NO CAREER MODE or Money planned for game

[MarcAbaddon]

11 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Are people seriously only just learning KSP 1's half-baked excuse for gameplay isn't being done 1:1 in KSP 2, and is being replaced with adventure mode?

That sounds a bit condescending. A lot of people aren't following every dev interview that closely and there not being any money wasn't discussed as much as things like having colonies or there being interstellar travel. 

Anyway, we still know very little about adventure mode, so let's hope it will be less half-baked.

But it's worth noticing that while it was mentioned, it does not even appear in the roadmap, nor have data miners found much on it - unlike colonies, interstellar or multiplayer where they did find plenty.  So it doesn't seem to be in focus for the foreseeable future.

[Chilkoot]

4 hours ago, MarcAbaddon said:

But it's worth noticing that while it was mentioned, it does not even appear in the roadmap, nor have data miners found much on it - unlike colonies, interstellar or multiplayer where they did find plenty.  So it doesn't seem to be in focus for the foreseeable future.

Bit of a misnomer perhaps - the two announced modes are Science and Exploration.  Both are shown on the roadmap, though the descriptions don't really denote them as game modes.

[MarcAbaddon]

11 minutes ago, Chilkoot said:

Bit of a misnomer perhaps - the two announced modes are Science and Exploration.  Both are shown on the roadmap, though the descriptions don't really denote them as game modes.

Exploration is not shown on the roadmap either:
https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-program-2

Unless you count 'explore with friends' which seems more of a reference to doing things together (it's under multiplayer).

Resource gathering is mentioned on the roadmap though.

EDIT: I mean it is mentioned as a heading, but only in reference to having a 3rd solar system and resource gathering, not really as a full game mode. But I guess that's when it will come.

Edited February 28, 2023 by MarcAbaddon

[Chilkoot]

16 minutes ago, MarcAbaddon said:

Exploration is not shown on the roadmap either:
https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-program-2

Unless you count 'explore with friends' which seems more of a reference to doing things together (it's under multiplayer).

Resource gathering is mentioned on the roadmap though.

EDIT: I mean it is mentioned as a heading, but only in reference to having a 3rd solar system and resource gathering, not really as a full game mode. But I guess that's when it will come.

[Uuky]

A science mode with the needed resources to gather is the equivalent of a career mode.

Devs can even add a "story mode".

Who knows. 

 

[Chilkoot]

54 minutes ago, Uuky said:

A science mode with the needed resources to gather is the equivalent of a career mode.

Devs can even add a "story mode".

Who knows. 

 

All we really know about the two "revealed" modes came from two separate interviews with Nate in November.  Science mode won't involve "gathering" science the way we did in KSP 1, but rather tech tree unlocks will be based on some sort of milestone events as you get out and do things.  Exploration mode progress will involve building colonies and gathering resources.  Nate was intentionally a bit cryptic describing them, and they may still change before release.

[Uuky]

Thanks for correcting me @Chilkoot.  I admit I didn't follow much what developers said. 

 

[yipyop]

I agree that not having money in the career mod will disappoint many people. But playing with the difficulty to recover the science in the way of Kerbalism with other process in addition can be interesting. I think the difficulty is the real problem because from my point of view if you launch a 4000T rocket in 3-4 launches you always have what you want (colony ship, base, station).
The money adds a difficulty to plan but if the research becomes very complex (a bit like in real life) it can also be interesting.
The resources, I don't see how it would make the game "difficult or fun".

[Chilkoot]

3 hours ago, Uuky said:

Thanks for correcting me @Chilkoot.  I admit I didn't follow much what developers said. 

 

Just adding what I've come across in my own travels.  I'd love to see a story mode, too.  Just because it isn't announced or revealed doesn't mean it's completely off the table.  It may be a DLC sometime down the line...

[Manul]

18 hours ago, Uuky said:

A science mode with the needed resources to gather is the equivalent of a career mode.

