Anyone else tired of the KSP2 negativity perpetuated by "youtubers"?

[Great Liao]

Before I start talking about this, a formal introduction from me, as I'm not on the KSP2 section of the forums. Hey, I'm Great Liao, a modder for KSP¹ who works on planet packs to enhance the kerbolar system. My PC is broken and so I am writing this on my phone, and so I haven't been able to play the game since Sept. 

So, recently, (I really don't follow KSP2), I noticed long content "videos" about how KSP¹ is dying and how we need to get rid of KSP2. While it is true that KSP1 may be dying, I don't believe that KSP2 needs to be removed outright. Plus, the youtubers seem to be constantly repetitive about the same point over and over. I can understand their frustration (I share it as well, that's why I didn't buy the game), but the persistent negativity is annoying. I understand that you dislike KSP2 and the devs, but don't vent all over the place.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Great Liao

[Guest]

How can I be tired of something I pay no attention to, at all, whatsoever? Those people chase trends and clicks, they're not worth my time.

[Superfluous J]

Talking about how much you hate them is almost as bad as them talking about how much they hate things.

You're just directing clicks their way. At least you didn't include a link

[Kerbart]

Almost as tired as of the bugs in KSP2 itself. The solution to the problem seems simple: squash the bugs. Makes me wonder why the dev team doesn't do that with more gusto.

[Great Liao]

2 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Almost as tired as of the bugs in KSP2 itself. The solution to the problem seems simple: squash the bugs. Makes me wonder why the dev team doesn't do that with more gusto.

It's not that simple to squash a bug. They should though, or just do it better the first time.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Great Liao

[Superfluous J]

I mean they should just not code the bugs in in the first place.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Kerbart said:

The solution to the problem seems simple: squash the bugs.

15 years of memeified culture around "Todd Howard lies" that aren't lies, just random sentences taken out of context, tell me otherwise. (Seriously, think of one, Google the original bit in which it was said and you'll find out it was completely right, it's not even fun how easy it is to debunk those, yes, even the 200 endings for fallout 3)

A game and the narrative around said game live 2 distinct lives, sometimes fixing the game fixes you reputation, other times Trigger releases am Anime on Netflix about the game in collaboration with the Dev studio, and the hive mind suddenly considers the game fixed, despite the "unfixable deep flaws about choices story and level design" still being there were they were just a week earlier.

 

Negative emotions, rants about how bad an industry is, negativity in general brings more views and clicks with less effort than anything else. This has been demonstrated over and over again in media and news reporting in general, YouTubers are just catching up with that.

Seriously, we're talking about someone who defined hiring modders as "poaching" them from the community. That's half of that video, just the laziest and dumbest way possible of turning an objectively good news into something to complain about.

I'd say do not give him clicks, but it's irrelevant, there's plenty of people not even playing games that feed on that negativity, that keep "informed" on channels like that one on games that they never played, or only tried for a short amount of time.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Master39

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Master39 said:

Negative emotions, rants about how bad an industry is, negativity in general brings more views and clicks with less effort than anything else. This has been demonstrated over and over again in media and news reporting in general, YouTubers are just catching up with that.

I've been on the other side of that. Just completely wrong things get shouted out as facts, and it's impossible to get a word in edgeways. If you say something anonymously it gets discounted because it's anonymous, if you dare say it with your name and face you're painted as a sellout and company man, and what you said is discounted as lies; if you show documentary evidence, nobody pays attention, and if the documentary evidence can't be shown due to legal reasons, you're again called a liar. When half the Internet is shouting at you (or worse, "just asking questions"), there's nothing you can do except hunker down and wait for it to blow over, then maybe slowly start bringing out the other side of the story. The good news is that it eventually does blow over, as most of the haters move onto something new to hate, although there will always remain a small, loud, hard core who will never relent.

I don't think humanity is ready for a global town square, it just amplifies the loudest, meanest, and worst voices!

Edited October 26, 2023 by Periple

[Mutex]

6 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Talking about how much you hate them is almost as bad as them talking about how much they hate things.

You're just directing clicks their way. At least you didn't include a link

Agreed. Great Liao, you should take that Youtuber's name out of the topic title if you don't want to drive traffic to them.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Periple said:

I've been on the other side of that. Just completely wrong things get shouted out as facts, and it's impossible to get a word in edgeways. If you say something anonymously it gets discounted because it's anonymous, if you dare say it with your name and face you're painted as a sellout and company man, and what you said is discounted as lies; if you show documentary evidence, nobody pays attention, and if the documentary evidence can't be shown due to legal reasons, you're again called a liar. When half the Internet is shouting at you (or worse, "just asking questions"), there's nothing you can do except hunker down and wait for it to blow over, then maybe slowly start bringing out the other side of the story. The good news is that it eventually does blow over, as most of the haters move onto something new to hate, although there will always remain a small, loud, hard core who will never relent.

I don't think humanity is ready for a global town square, it just amplifies the loudest, meanest, and worst voices!

