Mohopeful

[MechBFP]

9 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

and doesn't effect the development at IG in the slightest.

This is incorrect. It might influence it for better or worse, but it absolutely has an effect. The devs don’t life in a bubble and they will see what mods exist. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by MechBFP

[Superfluous J]

7 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

Again, it's what I want out of my experience of KSP2 and doesn't effect the development at IG in the slightest... It is what it is.

Every single API call - and there will be hundreds of them - need to be written, tested, fixed, retested, approved, and rolled out.

Then some of them will need to be fixed and retested again.

It's an undertaking of similar size to adding multiplayer. It could have its own spot on the roadmap.

[herbal space program]

3 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

As a regular player of the game myself, my personal top ten maps very closely to what I've seen in bug reports, here on the forums, on reddit, and on Steam. The degree to which I personally wish a bug would get fixed actually has very little impact on the speed with which it is remedied. We have a priority list, and we take on those bugs in priority order. We have excellent people working on those issues. I can see with my own eyes that they're as eager to see those bugs go down as I am, so there's not much more that I or anybody else can do but to let them do their work in peace.

OK, so why don't you start by telling us what your priority list is, so we can at least know we are all on the same page?  What you said here about progress on bugs vs. other stuff may be true, and I do believe your team is trying to fix things ASAP,  but Invoking your "top ten" bugs and comparing them to other people's lists of complaints  is really making light of the problem IMO.  It makes it sound  like we are talking about a bunch of minor annoyances here,  over which people might differ on the priority, when the problem is in fact a relative handful of totally in-your-face, completely game-breaking issues that stop any experienced KSP1 player in their tracks the minute they try to do anything more ambitious than orbiting Kerbin once.  Everybody knows what those bugs are, and no amount of spin or shiny objects on display is going to make them  less of an elephant in the room.  There may be good reasons why they are so hard to fix and why you even released the game in this unplayable state after all this time, but I haven't seen those communicated clearly anywhere.  Leveling with us and doing so might do a lot to quell suspicions that not everything here is above board.

[Redneck]

1 hour ago, Superfluous J said:

Opening the game to modding - at least in the way you mean here - is a huge undertaking.

Dude! But that was one of the main reasons ksp was so successful back in the day! How dare you sir mock the hayday of ksp 1 thats just….just unkerbalish :-) i wanna get that ksp 1 magic back! Those were great times

Edited May 22, 2023 by Redneck

[Davidian1024]

1 minute ago, herbal space program said:

...when the problem is in fact a relative handful of totally in-your-face, completely game-breaking issues that stop any experienced KSP1 player in their tracks the minute they try to do anything more ambitious than orbiting Kerbin once.

I think this is overstated.  I was able to reach nearly every body in the Kerbol system before patch 1 released.

And I don't think I'm that good, tbh.

[Alexoff]

4 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

Some have wondered why we are showing the progress we've made on features peripheral to the larger mission of "fixing the game." Eg. why are we working on grid fins when we still have trajectory bugs? That's actually a really apt question, as we had a major breakthrough on wandering apoapses last week (and it probably deserves its own post in the future). The issue, as many have pointed out, is that we have a lot of people on this team with different skill sets, working in parallel on a lot of different systems. Our artists and part designers have their own schedules and milestones, and that work continues to take place while other performance or stability-facing work goes on elsewhere. I like to be able to show off what those people are working on during my Friday posts - it's visual, it's fun, and I'm actually quite excited about grid fins! They're cool, and the people who are building them are excited about them, too. So I'm going to share that work even if there is other ongoing work that's taking longer to complete.

Well, why not let the people responsible for the technical side of the game speak? It seems to me that the constant advertising of several people making models for the game is just wickedness. It is unlikely that any of us slept and saw the fins in the game, we expect something completely different. If you want to brag about something - show something related to colonies, we haven't seen anything with them for over a year. Or something about science. Why did a specialist in writing texts come to the topic to make excuses? I remember at a bad job the boss suddenly added important purchases for an important project to me and for some reason suddenly sent me to talk with the customer, despite the fact that neither one nor the other was on the list of my duties and I was not really brought up to date. As a result, I received a lot of criticism for nothing. It's kind of a similar story.

[adsii1970]

52 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

They're not 'broken' now though, are they? Quite honestly, the only reason I stayed with KSP for so many hours/years is because of the modding scene... The community have expanded the game to such a beautiful degree. 

I started playing KSP (the original) in 0.22 and every update up through 1.10 always meant that mods would be broken. And wow, you should have seen the forums then! For those of us around long enough to remember those days, there were all kinds of posts and threads that were...

