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[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

Beale

By Beale
in KSP1 Mod Releases

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OTmikhail

OTmikhail

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, OTmikhail said:

@Beale have you tried putting Place-Anywhere 7 Linear RCS Ports on the upper stages? Also maybe destructive staging would work, have sepratrons, decoupler, and 2nd stage engine activate at the same time to keep momentum going? I have to do this with almost all the upper stages in your mod, and don't take that as a criticism, I honestly believe it's the result of the latest Squad aerodynamic and physics changes a few versions ago. I will try to make an exact remake of the rocket in your video to illustrate if you like.

4 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I don't have to do that for any of the BDB rockets, except the Atlas which needs work. With all due respect I think you're not flying in a way that is ideal for the new aerodynamics.

 

@CobaltWolf I'm curious to know your flight pattern. I usually go straight up until either 10 km altitude or 300m/s, whichever happens first, then slowly turn down to 45 deg, stay like that until 30-40km then go horizontal until my intended final altitude. I also slow myself down a single "notch" on the throttle every 100m/s (I can elaborate if that doesn't make sense). Depending on the size of the rocket I usually only use 5-10 units of Monopropellant on the way up. Any tips so I don't have to add RCS or even winglets? Also if my flight path isn't what you meant than forgive me for misunderstanding.

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CobaltWolf

CobaltWolf

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, OTmikhail said:

@CobaltWolf I'm curious to know your flight pattern. I usually go straight up until either 10 km altitude or 300m/s, whichever happens first, then slowly turn down to 45 deg, stay like that until 30-40km then go horizontal until my intended final altitude. I also slow myself down a single "notch" on the throttle every 100m/s (I can elaborate if that doesn't make sense). Depending on the size of the rocket I usually only use 5-10 units of Monopropellant on the way up. Any tips so I don't have to add RCS or even winglets? Also if my flight path isn't what you meant than forgive me for misunderstanding.

Start your gravity turn at 100 m/s, pitch down at a relatively constant rate after that. Just nudge it constantly the whole way out of the atmosphere. You should be level around the time your AP is 60km. Keep your heading within the green circle for prograde (around 3 degrees off of centered prograde, max) because if you try to turn harder you'll dig into the airstream and flip. I don't throttle because, idk, real lifter engines usually don't. But it helps. You don't want high TWR - your starting sea level TWR shouldn't be more than 1.1-1.2.

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Beale

Beale

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I don't have to do that for any of the BDB rockets, except the Atlas which needs work. With all due respect I think you're not flying in a way that is ideal for the new aerodynamics.

Sadly fresh new configs have made no difference, it still flips :( 

Again, the video for anyone to help, I'm getting quite desperate!

I found this in partDatabase, why is it like this? 

PART
{
	url = TantaresLV/NLV/_Knight_Engine_A/Knight_Engine_A
	DRAG_CUBE
	{
		procedural = True
	}
}

 

Edited by Beale
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CobaltWolf

CobaltWolf

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Beale said:

Sadly fresh new configs have made no difference, it still flips :( 

Again, the video for anyone to help, I'm getting quite desperate!

Then I believe the issue perhaps lies in the Unity setup. Some oddity there. @curtquarquesso you build a rocket using stock parts that had the same proportions as the Black Arrow correct?

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TheShadow1138

TheShadow1138

Posted
Posted

@Beale I played around with the Black Arrow a lot, and here's what I believe I've found.

As you have the configs, once the first stage decouples, the lever arm from the center of thrust to the center of mass is rather short, due to the much larger empty mass of the Knight_Engine_A.  This, of course, means that you would need more force to apply the necessary torque.  I changed the empty masses of the Knight_Engine_A and Knight_LFO_A by exchanging them, making the tank's empty mass more than the engine's mass, and increasing the gimbal angle to 6 on the engine.  With this setup in a purely 2-stage configuration and no fairing, it behaves quite well with no flipping.

I then changed the Wax_SRB_A config, scaling the mass and TWR to the real thing using the necessary proportions between the real Black Arrow second stage and third stage.  This caused the Wax_SRB_A mass to increase slightly with a similar increase in thrust.  I also modified the Isp to achieve the same burn-time as before.  Using this new config and what appears to be the same setup form the video (minus the fairing), staging does not cause the rocket to flip so long as you fly nearly straight up throughout the entire first stage burn.  You can pitch the vehicle slightly (to the edge of the prograde marker after liftoff), but not much farther, or it will flip.  Once the second stage starts, which I had set to activate in the same stage as the decoupler, you can begin to pitch over carefully, but you should be beyond flipping it once you get it to about 20km altitude.  If you place the fairing on it, however, it will flip every time.  I believe it is possible that this is due to the fairing lift bug, which may explain why some seem to have no issue while other do, they may be using the stock bug fixes modules.  Of course, this is simply speculation, but without the fairing, I've gotten it to be at least flyable.

