[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[RoverDude]

Is the duplication of effort over an insignificant issue really a good use of time?

Which one? The fact that it explodes ships right now in certain versions, inclusion of ModStats, or the licensing?

In any case, my plate is full at the moment.

Back to Karbonite!

So I like the idea of the Eve ocean being full of liquid Karbonite (there was always the long standing joke that it was rocket fuel...), and Jool having a Karbonite-rich atmosphere (just because I want to build a cloud mine). I'll be testing out both of these in the next day or two.

[NoMrBond]

Karbonite the solid, Karboleum the liquid and Karbogen the gas?

[SpeedyB]

This is getting cooler by the second. I'll be making some Hex-Truss parts for this very soon.

[JeffersonFlight]

Really looking forward to this, RoverDude's work has been very good so far. I also can't wait to produce some parts for this.

[RoverDude]

Karbonite the solid, Karboleum the liquid and Karbogen the gas?

Nope, just different natural forms of the same element.

Off to dinner, wrapping up a radial intake since a lot of the other parts are well under way

[MeateaW]

Can I add an idea for asteroids?

Add a module to an asteroid that places a resource, in the asteroid. Make it so you can't "transfer" the resource out, without the use of an Zero-G Drill.

Reduce the base-mass of an asteroid, and replace that with the Asteroid-Bound Karbonite. So as you mine the Karbonite out; the mass is shifted from the asteroid, to your storage container.

The final result should be a significantly lighter asteroid once you have shifted it into tanks and sent it on its way!

[Olympic1]

Can I add an idea for asteroids?

Add a module to an asteroid that places a resource, in the asteroid. Make it so you can't "transfer" the resource out, without the use of an Zero-G Drill.

Reduce the base-mass of an asteroid, and replace that with the Asteroid-Bound Karbonite. So as you mine the Karbonite out; the mass is shifted from the asteroid, to your storage container.

The final result should be a significantly lighter asteroid once you have shifted it into tanks and sent it on its way!

A bit like Hollow Asteroids where RoverDude is also working on.

[Nertea]

Yes, I like this colour scheme. It looks most... awesome.

[Olympic1]

Yes, I like this colour scheme. It looks most... awesome.

http://nertea.the3rdage.net/ksp/karbonite2.png

looks really awesome

[Robotengineer]

Yes, I like this colour scheme. It looks most... awesome.

http://nertea.the3rdage.net/ksp/karbonite2.png

That is definitely awesome. Looking forward to similarly styled parts.

[Superfluous J]

Very cool thoughts here. I love the idea of mining fuel at Jool. Perhaps allow for minor (and while-not-focused) collection so long as you can nail an orbit within a few kilometers of Jool's atmosphere?

Though now that I think about it, that probably wouldn't be all that productive, considering the fuel costs to meet up with the mining ship.

[Qberticus]

What about having it a bit more 'orange' ?

[sp1989]

I have zero experience modding, coding, etc. So it's just an idea and maybe tell me why it can't work. Maybe Kerbonite can be found at high altitudes in any planet with an atmosphere. The denser the atmosphere the more plentiful the Kerbonite. So basically could you set the values or quantities of Kerbonite at minimum and maximum altitudes on any planet with an atmosphere. Jool being the most plentiful and Duna being the least. I think the Interplanetary Mod does something like that with antimatter. Maybe high levels of Kerbonite can be found around the sun? Like I said this is just my unexperienced 2 cents. You guys could make a pretty cool looking ram scoop or Bussard Collecter.

Edited July 23, 2014 by sp1989

[bigbadben]

since you're looking at a kethane improvement.....here's some post from northstar1989 to stimulate some creative juices, from this thread: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80964-The-Ressources-mining-feature-do-you-miss-it/

tldr: oxygen/hydrogen stuff

1. NorthStar:

-The problem has always been figuring out how to make it fun an interesting, and this is what Squad struggled with.

Indeed. It can be done though... More on how in a second.

Quote Originally Posted by allmhuran:

-It may be that most people are locked into one particular view of what resources must mean, and it's basically the same as the Kethane mod: "Land, get out, gather, spend". And if that is the case, then sal's comments about resource gathering in RTS games really does seem to apply: "Gather" is usually not really very inspired, it simply means clicking the "gather" button and waiting. But it's not worth Squad's time to implement all of this simply for the player to click a dialog box. (Which, again, is exactly the problem with science at the moment).

