Science is pretty much stupid. Just get rid of it.

[Spicat]

1 hour ago, Meecrob said:

My honest opinion is that votes don't work. The Devs work on things in their own order. Proof is that they could have replaced the text the day after they released, after everyone rightfully said the font sucked...its 11 months later and its the same font...the Devs don't listen.

Votes do work, the top 20 list as always been the focus of the team, proof is that this list change a lot because fixes are implemented.

Your proof is about a suggestion,  and those can’t be voted in the bug report forum so it’s not very relevant to the subject matter.

Also I don’t want to create a debate but changing a font is not as simple as it seems, if they want to remove the pixelated font they have to redo their whole design direction which is not only the in game UI but all assets used in communications and marketing. Of course in game they have to check every text for every localization to see if each one fit each container they are placed in. I understand it was not much of a priority until now.

They seems to recently have made the UI a focus so we will likely see changes about this. Personally, I don’t think the pixel font should necessarily be replaced (even if I wouldn’t be mad if it's trashed), it’s only a problem for tiny text and even for those the readability can be much better. See the first versions of the game before the rescaling option was in, fonts were a lot more crisps.

Edited February 1 by Spicat

[Meecrob]

20 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Votes do work, the top 20 list as always been the focus of the team, proof is that this list change a lot because fixes are implemented.

Your proof is about a suggestion,  and those can’t be voted in the bug report forum so it’s not very relevant to the subject matter.

Also I don’t want to enter the debate but changing a font is not as simple as it seems, if they want to remove the pixelated font they have to redo their whole design direction which is not only the in game UI but all assets used in communications and marketing. Of course in game they have to check every text for every localization to see if each one fit each container they are placed in. I understand it was not much of a priority until now.

They seems to recently have made the UI a focus so we will likely see changes about this. Personally, I don’t think the pixel font should necessarily be replaced (even if I wouldn’t be mad if it's trashed), it’s only a problem for tiny text and even for those the readability can be much better. See the first versions of the game before the rescaling option was in, fonts were a lot more crisps.

Lets be honest here, most bug reports are kinda obvious. 

Having said that, the font is not a bug.  It is an obvious design choice. My point is that they know everyone hates it, yet they keep it in while they find a better one. I would honestly prefer comic sans at this point if it was legible.

We all told them we hate the font. It is still the same. They didn't listen. Its not complicated.

Either way, we will disagree, I am not shy to say that I don't like how they decided to just change stuff for the sake of change and not improvement. Font is an example. Maneuver node is another. VAB controls...I could go on. None of these things actually improved anything...they changed it from KSP1, yeah, but it isn't better. This is a sequel. If you can't improve on a certain thing, leave it alone. The wheel was invented with KSP1. All I see is devs trying to re-invent it to be honest. KSP1 wasn't perfect, I'm not asking for a remake with a graphics upgrade, don't get me wrong. I just don't get why they changed stuff nobody complained about.

Edited February 1 by Meecrob

[Spicat]

11 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

Lets be honest here, most bug reports are kinda obvious. 

That doesn't mean it doesn't need a priority. They can't fix them all, and they especially can't fix them all at the same time. Some bugs are more annoying than others but it can sometimes be hard to really know what the community would prefer fixed first. That's why the KERB was made and this far, it has respected its goal. So for people that play the game that are annoyed by a specific bug should really vote it up, it's useful. (That was the main point of my message)

Besides, you would be surprised how a lot of critical bugs are not obvious at all.

Edited February 1 by Spicat

[Meecrob]

My point is that the majority of players do not like the font, and to change it is simple. Its not like its a bug they have to track down. I get that there are other issues to fix, but to have such tunnel vision that they do not go for the lowest hanging fruit raises my eyebrow.

[Spicat]

Just now, Meecrob said:

it is simple.

It's not.

I will just transfer an official response to this:

Anyway, I don't want to create a debate over this specifically. I was mainly talking about the fact that "votes don't work", which is not at all the case.

[Meecrob]

19 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Besides, you would be surprised how a lot of critical bugs are not obvious at all.

I'm referring to the ones that are obvious. I'm sure I would be surprised at the bugs that are not obvious. I asked the Devs to post about how they fixed non-obvious bugs in previous threads, lol.