Modifications made to the Knight_Engine_A.cfg: 

mass = 0.15
//mass = 0.54

ModuleGimbal
{
	gimbalRange = 6
	//gimbalRange = 3
}

Modifications to Knight_LFO_A.cfg: 

mass = 0.54
//mass = 0.15

Modified Wax_SRB_A.cfg: 

PART
{

name = Wax_SRB_A
module = Part
author = Tantares

MODEL
{
   model = TantaresLV/NLV/Wax_SRB_A
}
scale = 1
rescaleFactor = 1.0

node_stack_top    = 0.0,  0.605, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0
node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.605, 0.0, 0.0, -1.0, 0.0, 0


EFFECTS
{
  running_closed
  {
    AUDIO
    {
      channel = Ship
      clip = sound_rocket_hard
      volume = 0.0 0.0
      volume = 3.0 3.0
      pitch = 0.0 0.2
      pitch = 1.0 1.0
      loop = true
    }
    PREFAB_PARTICLE
    {
      prefabName = fx_smokeTrail_veryLarge
      transformName = smokeTransform
      emission = 0.0 0.0
      emission = 0.05 0.0
      emission = 0.075 0.25
      emission = 1.0 1.25
      speed = 0.0 0.25
      speed = 1.0 1.0
      localOffset = 0, 0, 1
    }
    MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE
    {
      modelName = Squad/FX/shockExhaust_blue
      transformName = thrustTransform
      emission = 0.0 0.0
      emission = 0.05 0.0
      emission = 0.075 0.25
      emission = 1.0 1.25
      speed = 0.0 0.5
      speed = 1.0 1.2
    }
  }
  engage
  {
    AUDIO
    {
      channel = Ship
      clip = sound_vent_soft
      volume = 1.0
      pitch = 2.0
      loop = false
    }
  }
  flameout
  {
    PREFAB_PARTICLE
    {
      prefabName = fx_exhaustSparks_flameout_2
      transformName = thrustTransform
      oneShot = true
    }
    AUDIO
    {
      channel = Ship
      clip = sound_explosion_low
      volume = 1.0
      pitch = 2.0
      loop = false
    }
  }
}

TechRequired = heavierRocketry
entryCost = 290
cost = 290

category     = Propulsion
subcategory  = 0
title        = Wax SRM-QLJ Solid Rocket Motor
manufacturer = Kerwell Sciences
description  = The Waxwing.

attachRules = 1,0,1,1,0

mass = 0.071
//mass = 0.1125
dragModelType  = default
maximum_drag   = 0.20
minimum_drag   = 0.15
angularDrag    = 2
crashTolerance = 15

maxTemp                    = 2000
heatConductivity           = 0.06
skinInternalConductionMult = 4.0
emissiveConstant           = 0.8

stagingIcon = SOLID_BOOSTER
 
MODULE
{
	name = ModuleEnginesFX
	EngineType = SolidBooster
	engineID = ClosedCycle
	runningEffectName = running_closed

	thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
	throttleLocked = True
	exhaustDamage = True
	ignitionThreshold = 0.1
	minThrust = 0
	maxThrust = 8.5
	//maxThrust = 7.5
	heatProduction = 200
	useEngineResponseTime = True
	engineAccelerationSpeed = 0.5
	allowShutdown = True
	fxOffset = 0, 0, 0.35
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = SolidFuel
        	ratio = 1.0
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	atmosphereCurve
 	{
	 key = 0 283
	 key = 1 204
   	 //key = 0 250
  	 //key = 1 180
 	}
	
}

RESOURCE
{
 name = SolidFuel
 amount = 18.9
 maxAmount = 18.9
 //amount = 10
 //maxAmount = 10
}

MODULE
{
       name = ModuleJettison
       jettisonName = Wax_SRB_A_Fairing
       bottomNodeName = bottom
       isFairing = True
       jettisonedObjectMass = 0.1
       jettisonForce = 5
       jettisonDirection = 0 0 1
	
}


MODULE
{
	name = ModuleSurfaceFX
	thrustProviderModuleIndex = 0
	fxMax = 0.3
	maxDistance = 20
	falloff = 2
	thrustTransformName = thrustTransform
}



}

 

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CobaltWolf

CobaltWolf

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Beale said:

Sadly fresh new configs have made no difference, it still flips :( 

Again, the video for anyone to help, I'm getting quite desperate!

I found this in partDatabase, why is it like this? 


PART
{
	url = TantaresLV/NLV/_Knight_Engine_A/Knight_Engine_A
	DRAG_CUBE
	{
		procedural = True
	}
}

 

Isn't that because you didn't define one in the cfg? I don't define one for any of mine. All of my engines say that they are procedural in my PartsDatabase.cfg.