NorthStar:

-The problem with Kethane mod isn't the "waiting" part (which *can* be done when vessels are on rails, by the game keeping track of how long since the vessel was last loaded, and updating accordingly- as KSP Interstellar currently does with ISRU), it's that it's simple and relatively uninspired...

Quote Originally Posted by allmhuran:

-For resources to introduce fun and interesting gameplay, it needs to be a different kind of mechanic. But no-one has, as yet, come up with what that might involve. I mean both the abstract concept and the details of how it would be implemented, so that we see what makes it fun.

NorthStar:

-In-Situ Resource Utilization isn't, and shouldn't, ever be an "active" activity. It's not like you're going to have a Kerbal get out with a shovel and physically start digging through the ground (while that might actually be fun, it would completely break immersion- and be very hard to code the terrain being alterable...)

What makes a Resource-gathering system (ISRU- to use the abbreviation used by NASA) fun and interesting is the engineering challenges you build into it. It should be an engineering challenge- not some sort of piloting challenge...

It's much like building a rocket that gets into orbit- it's not easy, and a lot of thought goes into it- therefore making it challenging... The same needs to be part of any ISRU system...

How? Well, let's say that you find ice deposits on some planet or moon (for starters, they need to make it so you have to FIND randomly-generated resources. That should be the FIRST challenge. They shouldn't be in the same place every game, or everywhere. Kethane's scanning system, while tedious as it doesn't play well with higher time-warps, is the best idea of that mod...) And yes, *ICE*, not "Zenonium" or some silly thing like that. Immersion adds to the fun and suspension of disbelief...

The second challenge should be that the parts to harvest resources in the first place are HEAVY. And specialized. Meaning that it's a challenge just to get the right drill and electrolyzer to that moon with ice in the first place- creating incentive to build heavier lifters (not easy) and whatnot...

The third challenge needs to be operating the equipment in the first place. For instance, ice should mainly only be found on planets and moons that are far from the Sun (the closest locations to Kerbol might be a few craters on the Mun's poles, or at low concentrations on Minmus- much like in KSP Interstellar), though even that should not be an absolute- NASA recently found evidence of ice in permanently dark polar craters on MERCURY. So there should always be a chance of finding it somewhere unusual- which unpredictability would add to the fun and create a REAL feeling of exploration...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/me...f20121129.html

Anyways, back to the ice. Solar panels don't work well when you get far away from the Sun (a proper inverse-square rule should probably be implemented before ISRU- making solar panels even weaker further from Kerbol...) So you would need a LOT of them to melt+electrolyze large amounts of water-ice on an icy moon of Jool or Gas Giant #2 (whenever it's released), for instance. An alternative could be a fission nuclear power (NASA is looking at using them on Callisto and Mars for ISRU, why can't KSP?), but that could pose its own engineering challenged such as a heat radiation system (like in KSP Interstellar).

So far, it probably sounds like I'm talking about a KSP Interstellar clone, with a detection system from Kethane, but I'm NOT (though both mods have good ideas to lend). Here's where things get a bit more interesting... Resources would need to have real relevance to the Science/Reputation system to be fun. I don't just mean it takes a certain amount of Science to get the parts. Resources should be a SOURCE of Science.

That is, the Science Points costs should all be increased (effectively nerfing the existing sources- but actually nerfing them would require a lot more effort I suspect...), and there should be BIG rewards in Science and Reputation Points for discovering a resource in the first place- especially any form of water or ice (after all, the search for water has been a big part of NASA's exploration missions over the past decade- and we've found a surprisingly large amount of it in an awful lot of places we didn't expect...) That would make the Science system feel a little more relevant and interesting, and allow the player to relate KSP to REAL space programs if they were searching for REAL resources... (such as water-ice, methane/CO2-ice, rocks containing bubbles of Xenon like on the Moon, oxygen in atmospheres, and alumina in regoliths...)

