Some Improvements on the Way

[MechBFP]

14 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

As I was saying, some people really like to assume things, and assume their assumptions are right. This forum still hosts the community of a whole another game, for example, and they're just as free to roam around threads and make their opinions know. Now, that some people would prey on others to sell their snake oil and divinations of some magical event allowing KSP2 to continue, and I'm sure as hell would laud a rushed 1.0 as the proof of them being right, is really funny to watch.

Hopefully we'll get concrete news tomorrow, which is personally why I still bother with this side of the forum... that and the people spreading borderline misinformation based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Funny how you are worried about "borderline misinformation" (whatever that is supposed to mean? Just information I guess?) when your post contains actual misinformation that it would require "magic" for KSP2 to continue.

[pandaman]

18 hours ago, turnerjack698 said:

Firing every single person who has been working on Ksp 2 for the past five years is a pretty clear move. That was corpo speak for "We'll do maybe one bugfix and leave the ip to rot."

That is unless they didn't actually fire everyone, just told them they were closing the office and  everyone is at risk, even if they know who they want to keep there could be legal reasons for that approach.  Or perhaps they re-hired those on the team they wanted to keep (possibly with re-negoiated contracts).

I wouldn't be too surprised if they do announce officially that work is continuing that there are several familiar faces present.

This doesn't rule out complete closure of course, but it is a possibility.

[PDCWolf]

47 minutes ago, pandaman said:

That is unless they didn't actually fire everyone, just told them they were closing the office and  everyone is at risk, even if they know who they want to keep there could be legal reasons for that approach.  Or perhaps they re-hired those on the team they wanted to keep (possibly with re-negoiated contracts).

I wouldn't be too surprised if they do announce officially that work is continuing that there are several familiar faces present.

This doesn't rule out complete closure of course, but it is a possibility.

Which sounds nothing like what they did back to Star Theory. Remember, if it was that, we already know what it looks like.

The fact they got offered re-hiring was communicated instantly, and so was that another studio was to continue the game's development. They also got a message warning of this with a lot of time, they were not gagged and were able to talk right then and there.

It's a totally different news that we got now, they did not communicate anything similar. "We're firing people and closing projects."

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

Funny how you are worried about "borderline misinformation" (whatever that is supposed to mean? Just information I guess?) when your post contains actual misinformation that it would require "magic" for KSP2 to continue.

Read above. People really like to not look back it seems.

Edited May 5 by PDCWolf

[MechBFP]

25 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Read above. People really like to not look back it seems.

Tell me again what that has to do with magic?

[PDCWolf]

16 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Tell me again what that has to do with magic?

Well, magic is the only argument given so far for there being a continuation of KSP2's development.

We already know how T2 does things when they take product from studio A to give it to studio B, what happens when they want to rehire people, what it looks like when they actually ensure the continuation of a project, when they warn employees and the public that such a thing is going to happen... Because they already did back in 2020, so we know and have an actual example of how it works and what language they use.

Meanwhile, what we know from their mouth is that T2 is now executing "a cost cutting program" by "rationalizing our pipeline" via "firing 5% of staff and dropping several projects" "reducing the need for further hiring", and that "Private Division will continue to support the game" [source for all quotes] and let me remind you PD is a publisher, with zero development experience or developer staff. So please measure your hopium twice before turning a misinformation accusation on me.

One thing is hoping something happens, the other is reading what's actually happened and using two neurons to conclude the obvious.

Edited May 5 by PDCWolf

[pandaman]

17 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Which sounds nothing like what they did back to Star Theory. Remember, if it was that, we already know what it looks like.

The fact they got offered re-hiring was communicated instantly, and so was that another studio was to continue the game's development. They also got a message warning of this with a lot of time, they were not gagged and were able to talk right then and there.

It's a total different news, they did not communicate anything similar.

Read above. People really like to not look back it seems.

Yes, though one difference is that ST were a contractor, and IG are a subsidiary.  Which could mean differences in what they can and cannot do and say as it affects their own direct employees,  and they may well need to have had individual discussions with each before they can make public  comments.  And, we don't know what talks went on behind the scenes before the actual ST closure announcement.  As far as I know they haven't actually said that it is dead, and there do seem to be hints of a continuation.

Not saying I think you are wrong, or clinging on to hope (actually I have very little),  just considering possibilities. 

It would seem logical that there is a reason for the lack of an official statement after these few days.  If it was done, dusted and closed and all staff taken off the project (even if reallocated to other games) then a simple "Sorry everybody, but we can confirm that development on KSP2 has permanently stopped" type statement would have been made.

[PDCWolf]

45 minutes ago, pandaman said:

It would seem logical that there is a reason for the lack of an official statement after these few days.  If it was done, dusted and closed and all staff taken off the project (even if reallocated to other games) then a simple "Sorry everybody, but we can confirm that development on KSP2 has permanently stopped" type statement would have been made.

There will not be an outright cancellation, as that entitles every steam customer to an automatic refund. This is why the "call whatever they have in store 1.0 and leave" is the most probable outcome.

