KSP2 refund

[Lisias]

22 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Other players are happy to roll with it. Thats all completely reasonable.

How many?

 

23 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I guess unless you're for some reason hoping the game gets cancelled I don't quite understand the utility of mounting a theatrical crusade against the people actually working on the game. That seems weirdly counterproductive. 

Nope. It's exactly the other way around. It's very productive on preventing stunts like that to happen again.

It's exactly what's being done on Unity Technologies, by the way - the ad boycott is still ongoing, and the first signs of the consequences is already happening, Riccitiello not only stepped down as CEO, but also from the Board and every single position he had on Unity Technologies - my opinion is that it's not enough, more people need to be purged, but it's not up to me to decide.

Actions have consequences. It's more than due time to users start to react against abuses from the Game Industry: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...

[Pthigrivi]

18 minutes ago, Lisias said:

It's exactly what's being done on Unity Technologies, by the way - the ad boycott is still ongoing, and the first signs of the consequences is already happening, Riccitiello not only stepped down as CEO, but also from the Board and every single position he had on Unity Technologies - my opinion is that it's not enough, more people need to be purged, but it's not up to me to decide.

But thats not due to fans, thats due to developer backlash. What you're saying is we should convince as many other players as possible to give up hope that KSP can or will improve--despite obvious evidence to the contrary--tank the game, and then... a bunch of people at Intercept get laid off? And players never get to see colonies or interstellar? That seems like a lot of collateral damage to wag your finger at some upper manager at T2 who will just shrug and move on. Wouldn't we much prefer they make good by sticking to it and actually following through?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Lisias]

24 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

But thats not due to fans, thats due to developer backlash. 

What's the difference? Developers are Unity's clients. Users/fans are Devolopers's clients.

It's exactly the same.

 

26 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

.What you're saying is we should convince as many other players as possible to give up hope that KSP can or will improve--despite obvious evidence to the contrary--tank the game, and then... a bunch of people at Intercept get laid off? 

It's not my job to give hope to anyone. I'm just using my free time to exercise my opinion about the current status quo. I suggest you redirect your concerns to people that are being paid to do such.

I!m just telling you what should be obvious: failure on managing your clients expectations will doom your job and hinder your employability. Exactly as it's happening to Riccitiello.

It's not my job to secure anyone's else job!

 

31 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

And players never get to see colonies or interstellar? That seems like a lot of collateral damage to wag your finger at some upper manager at T2 who will just shrug and move on. Wouldn't we much prefer they make good by sticking to it and actually following through?

I will answer your question with another question: do you think it's fair to Riccitiello to be purged from Unity Technologies due a mistake? He was doing a decent job since 2014, as I had heard, why Developers didn't just acknowledged his efforts and just agreed to pay the install fees?

Do you know how many Unity Developers are going to be laid off because of this? How many features will not be implemented anymore on the engine? 

Wouldn't be much better if the Developers had just agreed with the new payment model without this hurting boycott, securing Unity's funds so they can keep pushing features on this marvelous engine?

[Periple]

52 minutes ago, Lisias said:

It's exactly what's being done on Unity Technologies, by the way - the ad boycott is still ongoing, and the first signs of the consequences is already happening, Riccitiello not only stepped down as CEO, but also from the Board and every single position he had on Unity Technologies - my opinion is that it's not enough, more people need to be purged, but it's not up to me to decide.

I think these are two totally different things. The Unity exodus is all about business. We can’t trust them to support what we do in a sustainable way anymore so we’re looking for alternatives. It’s about money.

I also concur with @Pthigrivi — what’s the upside for us as KSP fans if we do manage to kill the franchise? T2 will just write it off, mothball the IP, and draw the conclusion that space simulators aren’t viable.

[Pthigrivi]

9 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I will answer your question with another question: do you think it's fair to Riccitiello to be purged from Unity Technologies due a mistake? He was doing a decent job since 2014, as I had heard, why Developers didn't just acknowledged his efforts and just agreed to pay the install fees?

Do you know how many Unity Developers are going to be laid off because of this? How many features will not be implemented anymore on the engine? 

Wouldn't be much better if the Developers had just agreed with the new payment model without this hurting boycott, securing Unity's funds so they can keep pushing features on this marvelous engine?