There should be specific parts to detect the resources, of course, and the first tier of rewards should be achievable using probes (like the probes that have discovered all water-ice in the solar system so far in real life). but the biggest rewards should come from taking ACTUAL SAMPLES of a resource- whether through soil/water samples (currently implemented) or through atmospheric samples for atmospheric resources (new action/feature). Early on, the most interesting thing about resources should be simply finding them, as it should yield big Science and Reputation rewards...

The next interesting thing about resources should be figuring out ways to use them. There would need to be some diversification of engines, for instance, to include at the least some type of solid-liquid hybrid rocket with intermediate performance characteristics (there are several resources in the real solar system that can be burned in solid powders, Alumina from the Moon only being the most prominent...), and some resources that are only really useful in their raw form as reactant mass for thermal rockets (like ammonia- though it could also be useful to make Hydrazine) or in alternative ion engines (Argon, CO2, and N2), but can be refined into other resources (like CO2 into Kerosene in combination with H2 via the Fischer-Tropsch Cycle, or into methane via the Sabatier reaction). Here, they could take a page out of the book of KSP-Interstellar, with its diverse resources and ways of using them... The key is, though, not every resource should be useful for everything, but every resource should have multiple uses...

I know it sounds like I'm describing a huge encyclopedia of resources- but that should be half the fun. Complexity and (limited) realism should be one of the draws of the system- players should feel a bit like a chemical engineer trying to figure out how to make useful rocket fuel out of local resources, rather than just a Kethane-style "land and refine" system... This would make ISRU a whole complex part of ISRU that players would have to set aside some considerable time to learn to do properly if they wanted to make use of it, much like spaceplanes (most players start with rockets, and learn spaceplanes much later) or learning how to build modular bases off-planet (something *I* still haven't learned, even with a huge fleet currently en-route to Duna to do precisely that...)

So, have the player go through a phase of locating water and other resources in the solar system as an important source of science. Make visiting and obtaining samples of the resources the second step. Make the third step (perhaps only unlockable after a sample of a given resource has been returned to Kerbin- though perhaps probes could somehow be allowed to gather and return samples- though this would make Kerbals even more useless...) actually figuring out how to use the resources. Make this challenging and complex (and not as mundane as processing "Dirt"- make players work with real substrates, like CO2, ammonia, water, methane, hydrogen, and nitrogen), and give rewards in Science and Reputation for developing successful ISRU systems, and you'll have a system that's sure to engage interested players for days of gameplay...

And if you don't like the system? Find it too complex or boring? The beauty is that you don't have to use it- it would be completely optional; as there are plenty of other ways to obtain Science (and will be for Reputation, I'm sure), and you can always just keep relying of fuel tankers or mammoth vessels with staging, like you would have had to do otherwise if you hadn't had the system as an option to play around with...

Regards,

Northstar

2. Quote Originally Posted by Red Iron Crown:

-I'm not sure I'd like the system to be that complex, I certainly don't want to be hauling puzzle pieces around the system just to produce a bit of fuel. Might just be easier to have water be the discoverable resource to harvest, which can then be processed into hydrogen and oxygen for liquid fuel and oxidizer, or processed into hydrogen peroxide for monopropellant.

NorthStar:

-Hydrogen Peroxide is indeed used as a low-efficiency RCS propellent in the real world. It could be in the game as well...

A big part of what I was trying to get at is that some resources could be a lot easier to make with ISRU than others, thus putting a premium on those that are difficult to manufacture, and rewarding players who go through the extra effort to make the harder-to-get stuff...

This would be fun *AND* realistic. For instance, Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) is rather easy to make- but Hydrazine (N2H4) is a more efficient RCS propellent. However, Hydrazine requires an extra step- combining Hydrogen Peroxide with Ammonia- making it a 3rd level product made out of two 2nd-level products (Ammonia, like Hydrogen Peroxide, isn't exactly likely to be found lying around many places- except Eve...)

Thus, players could get as in-depth or simple as they wanted with ISRU. If they just wanted to find ice and electrolyze it for LH2-LOX rocket fuel, for instance, then fine. But if they wanted to go through the complex steps of making Hydrazine or Kerosene on-site, then there could be benefits to match.