NO! It's not about money, it's about contracts. The most challenging or crazy missions begin with accepting something like this: "Elect class E asteroid out of the solar system", "rescue Misfortune Kerman from a solar orbit" (the orbit appears to be RETROGRADE), "perform atmospheric analysis of Jool in three different locations ", "return component XXX from the surface of Eve" (the component XXX appeared to be huuuge and massive, so I need to bring a crane first).  Replacing all this with mining only will turn the game into another boring mining simulator (there are too lot of them)

Edited March 1, 2023 by Manul

[MarcAbaddon]

9 minutes ago, Manul said:

NO! It's not about money, it's about contracts. The most challenging or crazy missions begin with accepting something like this: "Elect class E asteroid out of the solar system", "rescue Misfortune Kerman from a solar orbit" (the orbit appears to be RETROGRADE), "perform atmospheric analysis of Jool in three different locations ", "return component XXX from the surface of Eve" (the component XXX appeared to be huuuge and massive, so I need to bring a crane first).  Replacing all this with mining only will turn the game into another boring mining simulator (there are too lot of them)

I agree - at least for asteroids there could be a resource incentive to go there. But rescue and tourism contracts could be fun too and it is hard to fit that into a resource based system in a good manner. 

[jnbspace]

Money being missing from the game shouldn't be a big problem because money is just a procy for resources. So having the game based more on resources or unlocking technology is a better approach but with one caveat.

In KSP1 in career mode I'm sure we have all played with two styles of mission going on simultaneously. One being the real missions to gather science and tech. The second being a seatdy succession of tourist trips to pay for it. The tourist trips are irrelevant to the game progression and contribute nothing in science in themselves. On the other hand they do pay for the rest of the missions. So money is usually a proxy but not always. I'm quite happy to see no career mode or money as long as there is a similar progression with constraints. If that is solely science progression then it lacks some of the realism that a simulation should have.

[Periple]

I'm hoping science mode will provide us with challenges that are more interesting, more varied, and make more sense than KSP1's contracts. That should carry us over to the point where we're setting up bases and colonies and emergent gameplay goals take over.

[Kerbart]

23 hours ago, MarcAbaddon said:

Exploration is not shown on the roadmap either

Nor is sandbox and yet we have sandbox mode. I wouldn't read too much in what the road map is saying regarding game modes, it's simply not shown.

[AtomicTech]

On 2/27/2023 at 4:25 PM, RoverDude said:

Did a bunch of art for KSP2, not code or design this go around.  

 

Been neck deep building a new indie game with @DoktorKrogg for over a year now.  The fun part being that we get to build the game we always wanted to play.  The not fun part  being that it's not done yet - though we're pretty stoked about where it is (and there's a lot to be said for being 100% greenfield), and having a blast! 

Where can we find this nifty indie game?

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, AtomicTech said:

Where can we find this nifty indie game?

We do a few sneak peeks on the USI Discord

[Profugo Barbatus]

On 2/27/2023 at 3:25 PM, RoverDude said:

Been neck deep building a new indie game with @DoktorKrogg for over a year now.  The fun part being that we get to build the game we always wanted to play.  The not fun part  being that it's not done yet - though we're pretty stoked about where it is (and there's a lot to be said for being 100% greenfield), and having a blast! 

A feeling I know all too well - Making games is super fun. Finishing games is miserable lol. But gotta push through to go from 'Fun, wonky prototype' to 'hey its a game'. 

[AtomicTech]

41 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

We do a few sneak peeks on the USI Discord

Well, I've gotta join

[Mitokandria]

Oh. Well that's sad news. I'm a big fan of career mode in KSP1 as is. I thought the resource gathering would be an alternative to using money. The only complaint i had was science progression not granting funds which was handled by a mod.

 

I will certainly try this resource management aspect, but i hope I'll see a traditional career mode mod later.

[Profugo Barbatus]

6 hours ago, Mitokandria said:

Oh. Well that's sad news. I'm a big fan of career mode in KSP1 as is. I thought the resource gathering would be an alternative to using money. The only complaint i had was science progression not granting funds which was handled by a mod.

 

I will certainly try this resource management aspect, but i hope I'll see a traditional career mode mod later.

