[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [26.0][18.12.2023][Things are happening]

[NeoFatalis]

I just thought about something... the stock stayputnik Mk I should represent the sputnik I right? but it's ridiculously huge compared to a correctly scaled sputnik because it means the original one should be 2.5 meters wide , I could'nt find any mod that have a "small sputnik" and I think that Tantares would be the perfect mod to have one...

[legoclone09]

10 minutes ago, IsimonZx said:

I just thought about something... the stock stayputnik Mk I should represent the sputnik I right? but it's ridiculously huge compared to a correctly scaled sputnik because it means the original one should be 2.5 meters wide , I could'nt find any mod that have a "small sputnik" and I think that Tantares would be the perfect mod to have one...

Yeah, but the Stayputnik kind of has to be that size so it is reasonable, and it's already the smallest size in the stock game. I could whip up a MM config to do this, though.

[NeoFatalis]

13 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

Yeah, but the Stayputnik kind of has to be that size so it is reasonable, and it's already the smallest size in the stock game. I could whip up a MM config to do this, though.

Yeah... I guess your'e kinda right... but it's still has this ugly node on it's bottom

[legoclone09]

Just now, IsimonZx said:

Yeah... I guess your'e kinda right... but it's still has this ugly node on it's bottom

What do you mean ugly node? The attach node? You can reduce the size in the cfg if you want.

[NeoFatalis]

2 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

What do you mean ugly node? The attach node? You can reduce the size in the cfg if you want.

Oh... ok , I don't have any  more complains , thanks for the help...

 

[hraban]

Beale,

i make this on the fly. That will looks more like Proton first stage engine cover.

 

[InsaneDruid]

But its completely wrong in shape.

I sent Beale my meshes  (my proton has them correct) so he can use mine for guidance.

[SSgt Baloo]

3 hours ago, Beale said:

There are some craft files on the main page, which may be a little out of date, but may generally work.

Thanks! Sometimes it's helpful to disassemble one, just to see exactly how it went together in the first place. Then I can start making "improvements".  

I still love that tiniest of reentry vehicles, even if I can't seem to find the crew hatch to perform an EVA. That's a vessel, so cramped, that once the crew gets out, they'd rather walk home anyway, than get back in. "It's only seventy-five kilometers, and downhill the whole way. How long could it take?"  

[Thraken]

Arn't we getting a bit too critical here?  I don't think this (beloved) mod has ever tried to be a hyper realistic model of reality.  The first word after the dash in Tantares is "Stockalike", not "Realistic".

It seems several of you are looking for the soviet version of FASA.  Maybe someone wants to tackle that in a separate mod.

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

Also, @curtquarquesso on the topic of sizing I don't assume that Mercury scales to 1.25m in game, I though that generally everything was just 62.5% / 64% of IRL size and then rounded to the closest diameter.

I have been a fan of the 1.875 m Gemini in this mod, and I've been trying to think of the best way to describe why I really like it that size.  This comment helped me think of the best way to describe my thoughts here.

• Mercury was 1.89m at the base, and more or less that scales to 1.25m (small) in the game (~ 66%)
• Apollo CM was 3.9m at the base, and more or less that scales to 2.5m (medium) in the game (~64%)

So the non-stock capsules that we all love here (and in other mods) will fall somewhere in between these two sizes.

• Soyuz decent module is 2.2m diameter
• Gemini capsule was 2.3m at the base. (same as Vostok diameter)
• The VA capsule from the TKS was 2.9m at the base.

The Stock game has 4 sizes.

• Tiny - 0.625m (one half of small)
• Small - 1.25m (the baseline size for KSP)
• Medium - 2.5m (two times small)
• Large - 3.75m (three times small and 1.5 times medium)

Since the non-stock capsules fit into the space between small and medium, we are left with a few options.

• Everyone model their own capsules at whatever size they want
• Scale certain mods down or up so they can play nice and be "stockalike" (tantares Soyuz does this well)
• Modding community can align on a "stockalike" size between small and medium

I'm a fan of the second and third option.  1.875m makes sense.  It is 1.5 times small size.  It also end up being one half large size.  