@TheShadow1138 could the same thing be achieved by offsetting the COM of the 2nd stage engine and tanks down towards the bottom? Would keep them balanced (the tank would stay in the correct ratio of volume to mass) but might achieve the same thing.

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TheShadow1138

TheShadow1138

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Isn't that because you didn't define one in the cfg? I don't define one for any of mine. All of my engines say that they are procedural in my PartsDatabase.cfg.

@TheShadow1138 could the same thing be achieved by offsetting the COM of the 2nd stage engine and tanks down towards the bottom? Would keep them balanced (the tank would stay in the correct ratio of volume to mass) but might achieve the same thing.

Actually, you'd want them to shift upward towards the third stage to make application of torque easier, and I thought a COM offset would be "hacky", but then again changing the mass values like that could just as easily be considered "hacky".  I hadn't considered the volume to mass ratio of the tank, but I did think it slightly odd the the engine was more than 3x the empty mass of the tank.  A COM offset would be just as good.

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CobaltWolf

CobaltWolf

Posted
Posted
Just now, TheShadow1138 said:

Actually, you'd want them to shift upward towards the third stage to make application of torque easier, and I thought a COM offset would be "hacky", but then again changing the mass values like that could just as easily be considered "hacky".  I hadn't considered the volume to mass ratio of the tank, but I did think it slightly odd the the engine was more than 3x the empty mass of the tank.  A COM offset would be just as good.

Err, right right. Up. The difference is the CoM doesn't affect the DeltaV in any significant way.

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TheShadow1138

TheShadow1138

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Err, right right. Up. The difference is the CoM doesn't affect the DeltaV in any significant way.

True, but I don't think what I did affects the ∆v significantly as I didn't change the overall mass of the stage, I just replaced the engine's mass with the tank's empty mass, and the tank's empty mass with the engine's mass, so the overall mass of the stage didn't change (the same thrust is trying to lift and steer the same mass as before).  It may change the steering losses, but I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.  My instinct says that with a longer lever arm, less force is needed to create the torque to steer the rocket, so more of the force would be pushing the vehicle rather than trying to create torque, but I may be thinking about this entirely wrong.

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Jso

Jso

Posted
Posted

The first stage separation appears a bit violent.

G7mOUYQ.png

There are two ModuleJettison's in Knight_Engine_A. A shroud and a support structure. Maybe there's a part collision going on causing a tumble.

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Beale

Beale

Posted
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Posted
8 minutes ago, Jso said:

The first stage separation appears a bit violent.

G7mOUYQ.png

There are two ModuleJettison's in Knight_Engine_A. A shroud and a support structure. Maybe there's a part collision going on causing a tumble.

I don't think likely, none of the fairings have colliders :) 

2 hours ago, TheShadow1138 said:

@Beale I played around with the Black Arrow a lot, and here's what I believe I've found.

As you have the configs, once the first stage decouples, the lever arm from the center of thrust to the center of mass is rather short, due to the much larger empty mass of the Knight_Engine_A.  This, of course, means that you would need more force to apply the necessary torque.  I changed the empty masses of the Knight_Engine_A and Knight_LFO_A by exchanging them, making the tank's empty mass more than the engine's mass, and increasing the gimbal angle to 6 on the engine.  With this setup in a purely 2-stage configuration and no fairing, it behaves quite well with no flipping.

I then changed the Wax_SRB_A config, scaling the mass and TWR to the real thing using the necessary proportions between the real Black Arrow second stage and third stage.  This caused the Wax_SRB_A mass to increase slightly with a similar increase in thrust.  I also modified the Isp to achieve the same burn-time as before.  Using this new config and what appears to be the same setup form the video (minus the fairing), staging does not cause the rocket to flip so long as you fly nearly straight up throughout the entire first stage burn.  You can pitch the vehicle slightly (to the edge of the prograde marker after liftoff), but not much farther, or it will flip.  Once the second stage starts, which I had set to activate in the same stage as the decoupler, you can begin to pitch over carefully, but you should be beyond flipping it once you get it to about 20km altitude.  If you place the fairing on it, however, it will flip every time.  I believe it is possible that this is due to the fairing lift bug, which may explain why some seem to have no issue while other do, they may be using the stock bug fixes modules.  Of course, this is simply speculation, but without the fairing, I've gotten it to be at least flyable.

