Developer Insights #23 - Black Hole Sun

[NexusHelium]

Has anyone else noticed that things are turning into the usual “I’m not satisfied with any thing that Intercept posts” and “Wow. This is a pretty good update” a lot sooner than it used to?

I'm personally the latter. I’m happy with all updates as long as they happen in the first place. I just want to let Intercept cook and I honestly don’t understand what all the issues the community are having. It won’t help if we attack all of their attempts at increased communications.

Edited April 6 by NexusHelium

[PDCWolf]

Props to writing the devblog and the work put in. Objectively by itself, it's a really good devblog and a lot of the stuff in it I genuinely didn't know and appreciate.

Now, we have to be realistic: this  devblog sadly doesn't exist in the best of circumstances. It's unexpected yes, but the bad kind of unexpected, it's also not what anyone wanted to know about right now. It is also... insufficient. It takes a single mod for KSP1 to reach the level of atmosphere graphics KSP2 has and surpass it:

Spoiler

And even if we were to ignore that, the devblog is about one of the most broken non-gameplay systems (or related to some of the most broken systems) as The Aziz showed.

Quote

It won’t help if we attack all of their attempts at increased communications.

They know what we want. They know what is needed. This is filler at best, deflection at worst.

[stephensmat]

10 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

They know what we want. They know what is needed. This is filler at best, deflection at worst.

Honestly, I'd wager that it was behind the scenes timing more than anything. They have multiple teams working on multiple targets, and this one happened to be close to something 'announce-able' first. We're begging for more communications about what's going on, so they gave us some.

It's not what people are most interested in right now, but it's people working hard, and that's better than a lot of EA games get.

[Westinghouse]

I might be a bit critical, but I'm still delighted that they post things like this. Anything is better than nothing, and the radio silence they have at times is frustrating. I'm personally very interested in reading into their technical solutions to things like this, and if anything the posts stimulate discussion and debate.

The big, big problem with the attitude of 'just leave them alone and let them cook' is that they've had a huge amount of development time already. They're more than four years behind the initial release schedule and they appear to have problems simply sticking to self-imposed deadlines such as the bi-weekly K.E.R.B. report. That unfortunately points to serious project management problems at Intercept, maybe inherited from Star Theory before them.

If they had been more open with what they were working on, many problems we've encountered could have been flagged much earlier by the community and fixed, for example wobbly rockets, the hard-to-read font, lack of IVA, the lack of an interplanetary manoeuvre planner,  the big Parts Manager interface.

[NexusHelium]

17 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

they appear to have problems simply sticking to self-imposed deadlines such as the bi-weekly K.E.R.B. report.

The thing about that is that it seems like the community is mad at them no matter what they do.

If they were to give us daily updates about the game, not only would that be a huge stress on Dakota and Mike but the community would get mad at them because most likely not a lot would be happening from day to day.

But if they cut back on updates to allow for more of an impact and give the CMs more time to work out other things like they did, then the community still gets mad. 

35 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

They know what we want. They know what is needed.

And that’s my whole problem. I don’t think they do know what we want in terms of communication because we as the community seem to get mad at them no matter what they try with us. To be perfectly honest, I'm not a big fan of waiting for updates and blogs and other things like that but I deal with it because... to put it simply... breaking a good chunk of the rules in software engineering and development isn't easy. If I was a game developer and I was met with this much backlash even if I was trying to give the people what they wanted, I would honestly just quit and probably say something like "Fine! You don't like what I'm making? I guess I just won't make it!" or something dumb like that. You have to give IG and all of the people working hard credit for how much they are trying to give us what they promised, backlash or none.

This game is getting better, and we don't necessarily need constant updates and reminders about that fact (though they are appreciated). I don't truly believe we should let them just sit back and do what they want because when you have a big group of people together, chances are some of them are going to have separate ideas on what this thing should be. We don't need to "let them cook" like I said, but we do need to trust that they are doing their best and we need to provide more constructive criticism than just saying "Why can't you add this?! Or update that?!". Communication is vital in early access, but what is more vital is that we continue to provide good support and suggestions for this thing that we collectively want, and we need to open up to the fact that not everything you want will be there (and consider the reasoning for that.)

