Missing Titanic tourist sub

[Hotel26]

According to WSJ:

A top secret military acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines first heard what the U.S. Navy suspected was the Titan submersible implosion hours after the submersible began its voyage, officials involved in the search said.

The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after the submersible’s disappearance Sunday, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the Coast Guard commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, tater said:

it happen around the right time—but they didn't know the time I guess, cause detectors don't know what time it is.

Iirc, SOSUS is to detect subs before they surface and launch SLBM, and launch the anti-subs in advance, i.e. they should know everything in real time at exact place.

Edited June 23, 2023 by kerbiloid

[SunlitZelkova]

3 hours ago, tater said:

Everything after that was a useless show since they had no way to rescue anyone anyway—but at least they got to torture to the families with fruitless hope (mixed with the horror of thinking their loved ones were living for days in terror)!

You know though, writing them off without a search and rescue effort- thus finding no debris- could easily invite claims of abandonment and still cause belief they could still be alive, but were simply missed. I think with no S&R we would still have tortured the families and the claims they suffered would have even more reality.

[Scotius]

3 hours ago, tater said:

Everything after that was a useless show since they had no way to rescue anyone anyway—but at least they got to torture to the families with fruitless hope (mixed with the horror of thinking their loved ones were living for days in terror)!

There were many cases of survivors being rescued hours or even days after a catastrophe that should be immediately fatal.

As long as there's a chance, rescuers will and should try to reach the victims. In this case, services suspected the sub was a total loss, but they did not know for sure. So they kept deploying ROV's and looking.

This is genetic. Altruism is a paradigm baked in our DNA by millions of years of evolution as social species. If we will ever lose it, on that day we will stop being humans.

[steve9728]

It reminds me of the skyscrapers in some of our domestic cities in China, which have attracted a number of imitators after being climbed unprotected to the top by some 'explorers' a few years ago - and then there have been several accidents. The property management of one building put up a banner next to the door to the roof. I forget the original text, but it said something like "You have every right to think your rotten life is not worth talking about, but it's really hard for us to shovel your body from the ground. "

Hope those rich guys can do more extremely basic research before they risk their life. The Law of Physics is equal to everyone.

[tater]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Iirc, SOSUS is to detect subs before they surface and launch SLBM, and launch the anti-subs in advance, i.e. they should know everything in real time at exact place.

I was being sarcastic.

3 hours ago, Scotius said:

There were many cases of survivors being rescued hours or even days after a catastrophe that should be immediately fatal.

Submarines don't implode at normal submarine depth (hundreds of FEET (deeper?)) and result in survivors, much less at >3000 METERS depth. It's not survivable.

4 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

You know though, writing them off without a search and rescue effort- thus finding no debris- could easily invite claims of abandonment and still cause belief they could still be alive, but were simply missed. I think with no S&R we would still have tortured the families and the claims they suffered would have even more reality.

It's stunning to me they didn't tell the truth. I guess the last few years have trained them that noble-minded lies are fine. They should have presented facts. At the first press conf with US officials, they should have said that SOSUS detected what sounded like an explosion/implosion in the vicinity of the wreck (or even just direction if they want to obscure capability), at whatever the timestamp was. Then say that given the timing of this in relation to the loss of contact their presumption is that the vessel was lost with all hands.

They could certainly follow up saying they would continue to render assistance in surface search and support to the private vessels at the site.

[Nuke]

4 hours ago, Scotius said:

There were many cases of survivors being rescued hours or even days after a catastrophe that should be immediately fatal.

As long as there's a chance, rescuers will and should try to reach the victims. In this case, services suspected the sub was a total loss, but they did not know for sure. So they kept deploying ROV's and looking.

This is genetic. Altruism is a paradigm baked in our DNA by millions of years of evolution as social species. If we will ever lose it, on that day we will stop being humans.

i think its more the illusion of altruism. sometimes its real, but thats rare. sometimes it aligns with self interest, which i believe is the case here (perhaps expecting a payout either directly or through litigation after the fact). but people do a lot of things that seem good on the surface, but apply any scrutiny you find that its either grossly ineffective, completely unnecessary, or downright counterproductive.  

[lajoswinkler]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:54 PM, Kerbart said:

Suffocation is not a bad way to go. You just get tired, go to sleep and never wake up.

Our bodies don't get stressed out over a lack of O₂. They get stressed out over elevated CO₂ levels in the blood. Keep that low, and a dropping lack of oxygen in your blood just makes you pass out. That's why carbon monoxide is so dangerous; you won't feel a thing. I understand they had enough CO₂ scrubbers on board.

If you mean the psychological stress about impending death, yeah probably.

Not really, no. With loss of oxygen, even if carbon dioxide is removed from air, it won't be a pleasant loss of consciousness, and neither will actual death be painless. There is no sedation, so confusion and fear will mix with euphoria. After losing consciousness, cardiac arrest will cause a buildup of respiration waste products and pain - there is simply no general anaesthesia. Carbon monoxide poisoning is also painful.

Natural deaths are painful. This is why all euthanasias simply require general anaesthetics, to numb the nerves and central nervous system.