My point is that someone would have to be kidding me to tell me with a straight face that the Devs didn't know that, for example, wobbly rockets are bad. I don't need to list all the issues, but surely you can agree that lots of issues do not need thousands of players testing it, they are simply obvious.

To your point, there are also other bugs that are not obvious, but I was not addressing those ones.

 

You replied, here is my reply: That sounds complicated, but lets remember they have Take Two behind them, I'm sure they have resources to deal with something like a font. Don't let the team feed you nonsense. They are trying to keep us engaged so we spend money. They will tell us anything so they don't have to admit a mistake. They have admitted this to us. I honestly believe they are busy working on fixing other parts of the game. They assessed that the font was less of a priority than the players think it is. I'm not saying they suck as devs. I'm saying they have not fixed it. I don't care what Dakota says, 11 months and counting to fix a font? It is obviously not a priority..

Edited February 1 by Meecrob

[hatterson]

22 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

We all told them we hate the font. It is still the same. They didn't listen. Its not complicated.

You seem to be confusing listening with doing what you said. They are fundamentally different things. The fact that they have provided multiple comments on the font shows that they do *listen*.

They listened and either disagree with the feedback or believe other things are higher priority (publicly the response has been more about priority, but obviously we don't know what's said/decided behind closed doors). Neither of those responses show that they don't listen to or value feedback, it shows that they don't have to (and shouldn't) just automatically do whatever they are told.

[Meecrob]

5 minutes ago, hatterson said:

You seem to be confusing listening with doing what you said. They are fundamentally different things. The fact that they have provided multiple comments on the font shows that they do *listen*.

They listened and either disagree with the feedback or believe other things are higher priority (publicly the response has been more about priority, but obviously we don't know what's said/decided behind closed doors). Neither of those responses show that they don't listen to or value feedback, it shows that they don't have to (and shouldn't) just automatically do whatever they are told.

Fair enough, I was incorrect in my diction. Rather than use the word "listen" I should have used the phrase "do something about"

Everyone hates the font and they have done nothing about it other than "listen"

I apologize, I should not have assumed that people would have known I meant I wanted to see action.

 

Edit: Sorry for the derail...my opinion on the new science is that I could put all my science experiments on one action group in KSP1 but I didn't cuz that seemed lame.

I really hope that the current science is a placeholder. We will see how the balance goes once colonies come out.

Edited February 1 by Meecrob

[hatterson]

Just now, Meecrob said:

Fair enough, I was incorrect in my diction. Rather than use the word "listen" I should have used the phrase "do something about"

Everyone hates the font and they have done nothing about it other than "listen"

I apologize, I should not have assumed that people would have known I meant I wanted to see action.

You originally said "My honest opinion is that votes don't work. The Devs work on things in their own order. " There are multiple examples of that being incorrect. Wobbly rockets being perhaps one of the most significant. They knew about wobbly rockets and, to a point, it was intentional. Then they saw how significant the community feedback about it was and spent time implementing an entire system they hasn't originally planned on implementing because of how loud and how significant the feedback was.  I suspect the fact that wobbly rockets also directly impacts gameplay as opposed to only visuals, impacted their prioritization as well.

On the font issue, the dev/decision making team has listened to the feedback and has decided that it is not (yet) at the level where it justifies spending the time it would take to resolve it. It's fine to disagree with that decision, but disagreeing with it doesn't mean that they never listen to or do things about the feedback.

[Meecrob]

So you agree that our opinions differ? Lets agree to disagree. You aren't telling me anything I have not heard before and I imagine vice versa.

I'm done arguing UI in a thread about Science.

Edited February 1 by Meecrob

[Oak7603]

I'm not trying to be argumentative but you keep saying everyone hates the font. It doesn't bother me at all. I have no issues with it in the slightest. I can read it all. I really don't care about fonts to the point I hadn't even noticed it at all.  If it has to be changed, i'd rather actual bugs are prioritised or new features are added. Font is at the bottom of my list. In fact it doesnt even get on a list.

