R-T-B Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) On 6/4/2024 at 5:12 AM, Lisias said: That's the drill: I don't find any. It goes beyond just looking for it. His moderation policy is extremely biased towards one side. I'll let you guess which one. Oh, and he blocks anyone he has a social dispute with from posting. This goes as far as the official apple account most recently. Totally "free speech." I can't believe anyone seriously thinks anything of him in this community. Edited June 14 by R-T-B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 4 minutes ago, R-T-B said: It goes beyond just looking for it. His moderation policy is extremely biased towards one side. I'll let you guess which one. Oh, and he blocks anyone he has a social dispute with from posting. This goes as far as the official apple account most recently. Totally "free speech." Well, I can say that I felt exactly this way before him. So, worst case scenario, Twitter remains the same - the only change was the focus of the bias. 5 minutes ago, R-T-B said: I can't believe anyone seriously thinks anything of him in this community. You are being extremely naive now. Just see how much attention the last Starship flight got in the media, and you will see that he have a lot of supporters, including here. For the best, and for the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-T-B Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lisias said: Well, I can say that I felt exactly this way before him. I can't. Before there was a coded rule system and teams to interpret it, now its the whims of a rich guy. 3 hours ago, Lisias said: You are being extremely naive now. Just see how much attention the last Starship flight got in the media, and you will see that he have a lot of supporters, including here. I credit the engineers. Elon is an investor, and he does well when he lets the people who know what they are doing do their thing, and he just... invests. What I find amazing is that anyone still thinks he's stable after his recent antics. He's not. To suggest he should lead KSP2 is mind boggling. Edited June 14 by R-T-B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, R-T-B said: I can't. Before there was a coded rule system and teams to interpret it, now its the whims of a rich guy. Well, so we will need to agree on disagree. 1 hour ago, R-T-B said: I credit the engineers. Elon is an investor, and he does well when he lets the people who know what they are doing do their thing, and he just... invests. You know, Musk is not known for hiring bad engineers - it's the other way around, he fires them mercilessly if he thinks they are not up to the task. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/ I think your argument is risking not working exactly how you intended. I'm not implying it is working like I would like neither - Musk is ruthless, after all. 1 hour ago, R-T-B said: What I find amazing is that anyone still thinks he's stable after his recent antics. He's not. To suggest he should lead KSP2 is mind boggling. By Kraken's sake, are you reading this thread? No one is asking him to lead the project, but to fund it! From a personal point of view, I think that an ideal person for the job would be John Carmack. Edited June 14 by Lisias My God! It's full of tyops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacke Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 I'm not going to back any of this up with quotes. Most of it should be backed up by a search of honest sources. And as with the example of Twitter, will become more obvious in the future. 4 minutes ago, Lisias said: You know, Musk is not known to hire bad engineers - it's the other way around, he fires them mercilessly if he things they are not up to the task. Musk's primary true skills are being good at Boardroom/Executive politics, manipulation, and selling vapourware. As evident by the recent Telsa shareholder vote to give him a US $45 billion bonus. That one is going to lead to so much buyers' regret and soon I think. Musk every now and then has a good idea. But he also thinks he's way more smarter than he is. He use to say this more than mean it, but I think recently he's become believing his own legends. SpaceX used to have staff with the greatest skill in deflecting Musk from making bad decisions. But like most of the good engineers, most of that staff is now gone. Musk fires anyone mercilessly if they become a problem to Musk. Like asking for proper treatment of staff without racism or sexism. Or wanting to not be exposed to a deadly pandemic when Musk wanted them to work in his facilities despite the risk, despite State regulations. 