How can it be? How can each update to this game kill every single mod I have downloaded? The development team is stupid and do not know what they are doing! This game is broken! Every update should not break my 4,000 installed mods...

I wasn't a moderator back in those early days, but I certainly was a forum member and may have posted a few of those comments. And I can also tell you there's a huge mod graveyard within this forum of mod makers who walked away because of it. Some of my favorite mods disappeared between .24 and .90. Some of more of them disappeared between .90 and 1.12. Right now, I have two different games going in the original KSP - one in 1.3 and another in 1.12. The 1.3.0 has mods in it that no longer work in KSP past that version because the mod's creator left and no one adopted the mod afterwards. Modders volunteer their time and their talents to bring us their creativity - and we never need to take their efforts lightly.

I really do not want to see that pattern repeated in KSP2. I'd rather not have to mod it at all. But if I do, I'd rather have a more stable modding base than to have modders become frustrated and walk away from it as they did with the original game.

That's what I mean.

[Alexoff]

1 minute ago, adsii1970 said:

I started playing KSP (the original) in 0.22 and every update up through 1.10 always meant that mods would be broken. And wow, you should have seen the forums then! For those of us around long enough to remember those days, there were all kinds of posts and threads that were...

I can't agree. Kopernicus always broke on any patch, but this was a deliberate act of the developer. By the way, with my indignation, I once contributed to the change of one tired developer to another. But most of the mods could live quite a long time. For example, the camera mod worked for years, although no one updated it. Mehjeb and many other mods continued to work fine after the patches. Some big updates did break most of the mods, but it didn't happen too often, once a year or two.

[adsii1970]

2 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

I can't agree. Kopernicus always broke on any patch, but this was a deliberate act of the developer.

BDA also broke with nearly every patch. And there were some of the other mods that changed aerodynamics from the souposphere that KSP had in the beginning. Infernal Robotics also required updating, and I believe that with major updates (not the minor bug fixes), KAS/KIS also required updating frequently.

Yes, I exaggerated the 4,000 mods. At most, I always ran with about 120.

5 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Some big updates did break most of the mods, but it didn't happen too often, once a year or two.

And this could still take hours to update the game if you didn't have the various GitHub repositories bookmarked. Yeah, those days way before CKAN... (I still prefer manually updating mods).

[Alexoff]

Just now, adsii1970 said:

BDA also broke with nearly every patch. And there were some of the other mods that changed aerodynamics from the souposphere that KSP had in the beginning. Infernal Robotics also required updating, and I believe that with major updates (not the minor bug fixes), KAS/KIS also required updating frequently.

I'm much more modest, I had all sorts of alarms, new science, a few part packs, graphical improvements, a mechjeb and, in general, thats all. Other than Kopernicus, there wasn't much that bothered me.

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, Alexoff said:

I'm much more modest, I had all sorts of alarms, new science, a few part packs, graphical improvements, a mechjeb and, in general, thats all. Other than Kopernicus, there wasn't much that bothered me.

Mechjeb needed to be updated with each major game update because of game physics. I remember one time I didn't bother to update it (somewhere around 0.90) and boy, was I surprised! Not only did it not dock my shuttle with the station, but I left my computer to grab a soda to come back and find Mechjeb flew the shuttle through the station! There were parts everywhere!

To this day, in either my 1.3 or my 1.12 game, I never leave Mechjeb unattended!

[Vanamonde]

24 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Well, why not let the people responsible for the technical side of the game speak? 

For one thing, because then people would complain that they were wasting their time talking on the forum instead of fixing bugs and making new features. 

[Nicrose]

4 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

We - meaning, our team and the game's fans - are going to be living together with this game for many years. As aggravating as the current situation may be, and as much as I wish we could compress time so that the waiting was less, all I can do for now is to keep playing the game and reporting on what I experience. The game will continue to get better, and in the meantime I will choose to interpret the passionate posts here on the forums as an expression of the same passion that I feel for the game. 

This has been the most down to earth and truthful statement from the devs so far and I really appreciate it. I’m glad you’re aware the game is not in an acceptable state and that regardless of the content, each post here is expressing their love for the game in different ways. This is much more along the communication I expected and hope to have more of this in the future. 

[Alexoff]

55 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

For one thing, because then people would complain that they were wasting their time talking on the forum instead of fixing bugs and making new features. 

On the other hand, it was possible to show how some nasty bug was defeated. But if the developers of KSP2 are afraid of swearing from fans for the low quality of the game, then I don’t even know what to say. It was possible, for example, not to show new fins in the editor. Or mountains illuminated on the night side of the planet. That also caused some resentment, didn't it?

