Please, give the community KSP1's source code

[Great Liao]

150 supporters in a month or so. It is a great acheivement, especially with the adversity that we have been facing. But if we really want the KSP¹ owner to listen to us, we need to spread the word. Any ideas that could help to draw people to this thread?

I was thinking of twitter and youtube videos about KSP¹ and KSP2 dying and that we have to attempt to save KSP¹. This would attract the casual viewer of KSP youtube in general as they may search for "KSP2 is dying" or "KSP is dying" in order to see the problem, and anyone watching these videos is a potential supporter.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Great Liao
Adding an idea

[Bej Kerman]

13 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

But if we really want the KSP¹ owner to listen to us [etc]

...which is a corporation and not your mate from down the street who'll politely oblige to any polite request.

14 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

I was thinking of twitter and youtube videos about KSP¹ and KSP2 dying [etc]

This is how clickbait started. Please don't.

[Great Liao]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

...which is a corporation and not your mate from down the street who'll politely oblige to any polite request.

1 hour ago, Great Liao said:

Face it, they're dying anyway. They need us.

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

This is how clickbait started. Please don't.

But it's not clickbait. period. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Great Liao
Someone back me up here pls

[Bej Kerman]

20 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

Face it, they're dying anyway. They need us.

Take Two's not dying though? Its fate certainly doesn't rest on KSP 1/2 if anything.

21 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

This is how clickbait started. Please don't.

But it's not clickbait. period. 

Yes it is. exclamation mark. The community is crap though and that's not hyperbole, if that's any good at catching attention.

[Great Liao]

56 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

 The community is crap though and that's not hyperbole, if that's any good at catching attention.

Then why are you here? If you hate the community so much you woudn't be here, would you? you'd just be inhaling your copium and playing KSP2 all day while pretending it's a decent game. Do you not care about what happened to KSP? Just go play SimpleRockets 2 if you don't like this game.

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, Great Liao said:

But if we really want the KSP¹ owner to listen to us, we need to spread the word. Any ideas that could help to draw people to this thread?

You can't bully people into caring - hitting everybody with the idea will just make people fed up about the subject.

IMHO, the best line of action is to talk about only when pertinent - "Look, I know of a Closed Source that had this endemic problem, and they managed to get it tight after open sourcing it" is nice when you find someone complaining about a problem peskying them and that it's never fixed (as long you are telling the true - never do fanfic on Open Source, you will not make friends on both sides of the equation!).

Open Source is a tool. A way to solve problems. It's not the solution for all of the problem in the World, however - we always need to consider that perhaps it may not be the right tool for this job and, so, we should always propose the use of the Open Source at the same time being open to alternative ideas (like the Shared Source model I mentioned some pages ago).

Of course I would prefer OSI, but the objective is not promoting OSI, the objective is to fix problems, being OSI the best way I'm aware of.

 

5 hours ago, Great Liao said:

I was thinking of twitter and youtube videos about KSP¹ and KSP2 dying and that we have to attempt to save KSP¹. This would attract the casual viewer of KSP youtube in general as they may search for "KSP2 is dying" or "KSP is dying" in order to see the problem, and anyone watching these videos is a potential supporter.

Videos about how KSP¹ was fabulous in the past, and how it can be great again  (could not help myself hehehe) with the help of the Open Source is good, as long the content is interesting and it doesn't look like someone trying to evangelize you about something. It gets boring fast, and - again - ends up getting people fed-up and, so, counter-productive.

About KSP2, IMHO just don't touch the subject. KSP¹ and Open Source are strong enough ideas by themselves, you don't need to belittle something else in comparison to make them look good. Just don't touch the subject - remember, "We may be wrong" - they manage to deliver KSP2 in a couple years, and it will make you look bad.

On the other hand, if KSP2 fails anyway, what's the gain on repeating it again and again? There's no use on beating dead horses.

 

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

...which is a corporation and not your mate from down the street who'll politely oblige to any polite request.

Exactly, The thing must be good (i.e. profitable) for both sides, otherwise they would just not do it. I wouldn't, this is still Capitalism.

 

3 hours ago, Great Liao said:

Face it, they're dying anyway. They need us.

Oukey, let's consider for a moment that they are really dying. Exactly by being in the imminence of death, they won't need us anymore - they need us when they are healthy and good, because it's our money that bring them such healthiness. If they are dying, we are irrelevant - because what they would be seeking instead is someone to buy the bankruptcy estate, and this includes the Source Code.

Opening the Source will only make sense if:

1. They will be "alive" to reap the benefits
2. There're people around still willing to spend some money on the thing
3. There's no better way to fix the mess we are now

A huge amount of problems that plagued KSP¹ were due ego and arrogance. Will we improve the situation by repeating their mistakes?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Lisias
I need some sleep. :)

[dok_377]

9 hours ago, Great Liao said:

150 supporters in a month or so.