*whew!*

I think I've been spending too much time on the discord

Edited April 6 by NexusHelium

[Westinghouse]

5 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

The thing about that is that it seems like the community is mad at them no matter what they do.

It's not the worst thing if we get mad at them from time to time. It's because we all care about them making KSP2 into a great game.

I wouldn't say we need daily updates, but weekly updates devblogs like this are lovely, and like I said, stimulate discussion. Personally I think they got cold feet and went quiet last year over the reaction to Nertea's heat flux devblog. Obviously it can be difficult and stressful for them at times, but that's what they signed up for with EA unfortunately. Openness and some external pressure can be healthy at times.

The very worst thing is not that we get mad, it's if we simply lose interest and this forum becomes a ghost town. If that happens, the franchise is dead.

[Meecrob]

3 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

And that’s my whole problem. I don’t think they do know what we want in terms of communication because we as the community seem to get mad at them no matter what they try with us.

Well, they are just phoning it in. We want an actual update on the state of development of the game and we get these like sleights of hand updates to dazzle when it really has nothing to do with when colonies will be dropping. Its the feeling of they don't care about us cuz we already dropped our $50. They care about new people to get to buy the game because they are horribly behind on sales.

2 hours ago, Westinghouse said:

The very worst thing is not that we get mad, it's if we simply lose interest and this forum becomes a ghost town. If that happens, the franchise is dead.

Quoted for truth!

Edited April 6 by Meecrob

[NexusHelium]

1 hour ago, Westinghouse said:

The very worst thing is not that we get mad, it's if we simply lose interest and this forum becomes a ghost town. If that happens, the franchise is dead.

Which is exactly why we shouldn't be so angry and bitter. Because then we will most definitely lose interest and hope faster. The franchise dies when everyone loses hope, and that seems to be doing nothing but speeding up. Which is why we as the community (and Intercept to a certain extent) needs to take a hard U-turn in our approach to this game and its progress in order to gain some hope again.

 

(yeah, I've definitely been spending too much time on the discord.)

59 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

They care about new people to get to buy the game becaus ethey are horribly behind on sales.

If they really only cared about scamming us and scamming other people. They wouldn't be still developing the game today and would put most, if not all, of their budget into adverts.

Do you guys remember No Man's Sky? Everyone thought that Hello Games was scamming their community and they ended up making one of the best space games of all time. I know that's not really a fair or close comparison, but it's the closest I have right now (waiting for KSP3  )

Edited April 6 by NexusHelium

[mc04]

28 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

Do you guys remember No Man's Sky? Everyone thought that Hello Games was scamming their community and they ended up making one of the best space games of all time. I know that's not really a fair or close comparison, but it's the closest I have right now (and it's similar in a good amount of ways)

the No Man's Sky comparisons have always been funny to me because that actually took a lot of original technical work, (vs reimplementing an existing game) and they came out with the first big update within a few months of release. (and iirc one or two more within the first year.)

edit:

28 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

Which is exactly why we shouldn't be so angry and bitter. Because then we will most definitely lose interest and hope faster. The franchise dies when everyone loses hope, and that seems to be doing nothing but speeding up. Which is why we as the community (and Intercept to a certain extent) needs to take a hard U-turn in our approach to this game and its progress in order to gain some hope again.

the community has no responsibility to artificially hype up something that doesn't deserve it. pretending that problems don't exist will not magically make them go away.  every active user on these forums could effusively praise every single official communication and it would still do absolutely zero to change the reasons why people aren't playing or buying the game.  