The analogy doesn't hold though. That was a somewhat hair-brained pricing scheme and the person at the top fell. Thats a bit different from lobbying that because the CEO overestimated his leverage Unity itself should be shut down and everyone who works on it loses their jobs and all the games that depend on it lose support. That would sound wildly misplaced and crazy counterproductive to me.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[The Aziz]

29 minutes ago, Lisias said:

What's the difference? Developers are Unity's clients. Users/fans are Devolopers's clients.

It's exactly the same.

The difference is, since you clearly didn't notice, that the developers are trying to make a living on the product. You aren't. You're an End User. The final point on the game production chain, if you can call it that.

Edited October 10, 2023 by The Aziz

[Lisias]

8 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

The difference is, since you clearly didn't notice, that the developers are trying to make a living on the product. You aren't. You're an End User. The final point on the game production chain, if you can call it that.

Sir, you just implied that End Users didn't have to work (hard, most of the time) in order to earn the money and have the free time needed to spend on games.

WE ARE FIGHTING FOR PUTTING FOOD ON THE TABLE THE SAME. Game Developers are not the only ones bashing their arses around here.

I can understand (and respect) @Periple and @Pthigrivi points of views, besides not agreeing with most of them - but yours, definitely, it's beyound reasoning.

[The Aziz]

You don't need the game to live. It's a luxury whim for you. 

[NH4Cl Enthusiast]

I don't think that canning the game now would do anyone any good, but in general if companies would have a higher risk of facing complete suspension of sales and forced refunds in cases where the product is clearly half baked and sold under false pretenses, it might benefit us as customers and weed out much of the bad practices. 

In case of KSP2 many people have felt they were essentially scammed and not provided adequate refund window and options. Due to many reasons the game industry can get away with this pretty much always when it happens unlike with any other types of consumer products. Anyone is free to think whatever on the topic, but accepting horrible game launches as the industry standard is not to our benefit as consumers. 

[Meecrob]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

You don't need the game to live. It's a luxury whim for you. 

Anything beyond a hunter/gatherer lifestyle could be argued as a luxury that is not necessary for survival, if you really want to be obtuse. You don't need to develop a game to live.

 

The point is that KSP2 has had a troubled launch that has been exacerbated by the general decay/anti-consumer practices of the gaming industry. People are stating that they are sick of feeling ripped off. The fact that we could live our lives without the game is zero consolation.

 

Edit: This is the entertainment industry.  We are not entertained.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Meecrob

[Pthigrivi]

Error post. Im an idiot. Disregard. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Superfluous J]

7 hours ago, Meecrob said:

Anything beyond a hunter/gatherer lifestyle could be argued as a luxury that is not necessary for survival, if you really want to be obtuse. You don't need to develop a game to live.

It's not being obtuse to say that a product that allows you to do your job is different than a product that lets you have fun.

[Pthigrivi]

I’ll also point out,  much as I loathe supposition and counterfactual corporate fan-fic, that No Mans Sky sold fewer than a million copies in 2016 despite all the hype. They dug it out though and now they’re up to 10m units. There’s no reason to wring one’s hands about another 12 or 24mo of development if in the end you’re delivering a product with real quality and appeal. There’s been a real cost to forcing KSP2s release too early in that its desperately difficult to make a good second impression. Id hope publishers are seeing the value of a deserved delay now in the Starfield release. Its also got big problems with bugs and balance but its at least solidly performing and fun to play. With another 8 or 12 months Im sure Intercept could have brought KSP2 up to a much more enjoyable out of the gate experience. Still, as in all things quality shines through eventually. 

[Fluke]

8 hours ago, Meecrob said:

Anything beyond a hunter/gatherer lifestyle could be argued as a luxury that is not necessary for survival, if you really want to be obtuse. You don't need to develop a game to live.

 

This is in no way directed at you, but my God, after returning to the forums after a few months, are the discussions about a piece of software really at this point?