The post was made in February, not a month ago. Maybe the vote was edited in a month ago, correct me if I'm wrong. But the last edit was in May,  which is still way longer than a month. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by dok_377

[zer0Kerbal]

19 hours ago, Lisias said:

Make KSP Great Again! Just needs an orange toupee !  

[TwoCalories]

"Flow, the source must." -Jedi Grandmaster Yoda

[AtomicTech]

On 10/20/2023 at 7:30 PM, Bej Kerman said:

...which is a corporation and not your mate from down the street who'll politely oblige to any polite request.

This is how clickbait started. Please don't.

 

On 10/20/2023 at 9:14 PM, Bej Kerman said:

Take Two's not dying though? Its fate certainly doesn't rest on KSP 1/2 if anything.

Yes it is. exclamation mark. The community is crap though and that's not hyperbole, if that's any good at catching attention.

This isn't adding anything worthwhile to the conversation.

@Great Liao is right.

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

On 10/21/2023 at 3:14 AM, Bej Kerman said:

Take Two's not dying though? Its fate certainly doesn't rest on KSP 1/2 if anything.

Yes it is. exclamation mark. The community is crap though and that's not hyperbole, if that's any good at catching attention.

This isn't adding anything worthwhile to the conversation.

@Great Liao is right.

"This isn't adding anything worthwhile to the conversation"

Then perhaps explain how I'm wrong, instead of siding with (in a manner that does not add to the convo and merely serves as a verbal like) someone who has trouble speaking without sprinkling insults in 

On 10/21/2023 at 4:12 AM, Great Liao said:

Do you not care about what happened to KSP?

Fiddledidee, guess Squad isn't perfect after all

[AtomicTech]

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

"This isn't adding anything worthwhile to the conversation"

Then perhaps explain how I'm wrong, instead of siding with (in a manner that does not add to the convo and merely serves as a verbal like) someone who has trouble speaking without sprinkling insults in 

Fiddledidee, guess Squad isn't perfect after all

Bej, the purpose of this thread is to create a plan and argument in favor of Take 2, Intercept, and Squad allowing the community to continue the work started by HarvesteR so many years ago. All you've been doing by showing up is repeating the same arguments over and over again against this notion. This isn't the "Please, don't give the community KSP 1's source code." If this was, then it'd be welcomed. It isn't. If you have anything to contribute to getting the KSP source code then, please share. Otherwise, you're not adding anything worthwhile. 

Also thanks @Great Liao for your support 

[Bej Kerman]

8 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Bej, the purpose of this thread is to create a plan and argument in favor of Take 2, Intercept, and Squad allowing the community to continue the work started by HarvesteR so many years ago.

Which we all know they're going to dismiss. Again, they're companies, not your mates.

9 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

This isn't the "Please, don't give the community KSP 1's source code."

Never said that

8 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Otherwise, you're not adding anything worthwhile. 

It's a valid standpoint

[Nazalassa]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which we all know they're going to dismiss. Again, they're companies, not your mates.

Still, it's worth trying. Maybe someone'll hear us.

[AtomicTech]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which we all know they're going to dismiss. Again, they're companies, not your mates.

That's what we're trying to do; we know it's an uphill battle and it'll be a while but we have to try.

Yeah, what @Nazalassa said

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

5 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which we all know they're going to dismiss. Again, they're companies, not your mates.

That's what we're trying to do; we know it's an uphill battle and it'll be a while but we have to try.

I'd say time is better spent on battles that aren't impossible to win

[AtomicTech]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'd say time is better spent on battles that aren't impossible to win

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

This is something worthwhile to me. I want to see the day when we release KSP 1.13 that sees plenty of bugs get fixed and perhaps even some more mods integrated into stock. It'd be remembered as a cornerstone of the source code movement that started from humble beginnings in an obsure forum and an example of the power of the fan base/community.

@Lisias and @WhatALovelyNick, I think we need to combine all of the points and make a definitive manifesto of what we want, why we want it, what we'll do,  how we'll do it, and what we expect in return.

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

This is something worthwhile to me. I want to see the day when we release KSP 1.13 that sees plenty of bugs get fixed and perhaps even some more mods integrated into stock. It'd be remembered as a cornerstone of the source code movement that started from humble beginnings in an obsure forum and an example of the power of the fan base/community.

If only

[Nazalassa]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

If only

Well, only the future can tell itself. We beings of the present can only make suppositions, and work probabilities (assuming we have a  somewhat correct model).

[AtomicTech]

4 minutes ago, Nazalassa said:

Well, only the future can tell itself. We beings of the present can only make suppositions, and work probabilities (assuming we have a  somewhat correct model).