A perfect example of how this might play out is in using Tantares along with @Angel-125's MOLE mod.  He is planning a 1.875m lab unit, and I'd like to put a Gemini capsule (from this mod) right in front of it.  If the Gemini capsule goes to 1.5m, then I have to use the service module to make it fit with a 1.875m part.  Another example is that I have used @Orionkermin's HGR and Corvus mods with Tantares to have some fun with the KSP "space lego" aspect of the game.  I've used the 1.875m Soyuz service module from that mod along with some of the TKS crew cabins to make an early Tiangong 1 - style space station.

Speaking of HGR, there was once (maybe still is) Gemini analog in that mod.  It had an odd size at the base (not sure if it was 1.5m).  That mod included an procedural adapter so that it would fit a 1.25m, 1.875m, or 2.5m bottom node.  It was slick, but it just felt like you could never use that capsule with out the adapter.

Sorry if this came off as a rant.  It isn't.  I love your mod @Beale!  It makes the game more fun for me and I'm sure many others.  I know you put in all this work out of love for the game, and not a paycheck.  Thank you!

[CobaltWolf]

44 minutes ago, Thraken said:

Arn't we getting a bit too critical here?  I don't think this (beloved) mod has ever tried to be a hyper realistic model of reality.  The first word after the dash in Tantares is "Stockalike", not "Realistic".

It seems several of you are looking for the soviet version of FASA.  Maybe someone wants to tackle that in a separate mod

I think the issue is confused somewhat because something was never made clear. @Beale is the Gemini being moved to BDB? In which case 1.5m is an existing and common size, so there is nothing strange about having 1.5m and 1.875m parts.

I'm a bit confused over the amount of controversy re: sizing. It seems like a straightforward thing to me.

Something I see a lot is that parts should be 'lego style' and not model kits. With that said, I think that there is a lot of diversity in the 1.25m-2.5m size range for launchers and personally I've decided it's good to represent some of that range of sizes. I don't think that things are made incompatible because parts can easily be tweakscaled between sizes.

On the topic of HGR, I've somewhat remade OrionKermin's Radish capsule which is the gemini-esque pod. Mine is 1.5m at the base, and has 1.875m expanded, 1.5m straight, and 1.25m necked adapters. I haven't decided whether to integrate them in the heatshield, or make them separate parts.

[davidy12]

@Beale: GREAT PROTON ROCKET Buddy!!! Though I've got a problem with the Soyuz rocket. The center Vernors don't ignite

@curtquarquesso: Just curious, why haven't you made a tweak scale config yet? Sorry to pester, just really want to get my rockets working

 

[curtquarquesso]

On February 11, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Beale said:

Really pretty! Great job (And great finding a job)!
It should probably be 1.875m, or near that.

But, it would be too much work, and I am not that concerned for accuracy in this regard (Tantares will always be 1.25m unless there's a radical shift in stock sizes).
On a side note, it looks like PBR is out for 1.1, unfortunately.

Lack of PBR in 1.1 was sad news. I was really looking forward to it. I was planning on holding off on releasing stuff until 1.1 hit, but I guess I'll just push stuff out using the standard shaders in Unity. It'll be less work in the long term still to work ahead for PBR. 

23 hours ago, Beale said:

ALV Mk3!
It's a pretty one! I am really happy how this turned out.
It is a good perspective when you consider this is only the third Proton I have modelled, while some craft like the Soyuz are on their 6th iteration! 
The current Proton parts are old!

The Mk2 aged very well for how old it was. Barely noticed a different frankly. 
I will say, for some reason, the engine nozzles seem much to small in comparison to the rest of the stage. What's your current source material?

23 hours ago, Beale said:

Thanks!
I think a line-up is also in proper order, the N-1 looks very out of date now! 
The Ariane is also ridiculously huge! But that will be fixed!
I'm going to take a short break from the Proton to plan out the Gemini  

N1: In need of an overhaul, but probably low-priority. I can mock up the general scales of the parts and the appropriate divisions if it makes things easier for you at all.
Ariane: What scale do you think you'll go for? 3.0m, or 3.125m? 
R7: More on that in a little while...
Antares: I've got a fixed and properly scaled version I'll send your way when I feel it's done. 

