How would Kardashev type 3 civilizations try to communicate intergalactic space?

[farmerben]

It's entirely possible for a Kardeshev type 3 civilization that controls basically one whole galaxy would prioritize a super SETI program.  It could be humans and our robots occupying most of the Milky Way.  Maybe we still have loads of underutilized resources and go into decline anyway.  The idea of colonizing other galaxies seems not just impractical, but unnecessary.  But it would be nice to know if we are alone in the universe or not.

It would take an insane array of lasers to send messages to another galaxy.  Even then the signals take hundreds of millions of years to arrive.  And we're more interested in receiving signals, than in sending them.  There is no reason to assume that a Kardeshev 3 civilization would be visible at intergalactic distances.  But it's possible they want to be.  If so, what messages could they possibly send?

[HebaruSan]

3 minutes ago, farmerben said:

what messages could they possibly send?

"Do this to slow the expansion of the universe in your local group, so we can possibly meet up someday"

[darthgently]

Don't forget to drink your Ovaltine

[kerbiloid]

"We shall bring you true God!"

[PakledHostage]

3 hours ago, darthgently said:

Don't forget to drink your Ovaltine

A crummy commercial? [I went out to face the world again. Wiser.]

[Nuke]

2 tin cans and a lot of string.

[AckSed]

54 minutes ago, Nuke said:

2 tin cans and a lot of string.

With the string being a terawatt laser and the cans a massive telescope.

[kerbiloid]

58 minutes ago, Nuke said:

2 tin cans and a lot of string.

2 minutes ago, AckSed said:

With the string being a terawatt laser and the cans a massive telescope.

Just a string. A superstring.

[magnemoe]

Well an  Kardashev type 3 civilization would be very visible in the first place. 
I also say an galaxy spawning civilization would need faster than light at least communication to stay an civilization if not imagine the drift by many thousands of year communication lag. 
We see the opposite on earth as communication become better and faster. 

[kerbiloid]

The whole Kardashev's classification is a pure Shower Thoughts, based on the early-XX expansion and mid-XX consumption views, like the Dyson sphere is as well.

While iirc Musk has sold even the real estates he had owned, because why occupy the place, when you can easily change your location by plane, and temporarily buy a hotel/mansion to live there.

Edited July 14 by kerbiloid

[farmerben]

Well a Kardeshev 3 civilization has multiple Dyson Spheres and laser highways between certain stars.  Would we be able to detect that?  A small sample of Dyson Spheres could easily be mistaken for more distant galaxies behind the object galaxy.  If the average of the galaxy was redder, we would just assume it is farther away.  Right?

 

I think it was Euclid who wanted to send signals to Mars by shaping Siberian forests into Pythagorean triplet triangles (3-4-5, etc).  But if you arranged stars in triangles it would only be an appropriate signal in two directions polar to the galaxy.  

 

Edited July 15 by farmerben

[darthgently]

1 hour ago, farmerben said:

I think it was Euclid who wanted to send signals to Mars by shaping Siberian forests into Pythagorean triplet triangles (3-4-5, etc).

I'm going to need to see a citation for this one, lol.  

[HebaruSan]

1 hour ago, farmerben said:

I think it was Euclid who wanted to send signals to Mars by shaping Siberian forests into Pythagorean triplet triangles (3-4-5, etc).

3 minutes ago, darthgently said:

I'm going to need to see a citation for this one, lol.  

Gauss (1820s AD), not Euclid (300 BC). Only off by two millennia or so.

[farmerben]

54 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Gauss (1820s AD), not Euclid (300 BC). Only off by two millennia or so.

Lol.  I meant to type Euler and accidentally typed Euclid.  I'll take the correction

[darthgently]

Euclid could signal Mars much more simply by going to the Temple of Aries and burning some incense

[magnemoe]

20 hours ago, farmerben said:

Well a Kardeshev 3 civilization has multiple Dyson Spheres and laser highways between certain stars.  Would we be able to detect that?  A small sample of Dyson Spheres could easily be mistaken for more distant galaxies behind the object galaxy.  If the average of the galaxy was redder, we would just assume it is farther away.  Right?

I think it was Euclid who wanted to send signals to Mars by shaping Siberian forests into Pythagorean triplet triangles (3-4-5, etc).  But if you arranged stars in triangles it would only be an appropriate signal in two directions polar to the galaxy.  