[Meecrob]

7 minutes ago, Oak7603 said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative but you keep saying everyone hates the font. It doesn't bother me at all. I have no issues with it in the slightest. I can read it all. I really don't care about fonts to the point I hadn't even noticed it at all.  If it has to be changed, i'd rather actual bugs are prioritised or new features are added. Font is at the bottom of my list. In fact it doesnt even get on a list.

I'm being 100% serious here, you might be running the same resolution as the devs. I honestly think that if they could see what it looks like on some monitors/resolutions, they would prioritize the font issue. I have decent eyesight and I am having the same issues as lots of other people such as difficulty distinguishing a 0 from an 8. The font looks like it used to be a proper font, but someone resized it and it didn't scale properly.

Yes, I just talked about UI, flame me, sorry, lol. I'm done.

Edited February 1 by Meecrob

[magnemoe]

50 minutes ago, Oak7603 said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative but you keep saying everyone hates the font. It doesn't bother me at all. I have no issues with it in the slightest. I can read it all. I really don't care about fonts to the point I hadn't even noticed it at all.  If it has to be changed, i'd rather actual bugs are prioritised or new features are added. Font is at the bottom of my list. In fact it doesnt even get on a list.

Fonts are important for many. Its an office life carton in Norway, Dilbert but Norwegian work environment. 
Character: "30 minute meeting about the long term strategy and expansion document is too short also its an 2 days workshop about it next week"
Boss: "this meeting is about the content of it and if its the correct direction, the workshop is about spelling error, grammar, fonts and styles" 
Character nods. 

Fonts are also easy to change. Recommend changing system font to wingding. 

Edited February 1 by magnemoe

[hatterson]

53 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Fonts are important for many. Its an office life carton in Norway, Dilbert but Norwegian work environment. 
Character: "30 minute meeting about the long term strategy and expansion document is too short also its an 2 days workshop about it next week"
Boss: "this meeting is about the content of it and if its the correct direction, the workshop is about spelling error, grammar, fonts and styles" 
Character nods. 

Fonts are also easy to change. Recommend changing system font to wingding. 

Changing the font is trivial. Making sure every single place it's used that all of the UI scaling still works is not.

[Vanamonde]

Reminder that this thread is about the science system. Please stick to that and take other discussions to other threads. 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

58 minutes ago, hatterson said:

Changing the font is trivial. Making sure every single place it's used that all of the UI scaling still works is not.

Precision of  Language Jonas!

 

I love when someone succinctly sums something up so well. I hate the font too... but meh.

Give me an exploration mode with better progression for playstyle. 

If one player wants to spend 2 years dinking around the local SOI to *explore* the system in KSP1 was better equipped to facilitate this 

It another player with the exact same  install could push for that Tier 1 mega collector of science and try to rush the outer most reaches of the cosmos... and the mission system of KSP1 would continue to generate "newish missions.

(So far and beyond that with the contract packs)

 

Yes a good deal of these were repetitive and endless launch cycles are ALWAYS boring AF....

BUT

Even vague and poorly worded vaguely generalized directions can lead to wonderful new journeys of discovery. 

A mission to place Space Station in a SOI you only briefly visited before? 

Let's collect science from the Poles of Duna...

Yes you may have collected science from 10 other poles.. but to ME having the selection of general / repetitive / redundant contracts allowed me tp feel like I was actually managing a space agency.

 

 

What I have now is a glorious new overlay for sandbox with a few nice introductory missions.

To sh%& with the spirit of the original career mode. I truly think science & career can successfully be combined...

 

But it requires combining them. I feel the current version is like some Frankenstein fruit tree where the grafts are refusing to take.

You have removed the bulk of what made career what it was & hot glued it to a mostly intact science base

 

 

[hatterson]

2 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

Precision of  Language Jonas!

 

I love when someone succinctly sums something up so well. I hate the font too... but meh.

Give me an exploration mode with better progression for playstyle. 

If one player wants to spend 2 years dinking around the local SOI to *explore* the system in KSP1 was better equipped to facilitate this 

It another player with the exact same  install could push for that Tier 1 mega collector of science and try to rush the outer most reaches of the cosmos... and the mission system of KSP1 would continue to generate "newish missions.