53 minutes ago, Nicrose said:

This has been the most down to earth and truthful statement from the devs so far and I really appreciate it. I’m glad you’re aware the game is not in an acceptable state and that regardless of the content, each post here is expressing their love for the game in different ways. This is much more along the communication I expected and hope to have more of this in the future.

Has anything been said differently before?

[Nicrose]

33 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Has anything been said differently before?

I feel like it, yes. 

[Alexoff]

1 minute ago, Nicrose said:

I feel like it, yes. 

Oh my...

[moeggz]

I want it to be clear that I am among those who are critical because I love KSP so much and want it to succeed. As is nearly everyone who takes the time to give feedback. Those who just don’t like KSP probably aren’t active in the community here or elsewhere. I was sold on the concept of expanding KSP with colonies and interstellar with meaningful gameplay loops with resources. As much as I love KSP, I’m the type of gamer who likes a little more direction in my sandbox games. Not actual quests or story, just a more clear progression. And career mode in KSP1 was always lacking to me. The new ideas for KSP2 along with better visuals and less need for mods really sold me.

So I would like all at Intercept Games (and moderators y’all are appreciated) to understand that very little negative feedback comes from trolls. Most of it is passionate fans so I appreciate that acknowledgment by Nate. I feel like however the reason for the negativity seems to somehow keep being missed.

I paid $50 for an EA game that was years delayed. I was told it was to help the community be involved in the balancing of the different systems. From all of the trailers and communication pre EA launch I was sold a complete game at launch, and then with the EA launch it was marketed as a barebones sandbox but with a solid foundation.

The game currently is broken and overpriced. I and a lot of others feel like my excitement for a sequel was abused to get a quick buck out of me. The game is not what was promised, and the speed of progress in early access is not what was promised. (Remember the “short while after launch” we would have to play the game without reentry heating?)

I had fun with the bugs on release. I appreciated the first two patches. My irritation went from “I was robbed” to “I’m early but not wrong and happy to help support this game’s development.” So I feel largely good will was being restored. Slowing down the patch release cycle at this time could not have been worse timed. The good will the first two patches made was quickly eroded. 
 

It seems the strategy has gone to “under promise over deliver” recently. While many wish this was always the strategy, switching now is going to come with negativity. No one will give a clear answer on when to expect anything, not just science but even things that we were told were just around the corner like reentry heating. Until progress is made on the roadmap and bugs become rare there will be negative feedback. 
 

So simply we are negative because what we bought does not match the description we were given for years. EA in a sequel that was supposed to be a regular launch is going to be more critical than the first game. Communicating more or less will not lessen or increase the negative feedback because it is not the reason for the negative feedback. Some in the community are negative because the game is not what we thought we were buying. The way to win us back over is by fixing and expanding the games features down the roadmap.

Maybe more time between updates will help development a lot. And if it does the “underpromise overdeliver” will start winning over the communities goodwill. But that won’t be earned until substantial progress is seen after patches are released.

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

It was possible, for example, not to show new fins in the editor. Or mountains illuminated on the night side of the planet. That also caused some resentment, didn't it?

It seems that whatever is shown here, gets some resentment. Ignore stuff out of your control, and carry on. Good move. 

[herbal space program]

3 hours ago, Davidian1024 said:

I think this is overstated.  I was able to reach nearly every body in the Kerbol system before patch 1 released.

And I don't think I'm that good, tbh.

OK, it may have been slightly overstated, but not by much. "Able to reach nearly every body in the Kerbolar system"  is really not a very high bar, as that amounts to nothing more than being able to set up a couple of orbital transfers without using enough live physics time for all your orbital parameters to get corrupted. For my part, I tried a simple Munar orbit rendezvous landing mission, which is something I've done at least 100 times in KSP1 and could basically do in my sleep, and in the process I encountered 1) Such rapid corruption of my Munar orbital parameters that I had to use up all of my transfer stage's fuel just to stay in bleepin' orbit, 2) Crazy phantom forces on both lander and orbiter upon activating physics, such that my previously stationary lander was break dancing upside down repeatedly after I reloaded it using F9,  and my orbiter spinning crazily as it went on a collision course with the ground based on no actual impulse, 3) My lander vanishing into the ground whenever I tried to switch back and forth between it and my orbiter to set up my orbital rendezvous,  4) My fairings breaking my ship every single time I tried to jettison them, to the point where I just gave up on them entirely, and 5) One thing after another just ceasing to work properly as I did repeated saves and reloads of craft that were in flight. This is really not OK for a game that has supposedly been in development for 4 years now with a pre-existing code base that did not behave nearly so badly. YMMV, but as somebody who played KSP1 since 0.2x, I am really quite disappointed.