I've seen that enough with both Starfield and Cyberpunk, a whole discussion about how a quest or a story elements railroads you and ignore choice, upvoted to the homepage of Reddit, hundreds of people claiming that that's what they've experienced, and then there's me, playing that quest just a couple of hours ago, knowing that it doesn't go that way, that there's way more option than that, and it's not like nobody told them in the comments, it's just that those comments are downvoted to oblivion.

And then, like magic, everything is fixed, and the shadow goes away, and the game is great without all those "deep structural problems" being touched at all. The eye of Sauron is focusing on something else now.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

2 hours ago, Master39 said:

I've seen that enough with both Starfield and Cyberpunk, a whole discussion about how a quest or a story elements railroads you and ignore choice, upvoted to the homepage of Reddit, hundreds of people claiming that that's what they've experienced, and then there's me, playing that quest just a couple of hours ago, knowing that it doesn't go that way, that there's way more option than that, and it's not like nobody told them in the comments, it's just that those comments are downvoted to oblivion.

And then, like magic, everything is fixed, and the shadow goes away, and the game is great without all those "deep structural problems" being touched at all. The eye of Sauron is focusing on something else now.

There’s a reason I don’t identify as a gamer.

Saw the Yakez vid pop up on my YT feed.  Did not subsidize the troll.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Master39 said:

I've seen that enough with both Starfield and Cyberpunk

The Starfield vitriol is downright stupid. It's not even funny, it's just dumb as hell. Don't even get me started on Cyberpunk (or the inevitable comparison between the games)... I accidentally into the Starfield subreddit and wish I'd never, I'm convinced it lowered my intelligence measurably.

People have zero concept of developer vision, never consider that gameplay concepts have in all likelihood been tried and discarded for whatever reason, and absolutely follow the mob if that's the most popular thing to do. Youtube and Reddit (especially) contribute to idiotic vitriol with their popularity contests.

[Vl3d]

There are KSP1 fans that don't believe in KSP2. It's normal.

[AtomicTech]

15 hours ago, Great Liao said:

Before I start talking about this, a formal introduction from me, as I'm not on the KSP2 section of the forums. Hey, I'm Great Liao, a modder for KSP¹ who works on planet packs to enhance the kerbolar system. My PC is broken and so I am writing this on my phone, and so I haven't been able to play the game since Sept. 

So, recently, (I really don't follow KSP2), I noticed long content "videos" about how KSP¹ is dying and how we need to get rid of KSP2. While it is true that KSP1 may be dying, I don't believe that KSP2 needs to be removed outright. Plus, the youtubers seem to be constantly repetitive about the same point over and over. I can understand their frustration (I share it as well, that's why I didn't buy the game), but the persistent negativity is annoying. I understand that you dislike KSP2 and the devs, but don't vent all over the place.

Hear hear!

It's really just toxicity for the sake of toxicity at this point.

[PDCWolf]

It's funny to me the 2 views that this topic has "exposed" (not in the negative connotation of the word):

1. I'm not negative because I'm smarter. (Conversely, I don't care because I'm smarter).
2. I'm not negative because I believe positivity has an impact.

As for the later, good for you I guess, even though those people end up being perceived as a cult (i.e. the discord). For the former... yeah if you think you're above everyone else just because you have the opinions and views that you happen to have, you might be beyond any discussion and argument as well.

15 hours ago, Great Liao said:

Before I start talking about this, a formal introduction from me, as I'm not on the KSP2 section of the forums. Hey, I'm Great Liao, a modder for KSP¹ who works on planet packs to enhance the kerbolar system. My PC is broken and so I am writing this on my phone, and so I haven't been able to play the game since Sept. 

So, recently, (I really don't follow KSP2), I noticed long content "videos" about how KSP¹ is dying and how we need to get rid of KSP2. While it is true that KSP1 may be dying, I don't believe that KSP2 needs to be removed outright. Plus, the youtubers seem to be constantly repetitive about the same point over and over. I can understand their frustration (I share it as well, that's why I didn't buy the game), but the persistent negativity is annoying. I understand that you dislike KSP2 and the devs, but don't vent all over the place.

The first thing you have to accept is negativity is justified. Is it becoming less justified as the game gets "better"? yes, but it'll never be completely unjustified. The second thing you have to accept is that negativity is the current majority. Mostly thanks to the first, a lot of people feel negative about the game, in fact outside of the forum and discord (and not that much in the forum even), the normal opinion about the game is negative. Lastly, for content creators, creating for the majority is what matters. The majority are negative about the game, justifiedly so, and such making "negative" content about KSP2 will resonate with them.

Now, does this make Yakez a troll, toxic clout chaser as so many people want to paint him as? Probably not. Again, negativity is justified, and the most common feeling regarding the game. That's why what these types of threads do is dehumanize people with different opinions. "Down with the toxic trolls" and such.