(So far and beyond that with the contract packs)

 

Yes a good deal of these were repetitive and endless launch cycles are ALWAYS boring AF....

BUT

Even vague and poorly worded vaguely generalized directions can lead to wonderful new journeys of discovery. 

A mission to place Space Station in a SOI you only briefly visited before? 

Let's collect science from the Poles of Duna...

Yes you may have collected science from 10 other poles.. but to ME having the selection of general / repetitive / redundant contracts allowed me tp feel like I was actually managing a space agency.

 

 

What I have now is a glorious new overlay for sandbox with a few nice introductory missions.

To sh%& with the spirit of the original career mode. I truly think science & career can successfully be combined...

 

But it requires combining them. I feel the current version is like some Frankenstein fruit tree where the grafts are refusing to take.

You have removed the bulk of what made career what it was & hot glued it to a mostly intact science base

 

 

I think a lot of these additional contacts (different places to collect science, polar missions, space stations, etc.) will be introduced with colonies.

Space stations are effectively colonies in space. Polar orbits aren't very valuable when there's nothing to scan, etc. So when those things get added in, then those missions have a purpose.

The missions we have now aren't the final form of exploration mode. They're the initial campaign and a few random side missions, along with the bones of science collection, in order to show the system and get player feedback on it.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

 

14 minutes ago, hatterson said:

I think a lot of these additional contacts (different places to collect science, polar missions, space stations, etc.) will be introduced with colonies.

Space stations are effectively colonies in space. Polar orbits aren't very valuable when there's nothing to scan, etc. So when those things get added in, then those missions have a purpose.

The missions we have now aren't the final form of exploration mode. They're the initial campaign and a few random side missions, along with the bones of science collection, in order to show the system and get player feedback on it.

Campaign i think sums up the difference in KSP1 vs 2

You are playing and ever will be playing a prescribed campaign with the very same mission selections ever time a series of global / regional events are triggered

There is no form of generated mission parameter at all.. even the one mod effecting  mission scope is very specific and still within the scope of the original parameters.

You are suggesting they may add more missions and I agree that is the case.. but it still becomes a far cry from what I was hoping for..

I want every time I come to duna to produce the required milestone contracts along with ancillary ones that make no difference other than exploring duna.. endlessly via repetived mission prompting.

I see this progressing into a multi-player / crafter where missions will be similiar to quest givers in other RPGs. Build a colony on Duna .. here's the 4 missions to go along with it. 

Maybe some community generated ones even.. and that will surely be fun.  But the same choices ever time + a couple.

Science is repetitive and boring. If a rover were on Mars right now.. somebody would be devising missions right up until the wheels fell off.. and bet some may even be repeated. Real science

KSP1 did amazing job creating a true sandbox with endless purpose. "gamification" 

I have a hard time seeing solo (re)playthroughs in the current scope ever having major appeal.

 

I feel they have abandoned thay direction entirely because. everyone knows the very best games require an internet connection.

Edited February 1 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Hanuman]

20 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

 

Campaign i think sums up the difference in KSP1 vs 2

You are playing and ever will be playing a prescribed campaign with the very same mission selections ever time a series of global / regional events are triggered

There is no form of generated mission parameter at all.. even the one mod effecting  mission scope is very specific and still within the scope of the original parameters.

You are suggesting they may add more missions and I agree that is the case.. but it still becomes a far cry from what I was hoping for..

I want every time I come to duna to produce the required milestone contracts along with ancillary ones that make no difference other than exploring duna.. endlessly via repetived mission prompting.

I see this progressing into a multi-player / crafter where missions will be similiar to quest givers in other RPGs. Build a colony on Duna .. here's the 4 missions to go along with it. 

Maybe some community generated ones even.. and that will surely be fun.  But the same choices ever time + a couple.

Science is repetitive and boring. If a rover were on Mars right now.. somebody would be devising missions right up until the wheels fell off.. and bet some may even be repeated. Real science

KSP1 did amazing job creating a true sandbox with endless purpose. "gamification" 

I have a hard time seeing solo (re)playthroughs in the current scope ever having major appeal.

 

I feel they have abandoned thay direction entirely because. everyone knows the very best games require an internet connection.