Edited April 6 by mc04

[Dakota]

Every communication is met with positive and negative responses. The share varies, but there's always going to be contrasting voices. Each platform has its biases, but also remember that the majority of players don't actively engage on the forums/reddit/discord/etc.  We have to take that into consideration when judging sentiment response to actions as well. I told Mike earlier today that I guessed that this dev blog's sentiment would have be 40% positive, 30% mixed, and 30% negative - and I think I was right.

40 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

The very worst thing is not that we get mad, it's if we simply lose interest and this forum becomes a ghost town. If that happens, the franchise is dead.

Definitely agree with this. Would rather there be critical responses to our work than nothing at all. Y'all care about Kerbal and the future of KSP2 and it shows!

---

Mike and I are working on it and we think you're going to like the changes we plan to make.

But keep telling us what you want - what you want to know about, who from, in what form, etc. It really helps

[Westinghouse]

Quote

Each platform has its biases, but also remember that the majority of players don't actively engage on the forums/reddit/discord/etc.  We have to take that into consideration when judging sentiment response to actions as well. I told Mike earlier today that I guessed that this dev blog's sentiment would have be 40% positive, 30% mixed, and 30% negative - and I think I was right.

Yeah, I'm not sure about how you got to this reasoning. What these responses to the devblog are a sample. A sample of enthusiastic KSP players. And I don't agree with your 40/30/30 reception - I'd say the feeling is we're a bit underwhelmed. For example, did you really have to call up NASA to ask how an eclipse works? That sounded like PR fluff to me.

Still, some communication is far better than none! There's that whole thread on the forum of course about the lack of communication and engagement (and no, silly memes about Capybaras on the Discord don't count). 

One thing about the solar eclipse coding example - it brings up the whole suggestion about something along those lines hasn't been implemented for CommNet signals occlusion. Maybe we should have some more communication from Nate about why that decision was taken (or just add it back in, like the original game!)

[Dakota]

16 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

did you really have to call up NASA to ask how an eclipse works?

They actually reached out to us about doing some things related to the eclipse. The nerds over there are just super excited for Monday and love to spread the news with interested communities.

16 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

it brings up the whole suggestion about something along those lines hasn't been implemented for CommNet signals occlusion. Maybe we should have some more communication from Nate about why that decision was taken (or just add it back in, like the original game!)

CommNet definitely deserves a solid answer from the team, I agree. Chris (Nertea) shared some of his thoughts last year, but it's become a major pain point for a small portion of the community. I'll see what I can do.

[Westinghouse]

Just now, Dakota said:

CommNet definitely deserves a solid answer from the team, I agree. Chris (Nertea) shared some of his thoughts last year, but it's become a major pain point for a small portion of the community. I'll see what I can do.

Well I tell you what, I really appreciate hearing that! I really do. Nertea is absolutely someone we like hearing from, even if it just sparks discussion (his heat transfer blog for example)

And like I said, we love communication! When I say it's underwhelming, I really just meant it just shows we're eager for news. 

[Dakota]

2 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

we're eager for news. 

we know! we're eager to share all the awesome stuff we're working on too

[NexusHelium]

58 minutes ago, Dakota said:

Every communication is met with positive and negative responses. The share varies, but there's always going to be contrasting voices.

Yeah. Completely agree, and it's always been so amazing to me how well you guys take the negative criticisms. I don't know the internal workings of Intercept but I imagine the doughnuts have something to do with it (please... ask Darrin to share his secrets)? 

People might not agree with some of the choices the team have made (myself included but that's not for this thread, which, thanks btw. really liked the read) but I gotta give you guys credit for holding so strong in seemingly... eh... not really impossible odds but you get my point.

1 hour ago, mc04 said:

the community has no responsibility to artificially hype up something that doesn't deserve it.

I half agree with this. I completely agree that we should not create hype because that is ultimately setting us up for disappointment (which I am guilty of) but I do not think that KSP2's current hype train is undeserved. People are excited for colonies. Some people are skeptical, and that is completely fine and deserved. I wouldn't personally say that Intercept has betrayed our trust but I can absolutely see how they have for some people and how some are just waiting to see what's going to happen.