I'd rather be exposed to a huge pressure pulse in a fragment of a millisecond than die by any so called "peaceful death". Those are peaceful for observers only.

 

On 6/22/2023 at 8:27 PM, Kerbart said:

Looking at videos of railroad tank cars imploding, one second everything is fine, then next thing the whole thing looks like a crumpled beer can. And that's only less than 1 atmospheric pressure. It seems to me that any decompression would be a very violent and sudden event, and with large parts of the hull (from what I understand) being carbon fiber, it wouldn't fold like metal but shatter. Which in turn would explain a debris field (assuming the debris field is indeed the missing submersible). The bigger parts would be outside tubing and parts.

Yes, loss of structural integrity would be many times faster than those railroad tanks. It's hardly comparable. It's so fast we couldn't see it move.

Indeed, Titan had a carbon fiber body covered with a titanium hull resting on it. Bad design. You are right, there would be shattering involved.

 

23 hours ago, Nuke said:

james cameron was just talking about it on the news. i missed half of it. 

carbon fiber works up to a point and then fails catastrophically. with the number of rotor blades ive destroyed trying to fly rc helis, i know. 

When I found out the submarine had a carbon fiber structure covered with a titanium sheet I couldn't believe how the hell anyone ever agreed to ride in it.

Edited June 23, 2023 by lajoswinkler

[kerbiloid]

Iirc, the suffocation pain is caused by the carbonic acid, which is produced from carbon dioxide and water.

So, everything raising CO2 should result into pain.

8 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

When I found out the submarine had a carbon fiber structure covered with a titanium sheet I couldn't believe how the hell anyone ever agreed to ride in it.

Quote

When I found out the flying machine had a wooden plank structure covered with textile I couldn't believe how the hell anyone ever agreed to ride in it.

 

P.S.
The nerve impulse speed is 50..100 m/s.

0.01 s = 50 .. 100 cm.

Brain size ~ 15 cm. 

[Jacke]

18 hours ago, tater said:

Wall Street Journal reporting that the USN detected the implosion in real time on Sunday.

So all the "rescue" was nonsense from the start if that is in fact true.

The SOSUS system is very good at locating and identifying sources that put out multiple signals and that have previously been detected.  While it would have seemed like a vessel implosion, it would still be a single signal.  From what I heard, the USN informed the search agency, Boston  US Coast Guard, which it was up to to release that information.  They did use the information to narrow the search.  It still required finding the wreck to be certain.

Just from the publicly released information on Monday, those with a strong submarine knowledge like Sub Brief knew the submersible was almost certainly lost.

[tater]

6 minutes ago, Jacke said:

The SOSUS system is very good at locating and identifying sources that put out multiple signals and that have previously been detected.  While it would have seemed like a vessel implosion, it would still be a single signal.  From what I heard, the USN informed the search agency, Boston  US Coast Guard, which it was up to to release that information.  They did use the information to narrow the search.  It still required finding the wreck to be certain.

Just from the publicly released information on Monday, those with a strong submarine knowledge like Sub Brief knew the submersible was almost certainly lost.

My beef is them not making that information public. Implosion was always the likely scenario, losing the pinger, and comms (apparently 2 separate devices) was pretty serious (comms apparently being a problem with the vessel before). Given the various ways they had to dump ballast, the only other possibility was entanglement (the vehicle seems really poorly designed with that as a primary concern, look at all the loose crap all over it).

The obvious "search" at that point is to send an ROV to the Titanic wreck—since that's what you'd get entangled with. The trouble is the ROV showed up... yesterday. Any serious rescue op should have prioritized that I think—all that minus the one critical piece of data, SOSUS detecting a bang. The other super import piece here—while circumstantial—would be the timestamp. If the noise detection, consistent with implosion, and vaguely in the right area/direction happened to be around the time both comms and pinger were lost, you'd assume it almost certainly imploded.

Anyway, they should have told people what information they had, hiding that information is a recipe for generating more distrust in institutions. Present facts, and with appropriate conditional language. "We detected a noise in the direction of the wreck site, at time-X, consistent with an implosion. It was not certainly an implosion, but given the location and timing, we believe the DSV likely imploded on Sunday."

They could then say they would continue looking until they have better information or the time limit runs out out of an abundance of caution.

I'm sick of people we all pay the salaries of looking directly into the camera and lying to us. Give it to us straight, or say nothing at all.

[Nuke]

5 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

When I found out the submarine had a carbon fiber structure covered with a titanium sheet I couldn't believe how the hell anyone ever agreed to ride in it.

yea i was surprised by that myself. i dont see the advantage to using carbon fiber because weight saved just means you need to carry more ballast to cancel out your buoyancy. a tiny air bubble in an acrylic dome or an inclusion defect in a casting is enough to reject the part as structurally unsound. even a metal hull would need to be thoroughly x-rayed to make sure that there are no defects. acrylic can be visually inspected for being transparent. idk how you go about removing or even detecting similar defects in a laminated structure like carbon fiber composite. 