One thing that would also be useful, of course, to really make ISRU shine, would be a greater variety of fuels and propellents- so you can have "premium" fuels that are more difficult to make, like Kerosene, but have benefits (Kerosene, for instance, is much denser than LH2- so you can pack a lot more propellent mass, and thus Delta-V, into a given sized/mass fuel can... but it gets less ISP than LH2 when burned wit LOX.) Rather than needing to introduce entirely new parts for the different fuels and such, most of these could be handled with tweakables- much like RealFuels mod currently does with selecting a fuel can to carry Kerosene/LOX vs. LH2/LOX...

There I go mentioning another mod though... It's no coincidence that modders have chosen some of the best ideas to implement, however- otherwise why would they have bothered with the effort?

Quote Originally Posted by Red Iron Crown:

-It may be an ideological difference between us here, in that I'm not really all that interested in resource harvesting being a scavenger hunt and chemistry minigame; I'd prefer it to just be a method to replenish ships at faraway destinations in exchange for some infrastructure deployment. I see where you're coming from about having resource discovery and harvesting being more of a puzzle than a simple mechanic, it just doesn't appeal to me like it does to you (and some others in the thread).

NorthStar:

-If you wanted to make use of ISRU (rather than ignore it), but wanted a more hands-off approach, there would be a solution for that too... Spend a lot of time/effort scouting out a location with multiple useful resources, and build a single integrated (with docking ports in stock, or KAS with mods) ground base that can process all these different resources in one place. If you can find such an ideal location, of course- one might not exist in your save. If not, you could always build a single orbital station somewhere like the Jool system, with all the needed refineries, and just transport various raw materials to it (from the different moons) to make what you need.

And, like I said, part of the fun/complexity would be that there would usually be an "easy solution" and an "efficient/best solution"- with the latter requiring a lot more effort on the player's part, but getting you more useful fuels, or higher production rates.

In ISRU, there's always a simple way to brute-force it, and a complex way to be efficient. Need lots of fuel for propellent, and O2 for life support and Oxidizer, on Duna, for instance? You *could* set up a simple brute-force station with a lot of power to simply mine lots of water-ice, and simply electrolyze it to get all the H2 and O2 you could ever want, for low-density, high-ISP chemical propellent (though you might have to cryogenically store it in real life, I doubt this would ever be added in-game, even though it would just be a matter of costing EC/s...)

*OR* you could take the same H2 and O2, and combine it with CO2 harvested from the atmosphere in the Sabatier Reaction to make methane (CH4- which can pack more densely into fuel cans than H2) and more water (H2O- which you can electrolyze for more H2 and O2).

*OR* if you're REALLY ambitious, you could combine the H2 with CO2 in the Reverse Water Gas Shift Reaction to get H2O and CO, and then combine the CO with H2 in the Fischer-Tropsch Reaction to make Kerosene (6-12 Carbon hydrocarbon mixture), which can be packed even more densely into fuel cans for even more Delta-V, but lower ISP...

The sky and your imagination (and your available equipment/storage space) is the limit with In Situ Resource Utilization! It's an end-game feature that could be expanded as long and as far as the devs want (all the way to making plastics with the Fischer-Tropsch Reaction for a very different type of resource harvesting: greenhouses for life-support...)

Of course, it would have to start simple. But it's one of those features that could be expanded and expanded and expanded upon whenever the devs got bored with other stuff, if ISRU turned out to be a hit with players... And if not, it could always be a nice supplemental feature that nobody would really have to use if they didn't want to...

I've said quite enough for a while, so let me wind up by saying I truly hope the devs re-consider adding "Resources" (ISRU) some day soon... I just hope it'll get a chance to shine someday- though of course not until other "more important" things are improved (like improved aerodynamics, Career Mode, and at the least diversifying the fuels a bit more- so you can choose to use Kerosene/LOX vs. CH4/LOX vs. LH2/LOX with tweakables at the very least...)

Regards,

Northstar

[Psykikk]

I am so looking forward for this. MKS/OKS are mainstay mods in all my KSP saves already, so I am really excited.

I have to admit I didn´t read all replies in the thread, but I was wondering if you plan to also add a mechanic to monetize any ressources / refined materials

by just shipping them somewhere and selling them ?

I proposed something like this in the request forum before but never got any response...

I imagine some part or a permanent orbital station where you can dock and trasfer / sell the harvested stuff.