 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Down with the toxic trolls

 I agree, 100%. Clout-chasing and mob-mind are actual things, and they are extremely damaging to actual, constructive discourse. It's nothing but trolling.

"Dehumanizing" is such an overblown and pompous way to describe criticism and anger against people who refuse to meet in the middle, have nothing constructive to add, and create imaginary conspiracies out of thin air, ESPECIALLY in the context of a video game.

Edited October 26, 2023 by regex

[PDCWolf]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

 I agree, 100%. Clout-chasing and mob-mind are actual things, and they are extremely damaging to actual, constructive discourse. It's nothing but trolling.

"Dehumanizing" is such an overblown and pompous way to describe criticism and anger against people who refuse to meet in the middle, have nothing constructive to add, and create imaginary conspiracies out of thin air, ESPECIALLY in the context of a video game.

I don't know if there's a word that implies the same to a lesser degree. However your post is a clear example of what I was talking about, thank you.

[Guest]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

I don't know if there's a word that implies the same to a lesser degree. However your post is a clear example of what I was talking about, thank you.

And I will absolutely continue to make those posts because I have perspective on what "dehumanizing" actually means and where it actually causes harm.

[Vanamonde]

Since this is about aspects of the player community rather than the game itself, this thread has been moved to Kerbal Network. 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Now, does this make Yakez a troll, toxic clout chaser as so many people want to paint him as? Probably not. Again, negativity is justified, and the most common feeling regarding the game. That's why what these types of threads do is dehumanize people with different opinions. "Down with the toxic trolls" and such.

Negativity is such an abstract term, let's get down to the actual talking points.

I will skip on the whole "they've announced an update, it will suck, everything is a lie", let's jump to the meat of the video. The big argument that gave the video it's title: Modders poaching.

Whats the news? The studio hired some modders, recognizing their value and paying them to do what they previously did for free.

That's the red flag.

He's basically taking some genuine good news and turning it into a negative point with some surprisingly acrobatic mental gymnastics.

Even if someone really believes that, it's misguided at best, and more than a bit disrespectful towards the modding community.

He's basically arguing that modders should not be hired because otherwise they stop making free stuff he enjoys.

 

It's a video about the announcement of an update and it's just short of being titled "Evil Mega-Corp kidnaps modders and forces them to work on the update (which is also just a lazy copy-paste)"

 

Is he a troll? Nah, just chasing the algorithm by saying whatever it's needed to get engagement.

[PDCWolf]

5 hours ago, Master39 said:

He's basically taking some genuine good news and turning it into a negative point with some surprisingly acrobatic mental gymnastics.

Well, I definitely don't agree with how he puts it in the video, but I do have an opinion that's kinda similar:

The clouds have been a well known performance hog for 8 months, it took them hiring Blackrack for that to be done correctly, and the graphics quality actually jumped after that. So here's what I said on reddit: Yay on Blackrack getting hired, absolutely not yay on whoever was doing that work before [and whatever they're supposed to be doing now].

Like yes, hiring Blackrack has been a positive for the game, and for him, that's not even arguable, but it does let you see that a single, well trained man can fix the mess they made and haven't been able to fix in 8 months.

That people are happy enough with Blackrack getting hired and the result of his work shouldn't occlude that there was a big issue there that Blackrack had to step in and solve. Again, congrats to him and very well done to IG for figuring out he was the man for the job.

 

[Superfluous J]

18 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

it does let you see that a single, well trained man can fix the mess they made and haven't been able to fix in 8 months.

Actually what it tells me is that the entire team did a lot better than we thought if one person can come in and change one thing and suddenly the game's running way better than it was before.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, Superfluous J said:

Actually what it tells me is that the entire team did a lot better than we thought if one person can come in and change one thing and suddenly the game's running way better than it was before.

If they could do it so well why not do it earlier? Either blackrack was needed, or he wasn't.

Edited October 27, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Superfluous J]

26 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

If they could do it so well why not do it earlier? Either blackrack was needed, or he wasn't.

Blackrack did a great job on that one thing, yes.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

The clouds have been a well known performance hog for 8 months, it took them hiring Blackrack for that to be done correctly, and the graphics quality actually jumped after that. So here's what I said on reddit: Yay on Blackrack getting hired, absolutely not yay on whoever was doing that work before [and whatever they're supposed to be doing now].

This is a way more reasonable take than claiming that modders should stay unemployed because otherwise they stop modding.

BTW The video is set on private now...

I don't know why they only managed to fix the clouds now, maybe it's a cumulative upgrade, maybe they lined up the announcement to make their new modder hire look even better from a PR standpoint, or, most likely, after 8 years working on KSP clouds specifically (I'm going by the 2015 date on the EVE forum post) Blackrack is really that good at working on KSP clouds and scattering effects. Maybe there's people more technically prepared than him, on paper, but he did it all, he tested that mod over 8 years of evolving hardware, he knows all the pitfalls, he knows the tricks, and he directly managed the feedback and problems of the mod's users.