4 minutes ago, Lisias said: By Kraken's sake, are you reading this thread? No one is asking him to lead the project, but to fund it! A project can't just get Musk's funding. He really thinks he knows best. He will fiddle. And he will make a mess of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jacke said: I'm not going to back any of this up with quotes. Most of it should be backed up by a search of honest sources. And as with the example of Twitter, will become more obvious in the future. You are judging him by what you think he should had did with Twitter, not by what he wants to do with it. For starters - the BoD sold Twitter to Musk. All of these problems would not be happening if they just had decided to do not sell Twitter, or to sell it to someone else. But yet, they sold it to Musk. Had you asked why? They were going to get bankrupt soon, and they didn't wanted to be responsible for the bankruptcy - that's why. They didn't found any other idiot investor to buy it at that price. And why Musk bought it? Good question, only him can answer it. But he had a plan, and if the sources I had read were right, this plan is called X-Application (the everything app). I nurture no illusions for the future of Twitter X as we know it today - it will be dismembered or absorbed. Point. Right now, I'm enjoying it the way I can for the time it's possible. And since this thing would be probably dead anyway by this time without Musk, what the hell - so be it. 4 hours ago, Jacke said: Musk's primary true skills are being good at Boardroom/Executive politics, manipulation, and selling vapourware. As evident by the recent Telsa shareholder vote to give him a US $45 billion bonus. That one is going to lead to so much buyers' regret and soon I think. Again, you are judging him by what you think he should be doing, and not by his objectives. Tesla's finality was to fund Space X. Point. Musk have no other plans from it than to fund Space X and he's being pretty consistent with this. Again, all the board shareholders** had to do is to deny the bonus - but they granted it. Good for Musk, he got what he wanted. Again. If this will be good for Tesla's shareholders, time will tell - but be absolutely sure about one thing: they will get what they deserve. I hope they deserve better, for their own sake. ** the voting was made by the shareholders, not the board of directors. My bad. Fixed. 4 hours ago, Jacke said: SpaceX used to have staff with the greatest skill in deflecting Musk from making bad decisions. But like most of the good engineers, most of that staff is now gone. Musk fires anyone mercilessly if they become a problem to Musk. Like asking for proper treatment of staff without racism or sexism. Or wanting to not be exposed to a deadly pandemic when Musk wanted them to work in his facilities despite the risk, despite State regulations. You are forgetting one very important point: without Space X, we would not have Starlink. And without Starlink, USA would be in a very, very dire strait facing the challenges USA's putting themselves on (like some events happening right now on Ukraine). Do you really think the Pentagon NASA is betting hard on Space X because they found Spaceship cool? Musk is not alone on this. He have powerful people backing him. Looking on the convoluted development of Boeing's Starliner, I think the reasons are clear by now. Welcome to astropolitics - you are going to like it as much as you like geopolitics. 4 hours ago, Jacke said: A project can't just get Musk's funding. He really thinks he knows best. He will fiddle. And he will make a mess of things. Perhaps. But until the moment, he managed to keep some dead corpses moving, so it would still be better than what we have now. I said above Musk is ruthless. You replied saying he's merciless. We are both right on this one for sure. If Musk would fund KSP, he would do it because he found a way to use it for something, and not because he's nice. But yet, where KSP is going right now anyway? Edited June 14 by Lisias Yeah, tyops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanamonde Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Some comments removed. Political arguments make enemies out of friends and never end well. Please remember that's why the subject has been ruled off-limits for this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BechMeister Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 22 hours ago, Jacke said: SpaceX used to have staff with the greatest skill in deflecting Musk from making bad decisions. But like most of the good engineers, most of that staff is now gone. Musk fires anyone mercilessly if they become a problem to Musk. Like asking for proper treatment of staff without racism or sexism. Or wanting to not be exposed to a deadly pandemic when Musk wanted them to work in his facilities despite the risk, despite State regulations. This is like the path of any dictator too - right before the fall.. they "fire" all who challenge them.. and then when then they are are surrounded by "yes-men" they think they can invade the 2nd largest European nation and take it in 2 weeks.. but end up screwing the nations economy and get interlocked in a 3+ year war of attrition... I have always wondered about Musk.. how much he seems to do. Because depinding on who you listen to he is more of an annoyance to the development of the company. Others say that he has some knowlegde about programing and engineering makes him able to make discisions on the spot.. thus propelling the project faster than any economist could ever do. But then.. i heard the only reason the falcon heavy was not