                                                                                                                                                                ------------------

I'm also going to completely backtrack on what I said about the whole "U-turn" thing and most of everything else I said before. I don't even think I agreed with some of it while writing. I cannot stress enough how important negative responses are. Negative criticism tells you what certain people want and what others might not and allows to you to rework or add on to your systems for the better. It can allow you to look at your current design and say "hey, this idea is better than mine" because a lot of the time it is. There is most likely someone in the world who might know better than you or at the very least provide good advice and ways to steer work to a more important subject. It is important to know what the people want and to seriously consider their opinions to improve on what you have built *for these people*. What @Westinghouse is completely and absolutely true. The worst thing that could happen to this game is if people (especially the community) stop caring about fixing it and lose interest.

My only problem is just how far some people take it sometimes (emphasis on "sometimes"). And don't get me wrong, all the overly negative is pushed back by a large number of positive and even neutral (me!) feedback and responses to the team's decisions. My thoughts on everything right now are completely neutral (you can add me to that 30% Dakota). I will defend the game when I feel something doesn't sit right with me (like I just did) but I am open to other voices and opinions that can change or alter my thoughts on the game (like just happened) and overall just stay in the shadows while Intercept does Intercept things and the people meet with their positive and negative feedback respectively letting the team know what's working, what's not, and what might need a little tweaking.

...

Yikes. This really is sounding like #ksp2_general language.

Edited April 6 by NexusHelium

[Meecrob]

19 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

I am open to other voices and opinions that can change or alter my thoughts on the game (like just happened)

Glad to hear it! We aren't a bunch of raving lunatics with pitchforks and torches even though it seems like it at times...we just want a decent KSP2.  I totally agree that at times, the whining can be a bit much, but its a symptom of players feeling like their concerns are falling on deaf ears. *Cough cough* Community Managers, it would go a long way to hint at what might be coming. Like not a full update or anything just" oh, I hear they might be working on this...no promises, just testing, but the are considering it"

Communication is easy. I think you guys think we want like a proper update as if we are Take Two shareholders wondering why we are losing money, when all we want is to not feel like some red-headed step child compared to dischord and reddit, etc.

Also @Dakota I repeatedly call you out to just deal with me square and you won't even give me the courtesy of a reply saying "Aplogies, but I'm swamped with work, I'll reply when I get a chance" but no, you reply to other people who posted thoughts after I posted mine. I've been waiting patiently, knowing you are swamped and Mike is just getting back, so there is gonna be a handoff time...All I get from you is claims you always deal with me square, then radio silence. As I said in another thread I can be the biggest pain in your side or a model member of the community, its your choice whether you want to act like a child or an adult about this. All I ask is for some common decency and courtesy. You are a community Manager, I am a member of the Community. Manage me, don't ignore me because you don't want to deal with me. I don't like saying what I'm about to say, but I'm 39 and I've already had 3 careers. I've been around the block and I can tell you that RESPECT gets you places in life, ghosting me gets you right on my crap list. Again, ball is in your court. Are you gonna treat me like an adult or a child?

Have a great night, I hope you guys are getting caught up. I appreciate what you do around here even though it probably doesn't seem like it, keep up the good work! You impressed me by keeping your cool when you were the only hand on deck, Dakota. I don't hate you. We just have a misunderstanding here. I'll go away almost instantly as soon as you treat me with courtesty, and I will treat you the same way in kind, deal? I hope so, I really don't like fighting with you. We are both here cuz we love this game.

Edited April 6 by Meecrob

[stephensmat]

3 hours ago, Dakota said:

But keep telling us what you want - what you want to know about, who from, in what form, etc. It really helps

I'm a patient man on almost every topic, but there is one thing about this game I'm itching to find out ASAP:

Refuelling Stations or parts, for off-Kerbin. Should we expect it in 'Colonies', or 'Exploration'?