Modifications made to the Knight_Engine_A.cfg:

Modifications to Knight_LFO_A.cfg:

Modified Wax_SRB_A.cfg:

 

unfortunately this kind of change breaks the parts for use elsewhere, stock dry/full ratios need to remain intact. Thanks though! :) 

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Jso

Jso

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, Beale said:

I don't think likely, none of the fairings have colliders :) 

Well, if I replace the Knight engine with a Spark 47S it decouples cleanly and flys on. Granted that takes some mass away at the engine. I'll try it with a mass adjusted config when I get home from work and see what happens.

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Beale

Beale

Posted
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Jso said:

Well, if I replace the Knight engine with a Spark 47S it decouples cleanly and flys on. Granted that takes some mass away at the engine. I'll try it with a mass adjusted config when I get home from work and see what happens.

4 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

I had to play with the module jettisons when I was playing with the new Titan engines for BDB. They were blowing up when they staged. I had to set fairing to true for it to work.

Very interesting! Let me try this.

Black Prince Start.

cb3295dfa4.jpg

Edited by Beale
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VenomousRequiem

VenomousRequiem

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Beale said:

SUCCESS!

So many thanks @Jso @CobaltWolf.

Looks like isFairing = false caused all issues.

Quite a major bug! I am very confident is is causing problems in other parts of the mod!

56caf6fcfa.jpg

Bluedog Design Bureau saves the day again! :)

@Jso Since I count you as part of the BDB team, I'm allowed to credit us, right? :P

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CobaltWolf

CobaltWolf

Posted
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Beale said:

SUCCESS!

So many thanks @Jso @CobaltWolf.

Looks like isFairing = false caused all issues.

Quite a major bug! I am very confident is is causing problems in other parts of the mod!

Does it count as a bug if you're not following the intended usage / configuration? :P I think the fact that changing that setting fixed it just means that the setting had to be changed. EDIT: Specifically, this behavior has been my experience with beginning to add extra fairings to engines. I recently made it so all the Titan first stage engines have two sets of shrouds. Ones on top, to use if it's a first stage with SRBs, and normal ones on the bottom for if they're just the second stage of an even ridiculously bigger rocket.

Anyways, glad to hear that you're rolling again. I figured that might be partially responsible for how slow things have been around here the past couple days. Does that also mean you'll be finishing up a certain conical craft soon? :P I was going to have @VenomousRequiem get started on the Europa parts but she's still getting set up since her computer went toast. I was considering also getting her to do the Ariane 5 upper stages since I understand you'll never get around to them haha.

Edited by CobaltWolf
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Beale

Beale

Posted
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Posted
14 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Does it count as a bug if you're not following the intended usage / configuration? :P I think the fact that changing that setting fixed it just means that the setting had to be changed. EDIT: Specifically, this behavior has been my experience with beginning to add extra fairings to engines. I recently made it so all the Titan first stage engines have two sets of shrouds. Ones on top, to use if it's a first stage with SRBs, and normal ones on the bottom for if they're just the second stage of an even ridiculously bigger rocket.

Anyways, glad to hear that you're rolling again. I figured that might be partially responsible for how slow things have been around here the past couple days. Does that also mean you'll be finishing up a certain conical craft soon? :P 

Maybe I am a little confused, I though isFairing=False was for normal inline fairings, and isFairing=True was for more complex NERVA like fairings?

Anyway, yes - Big-G should now be a priority :) 

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CobaltWolf

CobaltWolf

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Beale said:

Maybe I am a little confused, I though isFairing=False was for normal inline fairings, and isFairing=True was for more complex NERVA like fairings?

Anyway, yes - Big-G should now be a priority :) 

Don't forget the indexing key for the nosecone. :)@VenomousRequiem apparently already started on Europa's third stage.

1 minute ago, VenomousRequiem said:

Ahhhh, dodging the issue of Ariane 5 again I see. :P

We'll just make it and force him to include it ;)

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Beale

Beale

Posted
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, VenomousRequiem said:

Ahhhh, dodging the issue of Ariane 5 again I see. :P

11 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

We'll just make it and force him to include it ;)

Quiet you both! :wink: 

I will jump on both Gemini, Proton and Ariane soon.

Currently I am fixing a website, somebody decided to store passwords as plain-text, naughty naughty. 
So, I am a little held up today in general.

 

Edited by Beale
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VenomousRequiem

VenomousRequiem

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Beale said:

Quiet you both! :wink: 

I will jump on both Gemini, Proton and Ariane soon.

Currently I am fixing a website, somebody decided to store passwords as plain-text, naughty naughty. 
So, I am a little held up today in general.

 

Oh, well good luck! I can't wait to see the rest of Proton and Ariane. :)

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akron

akron

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Beale said:

The Black King Regent Khan Baron (Needs catchy name for this launcher) is going to be quite larger!, here it is without even a quarter of the Black Prince body.

<Awesome Images>

I feel smooth jazz should've accompanied this post.

EDIT: I suggest Black Mamba

Edited by akron
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