cancled because "starship would be ready within a year" was some one at the board having the balls to say "no Elon.. people have already paid for flights on the damn thing" Idk. I have been more and more ambivilent about Space X and Musk. Is he a quicky aspergers who say dumb excrements and gets missunderstood? Or is he as cold and detached from real life as some claims.. I can try come with an example.. as a scandinavian his views on unions are deeply flawed. But when he says "If we need unions we have failed as a company" i guess you can see that as blind naivity. Like he believes that he can control weather his employees are being treated well. Even though there is multiple people between him and his workers.. and he cant guarentee they will treat them well. Which is what the unions and agreements are for. Is he just naive here? Or is he cold and calculated and see humans more as a resource than people... Sorry.. bit of a tangent. But it is interesting to see how he has gone from the best thing since sliced bread back in 2011.. to now. 22 hours ago, Jacke said: Musk's primary true skills are being good at Boardroom/Executive politics, manipulation, and selling vapourware. As evident by the recent Telsa shareholder vote to give him a US $45 billion bonus. That one is going to lead to so much buyers' regret and soon I think. Didnt the Norwegian Oil Fund block this raise again? Edited June 15 by BechMeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacke Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 9 minutes ago, BechMeister said: Is he just naive here? Or is he cold and calculated and see humans more as a resource than people... Sorry.. bit of a tangent. But it is interesting to see how he has gone from the best thing since sliced bread back in 2011.. to now. Musk has always been a manipulating idiot who's failed upwards getting a bigger pile of cash. He's never been actually good, just good at corporate manipulation and control and selling himself as doing things he never did. He's always bought into corporations and manipulated his way to control--sometimes failing and getting fired. Along the way, Musk gathered a cult following who just think he's the best thing since sliced bread. He may have slowly grown to believe his own propaganda, maybe. Careful examination of Musk has always shown this. However, when he played silly buggers with Twitter and got caught in a deal to buy it--which the Twitter Board held him to--Musk got forced to buy Twitter. And now has demonstrated no matter how bad Twitter was before Musk, it was a paradise compared to how it is now. Showing how bad his decisions are about an actual tech company has really shown to more that Musk isn't a genius but an idiot. But I think it's likely his long pile of promises for Tesla will be what sinks him. It will eventually become like Enron but even bigger. How long this will take to play out and how is unknown. But despite Musk convincing first his tame Tesla Board of Directors and then the Shareholders, there's no true justification for him being paid US $45 billion for what he has done. That's a massive share of the profit for every vehicle that Tesla has sold. When its latest vehicle, the Cybertruck, is a horrible design--demanded by Musk--and a complete failure. 9 minutes ago, BechMeister said: Didnt the Norwegian Oil Fund block this raise again? They and other sane investors likely voted against Musk's bonus. But he apparently convinced enough of the Shareholders to get that past. There was a "fear" that Musk would quit as CEO if he didn't get his massive bonus. There's some crazy talk about Musk being vital for the success of Tesla. HOW?!? He's the one destroying it. And the value of Tesla Stock went up after the vote was announced. Stock Market Investors can be quite stupid in the short run. However, when real sales and finance figures come out and it's more and rising failure, things will get rebalanced. When this will catch up to Musk, not sure. But I think it will eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BechMeister Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, Jacke said: There's some crazy talk about Musk being vital for the success of Tesla. HOW?!? He's the one destroying it. I can see them believing that.. I mean we cant deny that Tesla pre Elon was not that competitive.. so in a sense he did do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokerCraft Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 55 minutes ago, BechMeister said: I can see them believing that.. I mean we cant deny that Tesla pre Elon was not that competitive.. so in a sense he did do something. Tesla pre Elon, was when again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BechMeister Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 2 hours ago, SmokerCraft said: Tesla pre Elon, was when again? Albeit a very short time - it was 2003. But i have always heard that Tesla did not do very well until Musk came into the picture. I can only go from what I've heard people say.. i was not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miklkit Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 