I know that funds right now don´t really matter that much...but I a Ferenghi at heart and love to play to simply amass wealth and richness.....

[dlrk]

Which one? The fact that it explodes ships right now in certain versions, inclusion of ModStats, or the licensing?

The middle, the other two are good points

[nismobg]

I am so looking forward for this. MKS/OKS are mainstay mods in all my KSP saves already, so I am really excited.

I have to admit I didn´t read all replies in the thread, but I was wondering if you plan to also add a mechanic to monetize any ressources / refined materials

by just shipping them somewhere and selling them ?

I proposed something like this in the request forum before but never got any response...

I imagine some part or a permanent orbital station where you can dock and trasfer / sell the harvested stuff.

I know that funds right now don´t really matter that much...but I a Ferenghi at heart and love to play to simply amass wealth and richness.....

Maybe to sell you need to be docked in the Kerbins SOI, i like it. And certain high end stuff can be mined only out of Kerbins SOI. And a full load of goods can give you enough dough for just an extra transport container, so there is an actual progression.

[tygoo7]

This mod looks like it's going to be great! I am looking forward to using this!

[Smurfalot]

Major feature request: The randomly placed deposits often end up in the middle of oceans, this mod really needs at the bare minimum some means for drilling resources deposited on the ocean floor.

If you get really ambitious you can make a floating (or even submerged) colony set to compliment MKS/OKS.

[RoverDude]

Really looking forward to this, RoverDude's work has been very good so far. I also can't wait to produce some parts for this.

DO IT!!! I really want this to be a community driven thing

Can I add an idea for asteroids?

Add a module to an asteroid that places a resource, in the asteroid. Make it so you can't "transfer" the resource out, without the use of an Zero-G Drill.

Reduce the base-mass of an asteroid, and replace that with the Asteroid-Bound Karbonite. So as you mine the Karbonite out; the mass is shifted from the asteroid, to your storage container.

The final result should be a significantly lighter asteroid once you have shifted it into tanks and sent it on its way!

Already done Hollow Asteroids. Wrapping that mod up, and it gets a nice Karbonite tank now

Yes, I like this colour scheme. It looks most... awesome.

http://nertea.the3rdage.net/ksp/karbonite2.png

I concur. This is absolutely spectacular.

Very cool thoughts here. I love the idea of mining fuel at Jool. Perhaps allow for minor (and while-not-focused) collection so long as you can nail an orbit within a few kilometers of Jool's atmosphere?

Though now that I think about it, that probably wouldn't be all that productive, considering the fuel costs to meet up with the mining ship.

Cloud harvesters are on the list, both in the form of ones on rails with over time collection, and more active ones that can dip in and then blast back out for better rewards (you could do a high speed aerobrake, harvest as you blast through, then on the Ap, burn to get back on rails). A mechanism where the faster you blast through the atmosphere the more resource you harvest would be wildly entertaining and lead to some very interesting designs.

I have zero experience modding, coding, etc. So it's just an idea and maybe tell me why it can't work. Maybe Kerbonite can be found at high altitudes in any planet with an atmosphere. The denser the atmosphere the more plentiful the Kerbonite. So basically could you set the values or quantities of Kerbonite at minimum and maximum altitudes on any planet with an atmosphere. Jool being the most plentiful and Duna being the least. I think the Interplanetary Mod does something like that with antimatter. Maybe high levels of Kerbonite can be found around the sun? Like I said this is just my unexperienced 2 cents. You guys could make a pretty cool looking ram scoop or Bussard Collecter.

I want to see how the default ORS collector works, since I will have to poke around anyway to see how it handles speed and atmospheric collection.

I am so looking forward for this. MKS/OKS are mainstay mods in all my KSP saves already, so I am really excited.

I have to admit I didn´t read all replies in the thread, but I was wondering if you plan to also add a mechanic to monetize any ressources / refined materials

by just shipping them somewhere and selling them ?

I proposed something like this in the request forum before but never got any response...

I imagine some part or a permanent orbital station where you can dock and trasfer / sell the harvested stuff.

I know that funds right now don´t really matter that much...but I a Ferenghi at heart and love to play to simply amass wealth and richness.....