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinterpretation going around about what has been said, so I will try and make it clear for you and others

Career Mode - Funds-based vehicle construction restriction, with Science Gathering required for tech unlocks. This mode is NOT coming back.

Sandbox Mode - Unlimited construction, all parts. This mode is already in and will not be going away to our knowledge.

Science Mode (Name unclear at this time) - Unlimited construction, Science Gathering required for Tech unlocks. Science Gathering may not resemble the previous instrument heavy, biome specific approach, but not much detail is known. This mode is road mapped and coming in the nearer future. It is likely but unclear as to whether a science-only mode will remain in the game into 1.0.

Exploration Mode (Name unclear at this time) - Resource-based vehicle construction restriction, with Science Gathering required for tech unlocks. This mode is the Career Mode successor. The funds cost for a vessel is being replaced with a resource cost for a vessel. Rather than running contracts for cash, players will run missions (Potentially still contract-system guided) to acquire and increase or transport their resource income/supply/stock (Resource model and whether resources are 'consumed' or treated as a checklist is unclear at this time) to pay the costs for ship assembly. This is road mapped and coming in the farther future.

So yes, Career mode is gone, money is gone, and it has a feature equivalent successor that fills the same game space. The exact mechanical details are unclear. There is no plan to create a cash analog at this time.

Now, while modding is no pure substitute for game mechanics, there is no obvious barrier to modders implementing cash as a resource just like steel and uranium, with supply mechanics (Taxes on colonies? Dunno, up to the modder) to ensure its available and expandable. If you really want to be playing a pure-cash KSP or want finances as part of your construction considerations, its very likely to be a modded option. This is highly speculative, as we have no idea what's open, exposed, easily edited, etc., but its extremely unlikely the games hardcoded to only handle certain resources.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Profugo Barbatus

[Pthigrivi]

18 minutes ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinterpretation going around about what has been said, so I will try and make it clear for you and others

Career Mode - Funds-based vehicle construction restriction, with Science Gathering required for tech unlocks. This mode is NOT coming back.

Sandbox Mode - Unlimited construction, all parts. This mode is already in and will not be going away to our knowledge.

Science Mode (Name unclear at this time) - Unlimited construction, Science Gathering required for Tech unlocks. Science Gathering may not resemble the previous instrument heavy, biome specific approach, but not much detail is known. This mode is road mapped and coming in the nearer future. It is likely but unclear as to whether a science-only mode will remain in the game into 1.0.

Exploration Mode (Name unclear at this time) - Resource-based vehicle construction restriction, with Science Gathering required for tech unlocks. This mode is the Career Mode successor. The funds cost for a vessel is being replaced with a resource cost for a vessel. Rather than running contracts for cash, players will run missions (Potentially still contract-system guided) to acquire and increase or transport their resource income/supply/stock (Resource model and whether resources are 'consumed' or treated as a checklist is unclear at this time) to pay the costs for ship assembly. This is road mapped and coming in the farther future.

So yes, Career mode is gone, money is gone, and it has a feature equivalent successor that fills the same game space. The exact mechanical details are unclear. There is no plan to create a cash analog at this time.

So I think the names "Science mode" and "Exploration mode" are confirmed. As far as the missions go I really like what Nate says in recent interviews, that there will be missions, but they're trying to curate these missions in a way that they tie into other game systems outside of the mission's explicit rewards. He used resources as an example, (say Mission A): Place a satellite in a polar orbit and scan Ike for resources; leading to Mission B): We've discovered rich Uranium ore deposits. Harvest and process X Uranium." The mission might have its own reward like unlocking a new tech, but you also now have a uranium operation which could feed into colony growth around Duna. But not all of the missions need to relate to resources. There could be missions related to initial exploration, gathering science, discovering and visiting anomalies, reaching higher populations at colonies, etc. The main point being that the procedural missions in KSP1 were obviously random and rather than feeding back into fundamental game mechanics and creating real strategy and rewarding players for doing things they already want to do they became kind of a laundry list of side-quests that never turned into anything substantial. 