The Tesla sports car Musk fired into space is a pre Musk Tesla. He bought into the company and then ousted the founders and kicked them out. Lots of lawsuits. The Cybertruck is a disaster. One is not allowed to sell it before one has owned it for at least one year. The penalty is a $50,000 lawsuit. The Cybertruck's price is now in free fall and many companies such as CarMax are refusing to buy them at all. One youtuber just managed to get rid of his by trading it in and hoping he does not get sued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Musk just sued people he laid off because they got too much x.com stock when the laid them off, and now he wants the value of it (from back then) back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 3 hours ago, miklkit said: The Tesla sports car Musk fired into space is a pre Musk Tesla. He bought into the company and then ousted the founders and kicked them out. Lots of lawsuits. The Cybertruck is a disaster. One is not allowed to sell it before one has owned it for at least one year. The penalty is a $50,000 lawsuit. The Cybertruck's price is now in free fall and many companies such as CarMax are refusing to buy them at all. One youtuber just managed to get rid of his by trading it in and hoping he does not get sued. Fun fact... A popular influencer in Brazil bought one, and it's using it on the city's suburbs! https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2024/06/13/influenciador-de-sp-que-comprou-tesla-cybertruck-carro-indestrutivel-de-elon-musk-tem-seguranca-para-veiculo-e-pretende-fazer-seguro.ghtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K^2 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 5 hours ago, miklkit said: The Tesla sports car Musk fired into space is a pre Musk Tesla. He bought into the company and then ousted the founders and kicked them out. Lots of lawsuits. The Cybertruck is a disaster. One is not allowed to sell it before one has owned it for at least one year. The penalty is a $50,000 lawsuit. The Cybertruck's price is now in free fall and many companies such as CarMax are refusing to buy them at all. One youtuber just managed to get rid of his by trading it in and hoping he does not get sued. There's been a wonderful graphic on the subject making rounds on the socials. In the market that's going up and up, Tesla is one of the few that are doing worse, and a lot of it is other car manufacturers eating into what used to be Tesla's niche with better offerings. Northern CA tends to lead a lot of the trends, and Model S has been overtaken by Taycan here already, with electric Macan starting to eat into the X market. It sounds like full electric 911 and Corvette E Ray is also going to make the market before Tesla releases a long-promised Roadster overhaul, which is likely to eat into the Model S market as well, simply because there was not another alternative in that price range previously. Of course, luxury market's not the main profit for the company. Tesla's holding a lot better in the 3/Y market, but the lead is decreasing rapidly. I am seeing a lot more Mach E showing up, suggesting it's probably eating into the Y market quite a bit, which would explain the decline of the popularity. And while Bolt and Leaf aren't exactly competing in the same niche as Model 3, they are effectively providing a cheaper alternative. Which is what was promised, but never delivered with 3. What Tesla needed was an update on their aging offerings which could continue to compete with the evolving market. What they dumped the resources into instead has been the Cybertruck. And while I'm seeing more of these eyesores on the streets than I'd like to, it's not even a competition with Rivian trucks which are absolutely everywhere. I think I'm seeing more Ford Lightnings than Cybertrucks, tbh. But I don't have concrete numbers for these, so take that with a grain of salt. The outcome is absolutely predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenartia Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 3 hours ago, Lisias said: Fun fact... A popular influencer in Brazil bought one, and it's using it on the city's suburbs! https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2024/06/13/influenciador-de-sp-que-comprou-tesla-cybertruck-carro-indestrutivel-de-elon-musk-tem-seguranca-para-veiculo-e-pretende-fazer-seguro.ghtml Brazil??? That thing's gonna give its owner tetanus by Halloween. It'll be a bigger rustbucket than a redneck's yard car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Just now, Grenartia said: Brazil??? That thing's gonna give its owner tetanus by Halloween. It'll be a bigger rustbucket than a redneck's yard car. Perhaps not. There's a bunch of DeLorean DMC-12 in Brazil, and they are doing fine as long you properly maintain it. Steel rusting is a maintenance problem. Steel rusts, even the Carbon Steel. Heck, even Stainless Steel rusts if you abuse the material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenartia Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 17 minutes ago, Lisias said: Perhaps not. There's a bunch of DeLorean DMC-12 in