23 hours ago, InsaneDruid said:

Nice.
Though I am not THAT happy with the fairings between the engines. So many models have them wrong (besides, some have completely wrong diameters of the whole craft even in RSS/RO ;)). The Fairings don't just extend down, they go outwards! They shall redirect the airflow around the engine exhaust wenn the engines gimbal (and thus the exhaust plume tilts outwards into the space between the outrigger tanks. So they have to be visible when looking from above, between the fuel tanks.

Also the top should not be inset. Its a smooth heatshield-dome as it has to protect the central ox trank from the flames of the RD-0210/11 Engines and let their exhaust flow nicely away. The Proton uses hot staging like so many older russian designs, so the lower stage has to survive over 3.5 seconds of the stage2 engines already burning. And that exhaust has to flow away, through the open truss interstage. Such a "crown" around the edge of the tank would catch the hot gases.

I know its heavily stylized, but..

I've figured out a way to do the "crown" on the top of the tank you're referring to. If you build it into the tank, it makes it unusable for play with most other parts. The trick is, to put the crown in the fairing of the engine that goes on top of it, not the tank itself. That way, everything is compatible with everything. I'll post pictures of what I mean below...

22 hours ago, SSgt Baloo said:

I love this parts pack, but I am so unfamiliar with the Soviet designs that I have very little idea how to assemble them into a replica of a Soviet space vehicle, and there do not appear to be any craft files included in the  original download. Is there a guide or instruction manual to walk someone through the process of constructing one?

That's part of the fun! Do the research yourself! I used to host craft files, but couldn't keep up with the revamps. Tis a lost cause for now. 

19 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Also, @curtquarquesso on the topic of sizing I don't assume that Mercury scales to 1.25m in game, I though that generally everything was just 62.5% / 64% of IRL size and then rounded to the closest diameter.

Ah. Yes. I do recall this. Usually, I prioritize scale of parts compared to each other over parts compared to the scale of the planet. At long as it performs about like you'd expect, and is equally balanced to stock, I'm good. 

17 hours ago, Thraken said:

Aren't we getting a bit too critical here?  I don't think this (beloved) mod has ever tried to be a hyper realistic model of reality.  The first word after the dash in Tantares is "Stockalike", not "Realistic".
It seems several of you are looking for the soviet version of FASA.  Maybe someone wants to tackle that in a separate mod.

– Big snip –

Sorry if this came off as a rant.  It isn't.  I love your mod @Beale!  It makes the game more fun for me and I'm sure many others.  I know you put in all this work out of love for the game, and not a paycheck.  Thank you!

This is a great post, and really well done. 
1.875m still feels large for Gemini. If it's only slightly larger than the Soyuz descent capsule, then 1.5m makes more sense. The best argument for a 1.5m Gemini capsule is that it makes all the other related parts scale to normal sizes everyone likes like 1.875m, 0.625m, and the stock sizes. Least messy option by far.

I think SQUAD needs to formally adopt 1.875m as a standard size. I was playing the other day with sole stock parts, and I could't make a single vesselI liked, because all the size transitions were just so awkward and jarring. Intermediate sizes like 1.875m, 0.9375m, and perhaps eventually 1.5m, makes building so much nice, provided you have a handful of adapters and transition parts to make things play nice. 

16 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I think the issue is confused somewhat because something was never made clear. @Beale is the Gemini being moved to BDB? In which case 1.5m is an existing and common size, so there is nothing strange about having 1.5m and 1.875m parts.
I'm a bit confused over the amount of controversy re: sizing. It seems like a straightforward thing to me.

I'd like to see Gemini to remain in Tantares if at all possible. There's no reason both add-ons can't have their own takes on Gemini. 
On scaling, I didn't think so either. The general goal should be to try to make the size and scale as realistic as possible, while being totally compatible with the stock parts, and common intermediate sizes, right?