No one got anywhere without dreams

[Royalswissarmyknife]

3 hours ago, AtomicTech said:

No one got anywhere without dreams

Without them we would probably be in the bronze age still.

[Lisias]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:02 AM, Bej Kerman said:

I'd say time is better spent on battles that aren't impossible to win

The problem most people fail to realise is that they already had lost this one.

There're people on the wild applying shading practices to access the source code and earning money from it. There're people even getting jobs by accessing the source code in EULA's and Forum's rules violation.

This battle is over, the Genie is out of the bottle. Anyone is able to make some dimes at their expense now - the precedent has been set.

What we are proposing is that they formalise the current status quo in a way in which they can profit from it too - before things get yet more out of control and beyound hope of being salvaged.

Are you aware that KSP's add'ons are already being ported to the competition? People are already moving on, lefting them behind. After using their source code to leverage their add'ons, that it's now feeding the competition.

Had they started to considering our proposition 6 months ago, chances are that they would be in a way better position - what's exactly what I had predicted it would happen.

Unless they are intentionally skimming the franchise, I think it's time to start to think seriously on a change of strategy. Whatever they are doing now, it's not working for the game.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Lisias
Entertaining grammas made slightly less entertaining.

[Lisias]

11 hours ago, Nazalassa said:

Well, only the future can tell itself. We beings of the present can only make suppositions, and work probabilities (assuming we have a  somewhat correct model).

Time is the best teacher and, also, the harsher - as I had said before by the way. KSP add'on are being ported to the competition; known youtubers replaced KSP to it on their videos; people are making money and getting hired accessing their source code in EULA's and Forum Rule's violation.

We have a saying here on Brazil : Água mole em pedra dura, tanto bate até que fura.

(by some reason, Forum is refusing to embed this video!)

Erosion. We are witnessing the franchise's erosion.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Lisias
Forum is behaving weirdly

[Great Liao]

3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Time is the best teacher and, also, the harsher - as I had said before by the way. KSP add'on are being ported to the competition; known youtubers replaced KSP to it on their videos; people are making money and getting hired accessing their source code in EULA's and Forum Rule's violation.

 

I haven't seen examples other than Parallax and Shadowzone with this, can you please explain how people are pirating the KSP¹ Source code and what the Devs can do about it? and while Juno can defeat KSP2, it hasn't reached KSP¹ levels in my opinion, though that may be just because I dislike procedural parts. 

5 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Erosion. We are witnessing the franchise's erosion.

 

A bold claim. Evidence? I'm not against the source code movement (I think your ideas are great for keeping KSP as a franchise alive) but I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

[Lisias]

30 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

I haven't seen examples other than Parallax and Shadowzone with this, can you please explain how people are pirating the KSP¹ Source code and what the Devs can do about it?

It's not my place to fingerpoint people, so I will not give you any concrete examples. But… There's a thing called Reverse Engineering that it's a way to analyse the binary code in order to reproduce the source code. It's also known as decompiling.

This practice is expressly not allowed by Forum Rules (see legal boundaries), as well the EULA. Now, this is not exactly illegal - but it's subject to legal complications in some cases, as well being illegal for sure in a few countries.

That said, it's blatantly clear that a lot of authors around here are relying on such practices. No ill intended, I'm absolutely sure, but this had set a precedent where a few authors decided to monetize the results of such practices (what I think may cause legal implications even on USA).

What the Devs can do about is to talk to their legal counsellors. The pertinent legislation is tricky enough to push me away from commenting about.

 

30 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

and while Juno can defeat KSP2, it hasn't reached KSP¹ levels in my opinion, though that may be just because I dislike procedural parts. 

Baby steps. They already won a round, let's see what happens. Some youtubers are probing using Juno instead of KSP, and this is already another round won.

 

30 minutes ago, Great Liao said:

A bold claim. Evidence? I'm not against the source code movement (I think your ideas are great for keeping KSP as a franchise alive) but I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

KSP¹ online players on Steam Charts are half from what it was early this year. SpaceDock total downloads ditto. CurseForge too.

All the metrics I have strongly suggest that, right now, there're half (or even less) players on KSP¹ than we had earlier this year, eroding a user base that was growing strongly since at least March, 2022.

Please note that such metrics are unable to give you the absolute number of players - we can only evaluate the numbers qualitatively, not quantitatively - i.e., I know for sure that we have half or less users than early this year, but I don't have the slightest idea about exactly how many they are or were.

 

— — POST EDIT — — 

Not all Reverse Engineering techniques are considered shady. One of such techniques is called Clean Room, and this one is legal on every place I had looked at. And it's what I do on KSP-Recall, if you go to its github you will see inumeorus issues full of experimentations trying to figure out how things behaved that way.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Lisias
tyop! Surprised?