Brazil, and they are doing fine as long you properly maintain it. Steel rusting is a maintenance problem. Steel rusts, even the Carbon Steel. Heck, even Stainless Steel rusts if you abuse the material. Its also a material problem. IIRC, the particular alloy of stainless Cybertruck uses is more prone to rusting than the one the DeLorean uses. And there are already widespread reports of Cybertruck owners here in the states experiencing rust on their trucks, within less than a month of taking ownership. At a certain point, its not an issue of bad maintenance, and more an issue of terrible choices by the manufacturer. And we can squarely place all of Cybertruck's defects at Elon's feet, because he dictated its 'style' (or lack thereof, in this case). He's the one that wanted it to have the same silhouette as Lara Croft lying down. He's the one that wanted it to be super shiny, no matter what (even if that required using an objectively bad alloy thats more prone to rusting in automotive applications). He's all flash, no quality. And that is why, getting back on topic, he would be bad as an owner of the KSP IP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 23 minutes ago, Grenartia said: Its also a material problem. IIRC, the particular alloy of stainless Cybertruck uses is more prone to rusting than the one the DeLorean uses. And there are already widespread reports of Cybertruck owners here in the states experiencing rust on their trucks, within less than a month of taking ownership. At a certain point, its not an issue of bad maintenance, and more an issue of terrible choices by the manufacturer. It's never a material problem. Or you are using it improperly, or you are maintaining it improperly. Or you just shouldn't be using it at all. What you are describing sounds like a manufacturing problem that by some reason are not respecting the material constraints. There's a simply marvelous reading about the titanium parts of the SR-71 Blackbird rusting when made in the summer, but the same parts when made in the winter didn't: https://wisconsinmetaltech.com/titanium-and-the-sr-71/ TL;DR: it was the water. On summer, the local Public Administration were using chlorine in the water reservoirs to prevent algae. On the winter, they didn't bothered. And titanium doesn't like chlorine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miklkit Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) https://imgur.com/I7Le1GL Ahem. This the front end of my unrestored 90% original 1967 Ford F250 pickup. It has a stainless steel grill and headlight nacelles and a chrome steel bumper. This is the industry standard, not the Tesla. Also, this can carry the Cybertruck, but the Cybertruck can not carry this. The loss of profitability of Tesla has been predicted as the government programs to boost EVs are ending and there is now competition in the EV market. Edited June 15 by miklkit spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, miklkit said: https://imgur.com/I7Le1GL Ahem. This the front end of my unrestored 90% original 1967 Ford F250 pickup. It has a stainless steel grill and headlight nacelles and a chrome steel bumper. Yes, but... Remove the paint and the primer and let the steel be in direct contact with moisture and oxygen for some months, then come back here with the results. In time, I'm seeing some rust - it's way cheaper to solve this now. Please consider a (proper) paint job as soon as you can afford it. Been there, done that - I used to drive a GM Truck from the 90s to late 2010 - in the Amazon's Rain Forest. Yeah, the same one. Learnt a lot on the process. Edited June 16 by Lisias Adding picture, or it didn't happened ! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miklkit Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 ZOOOOMMM!!! Right over your head! That is a picture of 57 year old STAINLESS STEEL and chrome. Also, that paint is 57 years old too. In the weather all those decades. Where is the rust? A little surface rust is starting to show on the paint. Not the stainless steel. Teslas are rusting out right now today. Please try to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 17 minutes ago, miklkit said: Teslas are rusting out right now today. Please try to keep up. As I said, a manufacturing problem, a maintenance problem or they just shouldn't be using the material as first place. That said, I'm finished with you. I handled the conversation on a polite and respectful way - I'm even tried to advise you about the increasing rust in your truck - these things appears to be slow, but the corrosion happens exponentially. In a way of another, bye kid. Don't speed up your toy, your slim tires weren't made to handle the weight on speeding, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skorj Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 For the rusting cybertrucks, my money would be on bimetalism. Wonder if they cleverly connected the body electrically to something more cathodic. Never understood the irrational fervor around Musk in both directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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