[Alpha_star]

Well do we have any plans for ring shadows? Would be really fun and interesting to have in the game.

[The Aziz]

48 minutes ago, Alpha_star said:

Well do we have any plans for ring shadows? Would be really fun and interesting to have in the game.

There were plans

 

[Alpha_star]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

There were plans

 

Great, can you show me which video or post this image comes from?

[The Aziz]

 

 

[Scarecrow71]

9 hours ago, Dakota said:

But keep telling us what you want - what you want to know about, who from, in what form, etc.

We have been, Dakota.  For more than a year now, we've been asking for more information on the development of KSP2.  We have entire threads dedicated to asking why you aren't giving us more communication, or why you aren't sharing where you're at with development, or why there are delays in dropping news.  Heck, we've asked why we aren't getting Upnates any longer.  We want to know why we haven't gotten any more AMA's after the first several went really well.  We are stunned about the haphazard dropping of KERBs, to include removing items from them, as well as them going monthly now.

What else exactly have we not told you are you looking for here?

[steveman0]

14 hours ago, Icegrx said:

From my understanding CommNet is omitted in KSP2 as a decision to make the game more approachable.

I think a simple option to enable commNet or disable it would solve the approachable issue, but they say it’s not a current priority. 

it very well could be a performance thing buried under the veil of “easier for new players” but I don’t think we will ever know the answer to that unless they change their mind on the priority thing. 

I wish I could recall where I saw the discussion from Nate on this topic, but I think there was a very important element of it that most overlooked or didn't understand was being said between the lines. The aspect of approachability as I understood it had a lot to do with the fact the game does not provide a good user interface rendering of the range of current communications.

You can't even tell where in the system is not currently covered  by the existing simplistic model of comms by fixed unoccluded distance from antennas. If your craft wanders outside of that range and you can lose control, it can be reasonably inferred that you don't have a satellite in range, but even this is only reactionary to potentially losing a craft to a disasterous loss of control. Without a way to see your communications coverage, it's not a great player experience to have craft lost to communications loss.

Adding occlusion to the mix would only make it that much harder to plan a probe mission or risk an unplanned catastrophic loss. Once we have a good way to visualize safe regions of space where we can communicate and perhaps a great tutorial teaching of the dangers of communications black out, there will be a great opportunity not just to restore the gameplay elements this provides, but also teach new players about this aspect of space travel.

My impression from the discussion is that doing this all well will require enough work that they just don't have time to devote to it now.

TLDR: approachable != easy. Not including commnet yet seems less about making the game easier than it is about first providing the tools necessary to tackle the challenges presented.

Edited April 6 by steveman0
Tldr

[MARL_Mk1]

19 hours ago, Icegrx said:

From my understanding CommNet is omitted in KSP2 as a decision to make the game more approachable.

So they have actively lied when they stated that KSP2 was "KSP1 and then something else", or when they said that they would "never sacrifice difficulty". It is true that the game is acquiring a childish aura.

I know it isn't a big issue for me as it'll be back in a modded fashion with better quality than the original dev team could ever achieve, but we are stepping onto the land of broken promises and lies and it's been barely a year and a couple months ever since they released their trainwreck of release build.

Also, current state of the game is what should've been released on Feb 2023. 

If dissapointment was measured on a scale, My current attitude towards the game on it's current state stands at:

JUST SAD |- - - - - - - - -- - - - -NEUTRAL- - - - - - - - - - - - - -| OPTIMISTIC

Edited April 6 by MARL_Mk1

[Spicat]

I just want to recite Nate answer about commnet even if it's very off topic because some people seems to place this feature above anything else, even new features:

They never said commnet was not in the game (at least the more complex one) because they want to make the game "easier" or something like that. They just don't give this feature the highest priority and it's more at the bottom of their list.

So @steveman0 is right there.

 

And for those that really can't wait and find this feature really important, there is a mod:

 

Edited April 6 by Spicat