[PDCWolf]

31 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

I’ll also point out,  much as I loathe supposition and counterfactual corporate fan-fic, that No Mans Sky sold fewer than a million copies in 2016 despite all the hype. They dug it out though and now they’re up to 10m units. There’s no reason to wring one’s hands about another 12 or 24mo of development if in the end you’re delivering a product with real quality and appeal. There’s been a real cost to forcing KSP2s release too early in that its desperately difficult to make a good second impression. Id hope publishers are seeing the value of a deserved delay now in the Starfield release. Its also got big problems with bugs and balance but its at least solidly performing and fun to play. With another 8 or 12 months Im sure Intercept could have brought KSP2 up to a much more enjoyable out of the gate experience. Still, as in all things quality shines through eventually. 

Yay this again.

3 delays, 3 years, plus 8 months now, not a rush, circular argument, *waves hands*, that's all folks.

[Meecrob]

1 hour ago, Fluke said:

This is in no way directed at you, but my God, after returning to the forums after a few months, are the discussions about a piece of software really at this point?

Nah, "velocity is good"

[Meecrob]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

It's not being obtuse to say that a product that allows you to do your job is different than a product that lets you have fun.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. As a consumer, I am buying a game for my amusement. whatever else is extra. I'm happy if devs have fun making the game, but like come to reality bro..I don't expect my clients to understand my side, I just give them a good experience. That's kinda the point of being paid for your services...Clients are happy...

Edited October 11, 2023 by Meecrob

[Periple]

If you go to the movies and you don’t like the movie, do you routinely go to the box office and demand your money back? Does it work?

[Meecrob]

Um, no. Put your strawman away.

 

I don't think its KSP yet. You think it is...that's cool, I won't argue.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Meecrob

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Meecrob said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

As this forum software ate my reply, I'm going to be brief.

There was a disconnect between what we were saying and I'm willing to just drop it. We were talking about different things and I'm not going to detail it again. Not your fault. Not my fault (outside of trusting the forum software to not just toss my post away). I don't know if you'd agree with my point or I yours otherwise, but at this point it's too much work for how much I care.

[Meecrob]

17 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

As this forum software ate my reply, I'm going to be brief.

There was a disconnect between what we were saying and I'm willing to just drop it. We were talking about different things and I'm not going to detail it again. Not your fault. Not my fault (outside of trusting the forum software to not just toss my post away). I don't know if you'd agree with my point or I yours otherwise, but at this point it's too much work for how much I care.

If it was a disconnect, I'll drop it also, I hate running in circles. I get not caring anymore. Look, somehow both of us are here now...I just hope you have a good night...same with everyone else who reads this! Lets pretend I am correct for a second, its not much fun being correct with nothing to do about it. I cannot say I have a better idea...like nothing nobody else hasn't thought of before. I cannot claim anything here.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Meecrob

[Siska]

16 hours ago, Lisias said:

How many?

149 and dropping

[Siska]

On 10/10/2023 at 6:26 PM, Periple said:

I also concur with @Pthigrivi — what’s the upside for us as KSP fans if we do manage to kill the franchise? T2 will just write it off, mothball the IP, and draw the conclusion that space simulators aren’t viable.

So you say gamers shoud take the responsibility? I think management team (propably nate) should take it.

Based on your opinion players are responsible for not cheering enough to motivate the team.

There is rarely an EA release with this kind of reputation. I think that it's a part of project management to think and deliver it the best way possible.

So if you buy an badly built Tesla car, you should motivate Elon Musk, cheer him so next time you buy it it may be better. That is not the way it goes.

We live in a capitalism, where open critic expells bad products from the market, and another better product is more sucessfull because it is plainly better. At least that's the basic of capitalism.

Your opinion is more soviet style, where you could buy 1 of 3 available cars, and be happy about it.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Siska

[The Aziz]

4 hours ago, Siska said:

There is rarely an EA release with this kind of reputation

But it's becoming oddly frequent with non-EA releases lately. Weird, isn't it? We, as players, seem to allow full releases of games in crappy state, but expect EA titles to be perfect? Aight.

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

But it's becoming oddly frequent with non-EA releases lately. Weird, isn't it? We, as players, seem to allow full releases of games in crappy state, but expect EA titles to be perfect? Aight.

Players do not allow full releases to be released in poor quality. This is allowed by the developers and publisher. Players can only criticize the game on the Internet and make a refund. And regarding KSP2, we must take into account the previous history of delays; for many years there was no talk of any early access.