after the initial shock I just needed 24 hours to get used to them and now I'm wondering why I got so worked up over this.

All this said, I don't think redoing the voice overs is a good use of time and resources.  KSP2 honestly has quite a few urgent fires to put out and complex features to add making it hard to justify ripping out something finished.

[TLTay]

They made the choice they made and it's too late for do-overs. Not everyone thinks the manner of speaking was the best way to appeal to the widest audience. There's no need to to throw around talk of bias of any kind unless it's overt. People are reacting to a manner of speaking, not a gender.

I'm pretty sure the the voice actor is Paige from one of the feature videos. Voice and name both fit. Nobody was commenting "ew, gross voice" anywhere for that video.

It's not the person the people are reacting to. It's the method of delivery, and more specifically, for age groups very recently removed from media that used similar method of speaking.

I politely ask people to refrain from passively accusing others of unwitting sexism over a simple disagreement of delivery style.

[aNERVASman]

scott manley said he would like to do the voice over

[Tweeker]

5 hours ago, poopslayer78 said:

This basically describes my reaction to the voice overs.  I'm actually having a hard time pinning down specifically what bothers me about the KSP2 tutorial voice overs to keep my criticism constructive.  I went through some other games with female voice overs during tutorials or instructions: Homeworld 1, Ixion, and Portal and tried to to a comparison:

1. All voice overs were extremely calm
2. The human character (Homeworld) mostly spoke the way people do in real life.  The AI characters (Ixion/Portal) had slightly more exotic rhythms, pronunciations, and word emphasis but never went overboard.
3. All speakers were adult characters

Perhaps "over acting" is what happened here?  My advise would be to tone things down and speak as if you were giving a lesson to teenagers or college students in a lecture hall.  I agree with @darthgently that speaking this way won't alienate young viewers and may actually hold their attention better.  The same voice actress could be used and do very well.

--- A few minutes later ---

OK so I just re-watched all the available tutorial footage: Missing The Ground and SWDennis Tutorial and the Training Center and honestly they're fine.  I guess after the initial shock I just needed 24 hours to get used to them and now I'm wondering why I got so worked up over this.

All this said, I don't think redoing the voice overs is a good use of time and resources.  KSP2 honestly has quite a few urgent fires to put out and complex features to add making it hard to justify ripping out something finished.

It's not overacting so much as the material. Certainly the tone  could be better, but some of the lines pop out as particularly bad.

"Look at all those rocket engines!" 

That line would be hard for any voice actor to pull off in a way that doesn't make the viewer feel like they're getting the 3rd grade version. 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Tweeker

[Guest]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

So the problem for these teens wouldn't be the cheerful female voice but the fact that the game makes them watch "a cartoon". Too colorful for such grownups, right?

I think this too, the cartoon is going to filter many people before they even hear the voice.

Which is a pity, and the weirdest cultural phenomenon of our time, it's fun to look back at how they trained soldiers with funny cartoons back in WWII and see that, nowadays, Disney is remaking their old cartoons as movies because most nostalgic adults are too embarrassed to go to the movie theater to see a cartoon.

As for me, I'm a fan of Kurzgesagt, so I love the tutorial animation style.

[The Aziz]

5 hours ago, stephensmat said:

I'd pay a few bucks for PAIGE's voice to be Cortana from Halo.

Maybe Miss Minutes from Loki.

I'd die laughing if I heard Tara Strong, A.K.A. frikkin Twilight Sparkle teaching me about rocket science

[K^2]

19 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Strongly suggest recording a more mature sounding actor ‐ and treating older kids like young adults rather than precocious day care kiddos.

While I can see the argument made that this is how it will come off, and why some kids might not like this, I really don't think that was the intention. The text of the tutorials is completely fine - it simplifies things, but otherwise seems to be fine as an intro for middle-schoolers or even high-schoolers who know noting about rocketry. In contrast, Kerbals have always had high, cartoonish voices. If anything, the tutorial voice is toned down dramatically compared to that, while still matching the overall tone of the game. I think that's all they were going for, something suitably Kerbalish that still works to convey the information.

It'd be an interesting to see a focus group done to see how the kids actually respond to this, but I'm skeptical that just the voice would cause a problem if the tutorials work otherwise. I can be wrong on this, though, since my teaching experience is with college aged kids.

There's also a question of whether any sort of tutorial will be helpful to older teens, or if they'll just skip them anyways and go to Youtube if things aren't working. This might only need to work well for the 8-12 cohort. Again, I don't want to diminish the concern, but I don't think simply replacing the voice without running some focus tests first is the thing to do.

[Tweeker]

32 minutes ago, K^2 said:

While I can see the argument made that this is how it will come off, and why some kids might not like this, I really don't think that was the intention. The text of the tutorials is completely fine - it simplifies things, but otherwise seems to be fine as an intro for middle-schoolers or even high-schoolers who know noting about rocketry. In contrast, Kerbals have always had high, cartoonish voices. If anything, the tutorial voice is toned down dramatically compared to that, while still matching the overall tone of the game. I think that's all they were going for, something suitably Kerbalish that still works to convey the information.

It'd be an interesting to see a focus group done to see how the kids actually respond to this, but I'm skeptical that just the voice would cause a problem if the tutorials work otherwise. I can be wrong on this, though, since my teaching experience is with college aged kids.

There's also a question of whether any sort of tutorial will be helpful to older teens, or if they'll just skip them anyways and go to Youtube if things aren't working. This might only need to work well for the 8-12 cohort. Again, I don't want to diminish the concern, but I don't think simply replacing the voice without running some focus tests first is the thing to do.

The text of the tutorial is not fine, 

""Look at all those rocket engines!" 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Tweeker

[The Aziz]

I see nothing wrong here.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

17 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Folks on the discord went nuts about this when the first tutorial was shown. I find the voice cheerful and informative so its hard for me to hear what other people are hearing. I do have to wonder how much implicit bias is a factor here.

I was disappointed the first time I heard it, but on a rewatch the disappointment kinda faded.  The voice is not a big deal.  I would have preferred Werner Von Kerman in German-accents Kerblish subtitled in English or Deepfaked Carl Sagan Voice From Beyond The Grave, but p.a.i.g.e. having a high pitched voice is not an issue for me.