16 hours ago, davidy12 said:

@curtquarquesso: Just curious, why haven't you made a tweak scale config yet? Sorry to pester, just really want to get my rockets working

I've been holding off on releasing TweakScale configs because I've been working on something. I'll make a post about it a bit later tonight hopefully. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by curtquarquesso

[davidy12]

@curtquarquesso: Just Dled the latest dev release of tweak scale. AND IT WORKS!!!

[curtquarquesso]

24 minutes ago, davidy12 said:

@curtquarquesso: Just Dled the latest dev release of tweak scale. AND IT WORKS!!!

What works that didn't work before? The configs that come with TweakScale for Tantares are horribly outdated. 

[Table]

Nice, I like it!

[Sli 41]

Hey great stuff I'm really loving the look of the parts!
But I don't know if I'm stupid or what, because I can't dock, I installed the drogue on a little station, got close to it, extended the probe, but it just won't attach to it. I just keep stabbing it without anything happening.

[Beale]

18 hours ago, spacecookie said:

Your revamped proton is awesome so far ! ( Still planning to ad a vertical red ALV III on the second stage ? that would be great ).

Don't take it for laziness but I got a bit lost with the new proton sizing conversation, is there a new standard ? And any new thrust values ?

It's still 2.5m in diameter (the core tube). But, a little shorter,

I hate breaking compatibility like this, but the previous Proton was still made before I got really picky about orthographics and was a little deformed. 
Once I am picky about orthographics, it's really easy to change things without breaking compatibility (see recent Soyuz, Salyut and TKS revamps).

16 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Dern, the diagonal bottoms of the boosters are my fav part.

15 hours ago, hraban said:

Beale,

i make this on the fly. That will looks more like Proton first stage engine cover.

15 hours ago, InsaneDruid said:

But its completely wrong in shape.

I sent Beale my meshes  (my proton has them correct) so he can use mine for guidance.

I'll take a second look, I have a vague idea of how the shape is, but it's tricky to copy.

16 hours ago, IsimonZx said:

I just thought about something... the stock stayputnik Mk I should represent the sputnik I right? but it's ridiculously huge compared to a correctly scaled sputnik because it means the original one should be 2.5 meters wide , I could'nt find any mod that have a "small sputnik" and I think that Tantares would be the perfect mod to have one...

I think the Sputnik would be so small!  And well, given the size of Kerbin, an R7 core with boosters could probably put it on a trajectory out of the solar system  

14 hours ago, Thraken said:

Arn't we getting a bit too critical here?  I don't think this (beloved) mod has ever tried to be a hyper realistic model of reality.  The first word after the dash in Tantares is "Stockalike", not "Realistic".

*Eloquent Rant*

Sorry if this came off as a rant.  It isn't.  I love your mod @Beale!  It makes the game more fun for me and I'm sure many others.  I know you put in all this work out of love for the game, and not a paycheck.  Thank you!

I think you some up very well why I'm not 100% wanting to scale everything perfectly. It's a shame it brings all kinds of scaling problems down the road, but I still think it's a better option.  

And thanks for the kind words!

13 hours ago, curtquarquesso said:

The Mk2 aged very well for how old it was. Barely noticed a different frankly. 
I will say, for some reason, the engine nozzles seem much to small in comparison to the rest of the stage. What's your current source material?

N1: In need of an overhaul, but probably low-priority. I can mock up the general scales of the parts and the appropriate divisions if it makes things easier for you at all.
Ariane: What scale do you think you'll go for? 3.0m, or 3.125m? 
R7: More on that in a little while...
Antares: I've got a fixed and properly scaled version I'll send your way when I feel it's done. 

I've figured out a way to do the "crown" on the top of the tank you're referring to. If you build it into the tank, it makes it unusable for play with most other parts. The trick is, to put the crown in the fairing of the engine that goes on top of it, not the tank itself. That way, everything is compatible with everything. I'll post pictures of what I mean below...

to see Gemini to remain in Tantares if at all possible. There's no reason both add-ons can't have their own takes on Gemini. 
On scaling, I didn't think so either. The general goal should be to try to make the size and scale as realistic as possible, while being totally compatible with the stock parts, and common intermediate sizes, right?