[Mitokandria]

3 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinterpretation going around about what has been said, so I will try and make it clear for you and others

[snip]

No misunderstanding on my part. Just not what I thought it was going to be based on information I'd read prior to this thread. As for my hesitancy chalk it up to "preferring something I know vs something I don't know."

 

Like I said though I'm willing to bet someone will inevitably mod in a traditional/legacy career mode. Money is just another type of resource after all and for most games modifying names of resources or adding in a new resource is usually well within the realm of possibilities. It might be a bit hacky depending on how hardcoded resource definitions are going to be.

[Picard2]

I'll be honest my first reaction was a little negative. I always play career, never sandbox or pure science. Much prefer the sense of progress of starting from nothing, doing missions, gathering science... But yeah the pure randomness of the stock contracts is just not exciting. And I really don't think I've ever run up against money as an actual constraint - it's always just so abundant as to be basically worthless.

This, on the other hand, sounds like it could be - if done right - absolutely amazing.

14 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

Exploration Mode (Name unclear at this time) - Resource-based vehicle construction restriction, with Science Gathering required for tech unlocks. This mode is the Career Mode successor. The funds cost for a vessel is being replaced with a resource cost for a vessel. Rather than running contracts for cash, players will run missions (Potentially still contract-system guided) to acquire and increase or transport their resource income/supply/stock (Resource model and whether resources are 'consumed' or treated as a checklist is unclear at this time) to pay the costs for ship assembly. This is road mapped and coming in the farther future.

Running actual missions with real value beyond some abstracted 'funds'? So good. Want to launch that nuclear powered engine? Now you have an actual reason to scan those planets, to mine that uranium, to set up your logistics stations. So much potential for exciting and engaging gameplay here - potential way beyond 'funds'. If done well.

I wonder if there's scope here for some sort of procedurality in the resource distribution? I mean, something not just like 'this spot on Mun always has 5,000 units of metal' - so every playthrough you always go to the same locations (and once you know where resources are / search online, you never bother to scan). But like 'these various spots have a certain percentage of units metal in this range' - so you might know that Mun always has these resources, but always need to scan to figure out where to build your base.

[Profugo Barbatus]

14 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

So I think the names "Science mode" and "Exploration mode" are confirmed.

I think so as well, but the whole goal here was to be ironclad about mitigating the infinite quibbling and panic over terminology people seem to get when they're blazing the hype or fear trains. If I definitively say it will be Exploration mode, and then it comes out as "Kardashev Mode" People will panic and freak out that they're not getting the thing that they were looking forward to - Even if its just a rename after a classic way of measuring a growing civilization in Sci-Fi. Whereas if I'm relatively clear that it may not be called that, people may not immediately jump ship in despair

14 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

As far as the missions go I really like what Nate says in recent interviews, that there will be missions, but they're trying to curate these missions in a way that they tie into other game systems outside of the mission's explicit rewards.

Yes, and it has me excited too, but once again I err on "probably' just by virtue of the above. Once folks get it in their head that something 'is' happening, they are very very very displeased when its not, just look at the EA launch

37 minutes ago, Picard2 said:

I wonder if there's scope here for some sort of procedurality in the resource distribution? I mean, something not just like 'this spot on Mun always has 5,000 units of metal' - so every playthrough you always go to the same locations (and once you know where resources are / search online, you never bother to scan). But like 'these various spots have a certain percentage of units metal in this range' - so you might know that Mun always has these resources, but always need to scan to figure out where to build your base.

As far as I'm aware, this is how resource distribution worked in the first game, with relatively randomized ore distribution. Modded expansions to that system did much the same, with biases for worlds to have certain materials in certain biomes, but within a given range. Its unlikely that they would materially regress in this area, considering the relative ease of development to expand it to have randomness.

[Picard2]

31 minutes ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

As far as I'm aware, this is how resource distribution worked in the first game, with relatively randomized ore distribution. Modded expansions to that system did much the same, with biases for worlds to have certain materials in certain biomes, but within a given range. Its unlikely that they would materially regress in this area, considering the relative ease of development to expand it to have randomness.

Thanks - was not aware of this.