Multiple Dyson Spheres makes it an 2.0-2.1 the way we is 0.6 something. 
An clusters of Dyson Spheres would stand out but I assume you want to expand long before filing ones, its don't cost mush power. 

[magnemoe]

On 7/14/2024 at 5:41 AM, kerbiloid said:

The whole Kardashev's classification is a pure Shower Thoughts, based on the early-XX expansion and mid-XX consumption views, like the Dyson sphere is as well.

While iirc Musk has sold even the real estates he had owned, because why occupy the place, when you can easily change your location by plane, and temporarily buy a hotel/mansion to live there.

Agree but power it both good  to have and an  good metric. Yes population growth is getting negative. So uplift rabbits, they are cute and don't see anything who can go wrong. Cats and dogs worked pretty well after all. 

[darthgently]

26 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Agree but power it both good  to have and an  good metric. Yes population growth is getting negative. So uplift rabbits, they are cute and don't see anything who can go wrong. Cats and dogs worked pretty well after all. 

I vote raccoons.  They have opposable thumbs and more attitude than rabbits

[cubinator]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:38 AM, Nuke said:

2 tin cans and a lot of string.

I think we just solved dark matter.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

On 7/13/2024 at 1:23 PM, magnemoe said:

Well an  Kardashev type 3 civilization would be very visible in the first place. 
I also say an galaxy spawning civilization would need faster than light at least communication to stay an civilization if not imagine the drift by many thousands of year communication lag. 
We see the opposite on earth as communication become better and faster. 

One of the sci fi series I recently finished was about the singularity and the progenitor race coming to clean up the galaxy & try again.

The singularity was viewed as top dangerous bc the shift in thought and merging of billions of sentient minds.. causes cataclysmic upheaval.

Either transcendence, or market collapse due to technical advances.. etc.

One of the underlying themes of the series was intergalactic trade. It is simply a non starter from an industrial standpoint. At this point.. energy / matter conversions & FTL communications are pretty much a given.. it's not equitable.

The only trade was information, luxury goods and tech. I may be missing some things but I found that to be a very interesting point that many sci fi do not really address.

The FTL comment reminded me of something.. wander brain ping.

----

Also,

I think rabbits are the best space explorers for a game. Population spikes can easily justify a couple missions thay are more dangerous than normal.

Edited July 17 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Gargamel]

A type 3 civ wouldn't need a SETI program, as would we would think of it:

A) They're already made up of a number of various races within their own galaxy already, so they would just assume that, on average, each galaxy would have a similar distribution, and they'll get to them when they get to them.   They then progress to B or C. 

B) They're alone, and the distances are too vast to attempt any sort of communication, with any hope of the other party even receiving their message during the existence of the sender's civilization, making the whole idea of attempting to communicate moot.  Even the foot print of their civilization would take so long to travel across intergalactic space, that it would be useless to the "sending" civ. 

C) They can travel over those distances, but cannot communicate over them in a form that is receivable by a random party.   This would then require the establishments of colonies and outposts in other galaxies to coordinate their own local SETI program, and report back. 

So in summary, space is big, and once you reach a galactic scale, it's _very_ difficult to take that next step.  Any SETI program that would exist for these guys would not be even recognizable as a SETI program to us. 

[kerbiloid]

When you have:

• decoded the DNA of your own planet species;
• created and put into exploitation the DNA synthesizers and the incubators to develop a digital DNA model into a living body;
• created thousands of artificially designed species from DNA parts of the rabbit, the chicken, and the bamboo, merged together, and augmented with parts of created from scratch DNA of the unicorn;
• and thus can create any creature you prefer to inhabit your land;

you won't need any local alien lifeform to populate your lovely and balanced paradise, and thus your exobiological studies will be limited with the first several Earth-like exoplanets, or maybe even won't be ever a thing at all.

You may be interested in using of some already existing and ready-to-use exotic species (like those funny speaking bipedes with five-fingered hands from the yellow dwarf system) to populate and decorate some planet (especially since the developed life should be rare in the Universe), but usually you will just ignore the local lifeforms or even sterilize the planet before sending colonists there.

Why need the kangaroo, koala, and other marsupial trash, when you can just populate Australia with rabbits, sheep, dogs, giant frogs, and other normal animals from your land, and are able to create the kangaroo from the rabbits by slightly modifying their DNA? Do you care if the big jumping thing with a bag is kangaroo or rabbit? Just call it kangarabbit. Or a swinopotamus for an artificial behemoth herded for lard.