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

as that entitles every steam customer to an automatic refund.

Dumb question, but... Why? 

[MechBFP]

Speaking of wishful thinking… 

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Dumb question, but... Why? 

2 hours ago, MechBFP said:

Speaking of wishful thinking… 

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/earlyaccess

As per steam rules of Early Access.

Quote

Q: What happens if I don't complete my Early Access game?

A: Sometimes things don't work out as you planned, and you may need to discontinue development of your Early Access game before you are ready for a V1.0 release. If this happens, you can contact Valve to figure out the next steps. There are two options:

If your Early Access game is playable and well received, but you're unable to develop it to the point where you feel it warrants a full V1.0 release, then we can keep your game on the Store, but otherwise remove it from Early Access. This will remove the Early Access tag and Early Access Q&A displayed on your game’s Store Page, but not start the launch visibility that comes with definitively releasing your game out of Early Access. This would be a permanent change; we aren’t able to reenable Early Access again later, so please consider this option carefully before contacting us with the details. In this case, you should let your community know about your decision to leave Early Access via a forum post or news event.

Alternatively, we can remove your Early Access game from Steam. Before reaching out, you should read about the process of removing a game from Steam and take a moment to carefully consider whether or not pulling your game down is actually the right choice. Are you acting based on an emotional response to negative feedback, or is retiring your game the appropriate next step? We take our relationship with customers seriously, so if you choose to cancel development of a game and retire it from the store, we will not republish it again later and we may offer refunds to any users who purchased it. Treating customers fairly is the most important thing to us.

I don't think the process of removing the game and entitling people to automatic steam refunds is the one they'll take.

[cocoscacao]

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

PD is a publisher,

Second dumb question, they are therefore responsible for distributing the game?

I don't pay much attention to these differences. I am reading Steam link you provided, and all of it seems very lax, giving plenty of room for uncertainty (removal procedure)... which in turn gives a lot of loopholes for a nice escape hatch. 

[PDCWolf]

Just now, cocoscacao said:

Second dumb question, they are therefore responsible for distributing the game?

I don't pay much attention to these differences. I am reading Steam link you provided, and all of it seems very lax, giving plenty of room for uncertainty (removal procedure)... which in turn gives a lot of loopholes for a nice escape hatch. 

I'm not saying they don't have outs, I'm saying people shouldn't expect a "game cancelled" announcement because that's exactly the one thing that can entitle people to refunds, specially when, as you say, they have many escapes to avoid that route.

"PD is a publisher" is my way of saying "they don't have developers, they don't develop, they've never developed anything." Their mission is listed as "a developer-focused publisher that empowers studios to develop the games that they are passionate about creating, while providing the support that they need to make their titles critically and commercially successful on a global scale." and by their history I'm 99% sure that yes, their only job is to search for indies that might turn into high earning gems if provided with proper funding and backing.

 

[cocoscacao]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I'm not saying they don't have outs, I'm saying people shouldn't expect a "game cancelled" announcement because that's exactly the one thing that can entitle people to refunds, specially when, as you say, they have many escapes to avoid that route.

See, this is the part I don't fully (or at all) understand. Don't waste your time explaining it to me, if you know better. Judging by the description of EA, you (as a developer for example) can say that you won't continue development, because you ran out of toilet paper in the office... without any negative effect.

Customer buys EA for whatever it is at that moment, and that decision is solely on him/her. 

Sounds more like "please be a nice and honest dev" rather than "if you don't meet these very specific conditions, you're screwed". 

[gfdgfherytrey]

top  5 people who stood in front of what the destroyed 

1. ion mn

2. nate simpionsioniam

3. pvriate divisionsuin

[cocoscacao]

15 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

they have many escapes to avoid that route

To sum up my point more clearly, sounds like they don't have to take any route to avoid potential legal consequences. 

[PDCWolf]

  

3 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

See, this is the part I don't fully (or at all) understand. Don't waste your time explaining it to me, if you know better. Judging by the description of EA, you (as a developer for example) can say that you won't continue development, because you ran out of toilet paper in the office... without any negative effect.

Customer buys EA for whatever it is at that moment, and that decision is solely on him/her. 

Sounds more like "please be a nice and honest dev" rather than "if you don't meet these very specific conditions, you're screwed". 

The reality is that no one ever buys EAs for what they are at the moment, and it's even against guidelines to fill your page with promises (is a roadmap a promise?), so both sides walk fine lines.

The automatic refund clause applies when you decide you'll be delisting your Early Access game. There's a difference between calling it done and never touching it again, where it effectively is like you say (no consecuences for the dev), versus actually decided there's no game anymore and taking the ball home. This is, again, why the later is definitely the most likely outcome.

Just now, cocoscacao said:

To sum up my point more clearly, sounds like they don't have to take any route to avoid potential legal consequences. 

Well, all they have to do is... not start a real cancellation process, just bump the version to 1.0 and that's it. My hypothesis they'll be releasing whatever work is done until now is what's really wishful thinking.