You would get Funds just through recovery - so you could in theory just decouple and parachute in tanks full of Karbonite onto Kerbin and collect your funds.

The middle, the other two are good points

Some debeate the middle one as well, whether from privacy concerns or purely from being rubbed the wrong way over a perceived entitlement to their date. It could have been handled better, but in any event has resulted in the community equivelant of poking a bear with a stick. Sometimes poking the bear is good, it results in innovation. Honestly, I had considered taking on KAS previously, purely because of licensing, but it's low on my list right now. And yes, that implies that at some point, I may very well build something in that same problem space that the communty can own.

Maybe to sell you need to be docked in the Kerbins SOI, i like it. And certain high end stuff can be mined only out of Kerbins SOI. And a full load of goods can give you enough dough for just an extra transport container, so there is an actual progression.

Simple is good - vessel recovery handles this already The variance is in the value of what you ship back (examples being the exotic minerals and rare metals in MKS/OKS which are there purley to make funds once I run through their configs).

[RoverDude]

Major feature request: The randomly placed deposits often end up in the middle of oceans, this mod really needs at the bare minimum some means for drilling resources deposited on the ocean floor.

If you get really ambitious you can make a floating (or even submerged) colony set to compliment MKS/OKS.

Waterworld?

Althiough it would probably be more of making a buoyant Module Base.

I need to see how ORS handles this stock. What's nice is that we control the maps (though the random generation being done by Arrowstar is shaping up nicely!), and ORS has no issues with resources running out, which is helpful.

[Smurfalot]

Dunno, somone suggest something

Obviously the Khemical formula should be KaH-BO₂M

5. GMTA - I had that on my parts notes - a Karbonite-fueled engine series in 0.625/1.25/2.5/3.75 form factors. Comparable ISP to stock, so no benefit other than saving conversion time. On a side note, in general Karbonite will be pretty much the same density/efficiency/etc. as using LFO

Green Mountain Transit Agency?

7. ORS should solve the extraction problem, and in the case of Laythe, it may be that in it's case all oceans have trace Karbonite concentrations. I'm thinking make each planet have a unique combination of Karbonite in the land, sea, and air to lend variety.

I think the Karbonite-fueled engines should have involve at least some minimal refining to use. I would not think you could just pump raw karbonite into an engine with all those impurities? That being said, there should be some advantage to going through all the trouble, perhaps it is somewhat more energy dense/efficient than conventional fuels. Thus making it worth your time to set up a refinery on Eve to supply its orbital fueling station, but not so much better that it unbalances the game...

You can have air scoops and concentration units for atmospheric collection, Suction Filters and Distillation units for "ocean" collection and the normal drills and refineries for use on land.

Same stuff, but different concentrations, thicker atmospheres might logically have more like on Eve and perhaps Jool has crazy amounts of gaseous Karbonite since it is a gas giant. Laythe, Eve and Kerbin would be the obvious places to find aqueous Karbonite.

Land collection from the various rocky bodies would have their own characteristics of course...perhaps even a special "Frozen" Karbonite only found on the cold distant planets that can be used for food preservation and cryo-transport of prisoners kerbals on long flights as mentioned previously.

Picture if this was Jeb in Karbonite Cryo:

Edited July 23, 2014 by Smurfalot

[Carcharhinidae]

hmm.. I think that the idea of dropping containers with a parachute onto kerbin would be cool. but doesn't everything that hits the atmosphere outside a few klom from an active vessel just disapear?

[Floppster]

Can you map the biomes for resource generation(specific biomes = specific resources)? Maybe implement the custom biomes mod.

This would be awesome, first thought was about the Mun, that you might find solid Karbonite in the midlands or so and liquid in the largest craters due to the remaining heat from impacts or something.

[Floppster]

hmm.. I think that the idea of dropping containers with a parachute onto kerbin would be cool. but doesn't everything that hits the atmosphere outside a few klom from an active vessel just disapear?

magico13 made KCT and released a part of it, StageRecovery as an independent mod. This would make orbital drops possible and awesome.

Fire off a Karbonite container on a collision course with Kerbin, make sure it has parachutes and you're golden.

Like literally, you would rake in cash and would probably be able to cover yourself in gold.