All of that is being done right now, and doesn't require space travels, antigravity, teleports, or fusion reactors.
This means that a custom body production would be achieved long before the regular interstellar travels and building of galactic empires.

This means that unlikely the interstellar civilisation can have any biology but bioengineering, or be interested in other biological species themselves.

At the same time, the mind is not as easy, and is not necessary nailed to the biological carrier.
So, the mind study is what the developed civilisation will actually need.
(But not in the sense of first making somebody go cuckoo by social pressing and gaslighting, then milking him for money by feeding the helpless pray, lying on the couch, with vague words).
The memory storing, the thoughts exchange, the mind control, the possessing of a custom body, the backup/escape of personality, the reality augmentation, various other things, requiring various studies from the brain vivisection (like cleaning an onion to sort out and isolate the exact electric pulses between exact cells)
to the global electric activity, strangely matching the human brain wave frequencies
(

• don't they interact?
• aren't the human brain waves evolutionarily synchronized with the Earth atmo/magnetospere resonant frequencies?
• can't they be affected by the low-frequency pulses like the monstrous HAARP-like emitters?
• isn't the brain at all a network adaptor, interacting via the Earth electromagnetic field as an electric amplifier, with a cloud storage where the inner reality and thoughts do exist?
• can a human stay sapient beyond the Earth atmosphere, or his brain will say "low signal", and the human will turn into a thoughtless  monkey?
• thus, the question of 200% guarantee that the Apollo astronauts (not the landers which had an option of remote control, and thus could be crewless, but the humanbeings) have indeed been on the Moon is significantly more important than just flags and footprints, as if the consciousness of sapient species is nailed to the native planet, then physical interplanetary travels are impossible, and only remote control of the exoplanetary species' mind can let you visit other planets and stars;
• if/as the human brain waves, and thus emotional state, decisions, and thoughts, can be probably affected by modulating electromagnetic waves in the atmosphere/magnetosphere oscillating circuit, then the HAARP-like emitters are just children toys, compared to the ability of remote electromagnetic modulation from another star, and ths give a theoretical possibility to affect/control/possess the other star dwellers from interstellar distance before they even notice that something happens;

)
 

All of that means that the minds and personalities of the other civilisation would not be important for a developed interstellar civilisation, and the SETI is just an infantile nonsense caused by the XIX-XX romantism, like the naked couples on the Pioneer tablets.
(It's funny, though, that the first thing sent via the interplanetary FIDO was  the "couple of standing adult nudists" from P_ioneerHub).

So, the developed civilisation would treat any biological and/or sapient species (including their native ones, let alone the aliens) only as a possible resource.
"Girls, remember! The only reason why someone is interested in your inner world, are your <_{a short homonym to a little bird}>s."

Thus, the contact with a developed civilisation would look like the excellent s01e22 Reckoning  episode of the Legend of the Seeker.

Richard and Cara have moved to the future.

They see a devastated land, covered with ruins  which were intact buildings just moments ago, and some degraded fanatic people.
All survived people minds are already possessed by Master Nicholas Rahl, The Confessor, living in a dark cave somewhere near, whom they serve to.
They find Shota, their familiar witch, 58 years older than she was before their jump.
Richard sends Shota to find Master Rahl and bring him a message.
Shota goes, meets the Rahl's degraded bandit guards, asks for audition, is guided to the cave.
Once she has entered the dark cave, and calls for Master Rahl, he suddenly appears from the dark before any hello, gets her mind possessed, and starts interrogating her, then sends her back.

Spoiler

No, it's not Fester Addams, it's Nicholas Rahl.

In their own turn, all Master Rahls, while being biologically human, are possessed/driven/contact with less material entities.

Being combined with their long-lasting studies of mind and memories, this will lead any developed civilisation to the mind battlefield, where any biological species makes sense only as a ready-to-use tool, saving efforts otherwise required to construct it artificially.
They don't need the human bros for drooling on each others' shoulder from happiness of two lonely hearts.
They may or may not appreciate the humans as a hardware for their firmware software, or as a food for their sapient kitties, or as a fertilizer for the grassland of their cute ponies.
Their aim should be in establishing and expanding their mind network between the stars, and through the depth of their fabric of reality.
The humans or any other species are just organized matter, like the crickets, which you can listen or cook, depending on your needs.