[herbal space program]

Several folks seem to regard the mass layoff at IG as a sure sign that this is the end, but I can imagine at least one plausible scenario where  they might can  most or even all of the people currently working on the game and still not put a stake through its heart.  As we have all been complaining for months, the big problem with KSP2 as it is now is that there are foundational issues in the basic game engine that moot all the fancy window dressing or any new features they may try to implement on top of this inadequate base. If you extend the analogy of the game as a building, the current IG team has plumbers, electricians,  HVAC techs, drywallers,  and floor layers all trying to do their bit on top of a foundation and framing that are fundamentally not fit for purpose and will never work the way they are now. What are you going to do if you are in charge of that whole job?  Yes, you may want to just walk away and take your losses, but even if you mean to soldier on, there is no point in continuing to pay all those people who are finishing interiors that will likely have to be ripped out to fix all  the serious issues with the foundation. Instead, you will take what you have now and put it in the hands of a small group of people who specialize in fixing those foundation problems, and wait until they have done their job before bringing any of the other contractors back on board.  That way you can keep your burn rate to a minimum while you fix the problems that moot all the other work anybody else might do. Not saying I think that's what will actually happen, just saying that even if they have no intention of abandoning KSP2 entirely, there is no point in them continuing to pay all these people who both can't do anything to fix it and can't meaningfully do their parts until it is in fact fixed.

[PDCWolf]

Just now, herbal space program said:

Several folks seem to regard the mass layoff at IG as a sure sign that this is the end, but I can imagine at least one plausible scenario where  they might can  most or even all of the people currently working on the game and still not put a stake through its heart.  As we have all been complaining for months, the big problem with KSP2 as it is now is that there are foundational issues in the basic game engine that moot all the fancy window dressing or any new features they may try to implement on top of this inadequate base. If you extend the analogy of the game as a building, the current IG team has plumbers, electricians,  HVAC techs, drywallers,  and floor layers all trying to do their bit on top of a foundation and framing that are fundamentally not fit for purpose and will never work the way they are now. What are you going to do if you are in charge of that whole job?  Yes, you may want to just walk away and take your losses, but even if you mean to soldier on, there is no point in continuing to pay all those people who are finishing interiors that will likely have to be ripped out to fix all  the serious issues with the foundation. Instead, you will take what you have now and put it in the hands of a small group of people who specialize in fixing those foundation problems, and wait until they have done their job before bringing any of the other contractors back on board.  That way you can keep your burn rate to a minimum while you fix the problems that moot all the other work anybody else might do. Not saying I think that's what will actually happen, just saying that even if they have no intention of abandoning KSP2 entirely, there is no point in them continuing to pay all these people who both can't do anything to fix it and can't meaningfully do their parts until it is in fact fixed.

Do you somehow think it's economically sound to hire "foundation engineers" to do long haul work under the hood they can't even show for marketing and only serves to support features they won't develop?

 

[herbal space program]

Not going to engage with you. There is clearly no point.

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

The reality is that no one ever buys EAs for what they are at the moment

I do.

And I bet a lot of the rest of us will now going forward.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, Superfluous J said:

I do.

And I bet a lot of the rest of us will now going forward.

That begs the question... did you really think KSP at release was worth what you paid for it? Of course, a lot of that depends on what value $50 hold for you, but still... And I say this having bought on release day and refunded immediately (only to rebuy later as the regional got even more favorable, I do own the game).

[cocoscacao]

6 hours ago, herbal space program said:

As we have all been complaining for months, the big problem with KSP2 as it is now is that there are foundational issues in the basic game engine that moot all the fancy window dressing or any new features they may try to implement on top of this inadequate base

Isn't that even worse? I was very hopeful for the game, thinking that many bugs are a product of something else. Until FS came in where foundational issues came into focus. This is the tricky part of this game. If it took em 4 years for the makeup, how much do you think it would have taken them for hardcore problems?

It's like a movie-set house. A painted front with nothing in the back. 

Edited May 6 by cocoscacao

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

did you really think KSP at release was worth what you paid for it?

No.

It was worth it TO ME when I paid for it though, which was after For Science! came out.

I should add, when KSP2 was originally released, I took a week off work not specifically just to play it, but playing it a lot was in the plans. When the game came out and the streamer party they had showed that the game was really truly not what I was hoping for, I decided to not just not give KSP2 my $50 but also not give it the time THAT I HAD SPECIFICALLY SET ASIDE FOR IT.

Edited May 6 by Superfluous J

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

did you really think KSP at release was worth what you paid for it?

Probably not. Though it was mostly because of performance issues and a payload of bugs that came with it, not lack of content, that I was fine with.

I'm now at 170h in, I'd say half of it happened after FS, so I played it quite a lot, and enjoyed most of it. But would I recommend the game to anyone in its current state? Probably not. But I would also not say "don't buy it, avoid like fire" because it's not a crumbled ball of misery.

[AtomicTech]

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

But I would also not say "don't buy it, avoid like fire" because it's not a crumbled ball of misery.

I'd say "don't but it, avoid it like fire" because it's just a meh game and your money is much better spent on KSP and others.