[Kerbart]

38 minutes ago, Nuke said:

yea i was surprised by that myself. i dont see the advantage to using carbon fiber because weight saved just means you need to carry more ballast to cancel out your buoyancy.

Far from defending the design, but anything going that deep will have very little inherit buoyancy. Pretty much anything that can be exposed to water will be to remove fatal pressure gradients. so all the buoyancy you need comes from the air bubble inside the pressure vessel. I doubt having too much buoyancy is that much of a problem, it also allows quicker return to the surface in case of an emergency. That doesn't justify using carbon fiber over titanium in this case, but it seems like a legit plus, which doesn't mean it outweighs the negatives of that choice of material.

The one other way to create buoyancy blows up in size quickly: gasoline-filled containers. Since fluids are (hardly) compressible they don't need to withstand the pressure. The Trieste bathyscaphe followed that design route. But like a blimp you'll end up with a lot of volume for little buoyancy.

[kerbiloid]

https://www.newsweek.com/us-nuclear-submarines-use-controllers-similar-missing-titanic-sub-1808231

If it's understood right, the US nuke submarines are equipped with same cheap controllers from XBox, like the Titan submersible.

P.S.
I believe, with Silent Hunter V as software.

[OrdinaryKerman]

43 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

https://www.newsweek.com/us-nuclear-submarines-use-controllers-similar-missing-titanic-sub-1808231

If it's understood right, the US nuke submarines are equipped with same cheap controllers from XBox, like the Titan submersible.

P.S.
I believe, with Silent Hunter V as software.

The article you quoted says that the controllers are used for controlling ‘photonics masts’ i. e. cctv periscopes, not the whole sub

[kerbiloid]

3 minutes ago, OrdinaryKerman said:

The article you quoted says that the controllers are used for controlling ‘photonics masts’ i. e. cctv periscopes, not the whole sub

Now imagine what they use to control the whole sub, when  they even don't tell here...

(Understand me right, a sliding rule is still perfect in aviation.)

Edited June 24, 2023 by kerbiloid

[kerbiloid]

If something destructive happened inside, the carbon hull doesn't matter.

[adsii1970]

Several posts in this thread have been removed from this thread that was determined to violate the forum guidelines. As a reminder, every forum member must agree to follow the forum guidelines when creating a user account. The posts that were removed violated one or more of the following forum guidelines:

• Forum guideline 2.2b: Political, ideological or religious posts unrelated to Spaceflight, or of a nature deemed likely to result in behavior banned under rule 2.2D;
• Forum guideline 2.2c: Content unsuitable for children or younger audiences, e.g. nudity, sexually suggestive or explicit images, excessive violence, gore, and recreational drugs;
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• Forum guideline 2.2n: Flamebaiting, trolling, or any other messages made for the purpose of stirring up and otherwise getting a rise from users;

While we can discuss those issues - the failures of technology and engineering, the discussion of "conspiracy theories" is strictly off-limits. It is against the forum guidelines to engage in any discussion of sexism, racism, or other inflammatory topics that can create a hostile online environment for other users of this forum. Intercept Games intends to keep this forum and all its other social media platforms at a PG13 rating and a safe and inviting environment for all members. As a part of this effort, each forum member must agree to the terms of service, which requires following the forum guidelines when creating an account. Future guidelines violations will result in more severe action by the moderation team, including restricting access to any social media platform operated by Intercept Games.

Let us not forget that there are actual humans - people who were loved by their families and friends - who were killed in this tragedy of technological and engineering failure. This thread was about the human aspect of the mission to save them. Now we know their fate, let us not make jokes, racially motivated attacks, or other unkind remarks about their deaths.

[magnemoe]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:22 AM, OrdinaryKerman said:

The article you quoted says that the controllers are used for controlling ‘photonics masts’ i. e. cctv periscopes, not the whole sub

Now that is still an mission critical system as you might need visual identification of an target before firing and an submarine is an very expensive platform. 
Using it to control an tactical drone or an remote weapon system on an truck on the other hand is fine as its relatively cheap systems, you obviously want an wired one as the enemy might jam Bluetooth. 
You can also have primary and secondary controls where the secondary is the controller who I assume is true for the sub, but the controller was more intuitive for the sailors. 

An interesting parallel,  back during WW 2 the B 29 bombers used periscope sights and an analog targeting computer.  gunners could be assigned multiple guns almost like warships guns. 
But training the gunners took time as it was totally alien for them, 
Then we got remote operated guns and the soldiers just had to understand the interface, the turret and guns limit rest was like an video game, yes the system was much more user friendly but the idea that you can be stationary and rotate and aim an machine gun 

[StrandedonEarth]

This sums things up perfectly...

E: and a demo....

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by StrandedonEarth

[Nuke]

dont feed the ceos. it just enables them to fail in more expensive ways. 

[DDE]

[steve9728]

1 hour ago, DDE said:

Welcome to the Europa

[Nuke]

while the gamepad memes are amusing, it didnt make the pressure hull implode. unless one of the tourists got mad and threw the controller at the inside of the tube. it would be amusing if they recovered it. 

[kerbiloid]

The meme got popular.