 

Long Reply Incoming:  

Nozzle Size: seems accurate based on a few drawings, maybe they are better at 120% diameter of the current nozzles?

Ariane: I don't really know, if I make it 3.125m, what diameter are the boosters, it's something horrible like "1.562515m" or an close ugly number. 
At this point, it's a really tricky beast, even scaling the ATV down to 1.875m (regardless of accuracy) is starting to look like a better option.

Crown: I think I know what you have in mind!

Gemini: I think it is best placed in BDB because:

1. It will require 1.5m parts

2. It will require a launch vehicle.

22 minutes ago, Sli 41 said:

Hey great stuff I'm really loving the look of the parts!
But I don't know if I'm stupid or what, because I can't dock, I installed the drogue on a little station, got close to it, extended the probe, but it just won't attach to it. I just keep stabbing it without anything happening.

Got a picture?  

 

On a side note, I tried to model my boy's favourite Moomin.
I need to brush up on my skills! It's like a monster from Hell!

Still, it is the first time (as far as I remember) that I've tried to model anything that isn't a machine.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Beale

[hoojiwana]

4 minutes ago, Beale said:

On a side note, I tried to model my boy's favourite Moomin.

I need to brush up on my skills! It's like a monster from Hell!

Still, it is the first time (as far as I remember) that I've tried to model anything that isn't a machine.

That seems like the perfect sort of thing to turn into an IVA prop you can hide everywhere.

[Beale]

1 minute ago, hoojiwana said:

That seems like the perfect sort of thing to turn into an IVA prop you can hide everywhere.

Haha!

I like that suggestion very much  

[Sli 41]

Ok this is what I have, the probe just pokes the port without connecting.

[CobaltWolf]

53 minutes ago, Beale said:

Ariane: I don't really know, if I make it 3.125m, what diameter are the boosters, it's something horrible like "1.562515m" or an close ugly number. 

 

At this point, it's a really tricky beast, even scaling the ATV down to 1.875m (regardless of accuracy) is starting to look like a better option.

Gemini: I think it is best placed in BDB because:

1. It will require 1.5m parts

2. It will require a launch vehicle.

MAKE THE BOOSTERS 1.5m. DO IT BEALE.

[Beale]

2 minutes ago, Sli 41 said:

Ok this is what I have, the probe just pokes the port without connecting.

 

Thanks for finding a bug!  

Looks like Soyuz_DockingMechanism_Z is set to female accidentally, that is fixed for next patch now! 

Quote

MAKE THE BOOSTERS 1.5m. DO IT BEALE

Hehehe, it is a tempting solution, but would cause all many problems! I would need a lot of adapters.

Well, size would not matter if the boosters were entirely radial, but as they currently are they have a couple of extra uses with the top attachment node.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Beale

[CobaltWolf]

4 minutes ago, Beale said:

Thanks for finding a bug!  

Looks like Soyuz_DockingMechanism_Z is set to female accidentally, that is fixed for next patch now! 

Hehehe, it is a tempting solution, but would cause all many problems! I would need a lot of adapters.

Well, size would not matter if the boosters were entirely radial, but as they currently are they have a couple of extra uses with the top attachment node.

1.5m boosters, and a 1.5m>1.25m adapter for use in a stack.

[Sli 41]

12 minutes ago, Beale said:

Thanks for finding a bug!  

Looks like Soyuz_DockingMechanism_Z is set to female accidentally, that is fixed for next patch now! 

Niice I set it to false and Kerbals are now docked to their new home

And that's good because their ship was out of fuel and they were effectively stranded up there. lol

But yeah thanks

[hraban]

47 minutes ago, Beale said:

Well, size would not matter if the boosters were entirely radial, but as they currently are they have a couple of extra uses with the top attachment node.

a lot?

max 5 Parts:  2 Nosecones and three adapters to 1.25, 1.875 and 2.5m.

The adapters can be one pice and scaled by tweakscale. So only 3 Parts