Well, with Multiplayer on the list, I get it for the internet connection, and I try to be hopeful for what that could inspire.  A much busier Mission Control interface with their curated missions, plus a community section for forum challenge and community voted missions, and section of random suggestions for missions you can pick up as both a nod to the first game and to keep that added replay value mechanic alive.  All of that would be fantastic.

Where I can’t help but feel like it wanders astray is in trying to distill two great game modes that exist at odds with one another into a single game mode, you’re just gonna end up with something worse.

I don’t just want them to remake the first game with better graphics, please don’t mistake me.  I would like to see this game be and do more, and I don’t think that it has to nor should it trade away the ways that made it special in order to become a one shot “You did it, you beat the KSP2 missons, time to uninstall it and play something else.” cash grab.

 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I do not necessarily think that both modes are disparate. I believe a great deal of additional conetent could be toggle options.

Play with the game feature you most enjoy!

Some may be derivative of others or be dependant but finding the *advanced tweakables* of explore mode itself would be awesome.

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

The thing that gets me is the talk from the Devs about the different biomes of each world. 

That's a really cool idea. 

I'm assuming some planning and development went into creating those regions. It would be cool if exploring them felt meaningful. 

As is, the only challenge seems to be landing. 

Some quick (too quick) button pushes later and the only thing you have is SP.   There is no gameplay component or information stored that tells the player anything interesting.  Nothing persistent.  The regions are just landing areas containing SP. 

Maybe - just maybe - that changes with the implementation / release of Colonies & Resource Management?  The information is sparse. 

I'd really like a Roadmap / development direction update - but given everything I don't blame them for keeping stuff close to the breast. 

[Hanuman]

20 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I do not necessarily think that both modes are disparate. I believe a great deal of additional conetent could be toggle options.

Play with the game feature you most enjoy!

Some may be derivative of others or be dependant but finding the *advanced tweakables* of explore mode itself would be awesome.

 

They’re not disparate, but they exist at odds with one another.  One entire game mode exists as a subset of the other.   So for some people Science won’t be enough complexity and challenge, and others will think of Career as too much.
Toggle options will be great, but then we’re still looking at a tech tree full of logic problems and looking like the total method for sorting is just size, so you got people “looking for a challenge” calling big fuel tanks overpowered with a straight face because they’re T4, while also ignoring SRBs completely because why not just slap 5 liquid engines on and keep throttle control.

 

[fragtzack]

Based on the sheer number of posts in this thread, I would hope Private Division takes the community concerns in this thread to heart. 

[Superfluous J]

16 minutes ago, fragtzack said:

Based on the sheer number of posts in this thread, I would hope Private Division takes the community concerns in this thread to heart. 

Not every post in this thread agrees with the subject.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

^^^

Yea.. science isn't stoopid. We make fishin' go BRRRRT.

I've seen more traction gained regarding the number of complaints leveraged specifically at the short coming of exploration.

I there's alot of bugs and UI concern along with an entire road map. 

Most *suggestion* style improvements beyond the scope of above mentioned occur from convenience or at the back end.

I saw this awesome badge mod today that adds nothing but fun!! I know once as stability increases the amazing modders will remedy my biggest issues

1.  lack of missions to promote varied playstyle

2.lacl of self generating often repetive datuh collection at the heart of any real science program.

 

 

Onto the veracity of Exploration as a single mode.

I will use the fact that one is a subset of the other (the other being what we seem to desire more of) to support my stance.

There never was any need for two separate game modes. Career was always essential Science Plus.

A few changes to weighting of science and everything else is on top. This could have been acheiced with a box you clicked when starting a new Science Mode game. 

 

One thing that was said which should be posted atop every white board around headquarters 

"There should be no wrong way to play the game"

A single forced interplanetary mission with a prefab craft and assisted maneuvers could correct that need to drive people interplanetary and show how easy it is.  You capture SOI and cut to landing montage.

Then jeb wakes and enters the frame. Walks and out and sees a very simple jumping flea and sighs.

 Mission Control 

Then when you get to Duna you see a spectacle from Jebs Dream

Alas  I have too much time and daydream often

Edited February 4 by Fizzlebop Smith