Edited May 23, 2023 by herbal space program
spelling

[herbal space program]

53 minutes ago, moeggz said:

I paid $50 for an EA game that was years delayed. I was told it was to help the community be involved in the balancing of the different systems. From all of the trailers and communication pre EA launch I was sold a complete game at launch, and then with the EA launch it was marketed as a barebones sandbox but with a solid foundation.

If I thought that is what I had actually gotten, then I wouldn't feel  as disappointed as I do now.  I can totally wait for various features to be implemented, but at least the basic game engine mechanics should have been pretty solid when they made their first release, and they weren't. I would really like some kind of explanation for that.

[Kerbart]

8 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

The June update timing does not mean "June 30." It means that I cannot yet give you a precise estimate about which day in June will see the update. When I do know that precise date, I will share it.

Months have gone by since some pretty severe unresolved bugs were reported. An update on "when the next patch will be rolled out" was promised "next week" and that was two weeks ago. Isn't it telling that the community pretty much automatically assumes that "June" means June 30? We've gotten very used to vague timelines being meant as "at the very end of..." — if we're lucky.

Given that the patches tend to get rolled out on Friday COB so any wailing will hit closed office doors for an entire weekend, I'm going to assume it'll be around June 23. Because rolling it out early June will be like the Spanish Inquisition: nobody is going to expect that.

8 hours ago, Nate Simpson said:

A few people are worried that because I haven't yet posted an itemized list of bugs to be knocked out in the next update, that the update will not contain many bug fixes. As with earlier pre-update posts, I will provide more detail about what's being fixed when we have confirmation from QA that the upgrades hold up to rigorous testing. As much as I love being the bearer of good news, I am trying also to avoid the frustration that's caused when we declare something fixed and it turns out not to be. I will err on the side of conservatism and withhold the goodies until they are confirmed good.

And again, managing expectations, expectations that were set in a negative way. If it's not mentioned, it's not fixed. "We know what bugs have priority and we're working hard on it," and we're rewarded with a video showing that solar lens flare now works correctly in edge cases. Nate, take note: this was not interpreted as "with all bigger issues fixed, we're now down to fixing minor optical stuff." Because by now that's not the expectation we have. Instead, it's interpreted as "we could have spend time on REAL bugs but we opted to pour all our resources into this"

I'm still in the "KSP2 will be great camp," but I'm not the only on that side of the fence who's been getting quite salty lately. If it doesn't worry you that staunch defenders of the product are getting cynical,  it should.  There's lots of talk showing new features and announcing another month before the next patch comes out (with by now very low expectations it will address playability issues). Interest in the game will continue to drop with every patch adding new features without addressing the pain points. There's no reason to believe the 1.0 launch will be less incomplete than what KSP 1.0 was, so even if we ever get to see that (2 years from now? Three?) it will take another 2 or 3 years before it's in a state where most of us expected it to be right now. I still hope we will see that moment, but by now it looks like I get to play KSP2 when I retire and not earlier.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Kerbart

[MechBFP]

24 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

I would really like some kind of explanation for that.

It’s pretty obvious to me that the game was stuck in technical development hell for years.  Its likely the main reason why the game was forced to be released. Now they have no choice but to make it work. 

[Redneck]

3 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

It’s pretty obvious to me that the game was stuck in technical development hell for years.  Its likely the main reason why the game was forced to be released. Now they have no choice but to make it work. 

yeah now that they have our money

[MechBFP]

1 minute ago, Redneck said:

yeah now that they have our money

Welcome to capitalism, enjoy your stay. 

[herbal space program]

29 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

It’s pretty obvious to me that the game was stuck in technical development hell for years.  Its likely the main reason why the game was forced to be released. Now they have no choice but to make it work. 

If that's really the explanation, they should just level with us about it. They might even get help from this exceptional modder community!

30 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

I'm still in the "KSP2 will be great camp," but I'm not the only on that side of the fence who's been getting quite salty lately. If it doesn't worry you that staunch defenders of the product are getting cynical,  it should.  There's lots of talk showing new features and announcing another month before the next patch comes out (with by now very low expectations it will address playability issues). Interest in the game will continue to drop with every patch adding new features without addressing the pain points.

Couldn't agree more with this.  It could still end up being the totally great game we imagined, but they are making no friends among either noobs or experienced KSP1 players by letting these awful bugs fester.

Edited May 23, 2023 by herbal space program