The interstellar expansion of a developed civilization would be a hack-and-slash slash-and-burn agriculture, not a tea party with neighbors and ginger cookies.
The devs will come, burn everything around to sterilize and fertilize the ground, then plant what they need (crops), leave some local speies to serve them (the predator birds, nesting on specially left leafless big trees, to hunt the rodents and sparrows between the crops), then a decade later leave the place to  return a half-century later to repeat.

Spoiler

Burn the wood, replace with crops.

The only difference that instead of burning the bushes and small trees with torches, they will use either Sundial-like gigaton nukes, or relativistic kinetic impactors, or a focused beam from the nearest neutron star magnetosphere.
And instead of the eagles and falcons they can use some amount of humans with possessed mind, to hunt everything unplanned, and beautify the surrounding landscape.

The only reason why they can contact the humans, are the enormous interstellar distances, making it hard to remotely control the other star dwellers in real time.
But as their aim would not be having a family chat, but expansion of their unified mind network, it would be enough for them to take under control some part of the aimed civilisation, impregnate its mind, turning them into faithful servants, and using them as a breakthrough group, reformat the civilisation into what they need to possess, and then modify.
No need to send your squid-like body to the hostile planet, if your mind can be reproduced in the local monkeys' brains. Don't be racist, the mind decides.

This in turn means that no Dyson Spheres or Intergalactic Power Network are required.
What a developed civilisation requires, is an ability to remotely manage other civilisation, to slash-and-burn/hack-and-slash what they need to, and a breakthrough from the material world into the very reign of mind, wherever it exists, to rule the material world directly and unlimitedly.

So, on the physical plane they would need not a Dyson sphere, but the places of concentrated energy and magnetic fields, like the neutron stars or the galaxy/quasar cores, to send beams and cause whirls where they need.

The efforts of making humans what the humans don't need would be a much more significant message from another civilisation than stupid SETI pictures and flower garlands on the contacters' necks.
Say, eat bugs or prohibit cow f-rting.

Finally, the developed civilisation comes to something looking like the gnostic world of some kind, and will be making others to join it, neglecting any of their material nature.

If the human civilisation survives, it will in turn either join the winners, or develop its own kind of that. It's an evolutionary process.

Edited July 23 by kerbiloid

[magnemoe]

On 7/16/2024 at 11:17 PM, darthgently said:

I vote raccoons.  They have opposable thumbs and more attitude than rabbits

See some dangers with this, upside garbage recycling works great and makes an profit. On the other hand its run by an mafia. By the griping hand they are so cute you let it pass. 
Also probably not that hard probably not so hard to uplift, better hands and smarter, the problem with designing raccoon proof bins is that its an overlap between stupidest human and smartest raccoon. 
(granted if many don't see the solution in 5 seconds they just put trash by can while an raccoon can easy spend an hour trying to open it) 

[Nuke]

uplift sea sausages. enlarge the flippers so they can "swim" in pressurized zero-g habs. they are used to 3-dimentional habitation, floorspace is a meaningless concept to them. they might have a water tank centrifuge where they can relieve themselves, also provides waste for aquaponics and for herring to filter and consume (allowing closed loop food supply). also provides water for drinking and allows the sea doggos to stay hydrated. ability to hold their breath for a long time allow them limited eva capacity with just a pressure suit. thick blubber and fur allows you to use less energy for heating (imagine apollo 13 but replace tom hanks with a seal). large eyes provide excellent vision in dark environments. and because its already a marine mammal they would be excelent for colonizing sub surface oceans like europa and others. a gene drive can be triggered to undo the space adaptations and return them to a purely aquatic configuration.

[darthgently]

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

uplift sea sausages. enlarge the flippers so they can "swim" in pressurized zero-g habs. they are used to 3-dimentional habitation, floorspace is a meaningless concept to them. they might have a water tank centrifuge where they can relieve themselves, also provides waste for aquaponics and for herring to filter and consume (allowing closed loop food supply). also provides water for drinking and allows the sea doggos to stay hydrated. ability to hold their breath for a long time allow them limited eva capacity with just a pressure suit. thick blubber and fur allows you to use less energy for heating (imagine apollo 13 but replace tom hanks with a seal). large eyes provide excellent vision in dark environments. and because its already a marine mammal they would be excelent for colonizing sub surface oceans like europa and others. a gene drive can be triggered to undo the space adaptations and return them to a purely aquatic configuration.

Obviously you've read David Brin's Uplift Saga.  If not, you are ready to