A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[Just Jim]

4 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Also, find someone you can trust that you can throw ideas at and get feedback. For me, I use @Just Jim. He is a dear friend who I trust not to spill the beans. There are times I will throw an idea at him and if the feedback I get isn't what I expected, then I simply shelve that idea (on an index card) and revisit it later. There are even times he has given me gentile nudges about something I might have forgotten about.

Yeah... I can't agree more. @adsii1970 and I talk all the time privately, and have become really good friends... mostly because we share a lot of nerdy interests... lol... 

And what he said goes both ways, I throw ideas by him all the time, because I know he can keep a secret, and I can get an honest answer. Sometimes we just talk about silly stuff... and an idea will pop into one or the other of our heads... And sometimes both of us will have the same quirky idea at the same time. 

[adsii1970]

54 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

And what he said goes both ways, I throw ideas by him all the time, because I know he can keep a secret, and I can get an honest answer. Sometimes we just talk about silly stuff... and an idea will pop into one or the other of our heads... And sometimes both of us will have the same quirky idea at the same time. 

I didn't want to speak out of turn was why I didn't mention it.  

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by adsii1970

[Alpha 360]

Hello TWW! Or what you guys here call this thread. I have been staying up in the mission reports section, but I do believe I have enough writing experience to join onto this thread.

[CatastrophicFailure]

11 hours ago, KSK said:

Okay. Strunk & White recommend not spelling out numbers unless a character is using them in speech.

So Jeb could be a reservist in the 305th Air Squadron but presumably might refer to it in conversation as the three-oh-fifth.

Not completely sure I like that but the source is impeccable.

 

Bingo, that's exactly what I needed, thanx. 

 

I have also learned that I really need to learn how to take notes.  Every teacher and professor since high school has echoed this My own note-taking system generally involves thinking about stuff over and over again and hoping some of it sticks. What ends up on the page is often quite different than the initial idea.  It never ceases to impress (and occasionally annoy) me how authors can break up their story into dozens of different threads and have them all come out in the same place.

 

39 minutes ago, Alpha 360 said:

Hello TWW! Or what you guys here call this thread. I have been staying up in the mission reports section, but I do believe I have enough writing experience to join onto this thread.

Everyone's welcome here.  The best way to learn about writing is just doing so, the rest is details. 

[KSK]

17 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Little details... these are how I fill out the chapters.... And honestly, half the time I don't know I'm going to add in something new until it happens to feel right

I hear that. Sometimes I'm re-reading a chapter to check for continuity issues with the chapter-in-progress and it's the little things that stand out. Not necessarily because they're any good but more from a 'where the flarp did that come from' perspective. And sometimes the little details are great because they can spark off a whole slew of one-off lines, points to refer back to later, or bits of banter between characters.

As an example, spiced coffee is a thing on my version of Kerbin. Jeb is rather fond of anise in his coffee. Gene is something of a coffee snob and prefers his caffeine black, straight up and ideally ground fresh from quality beans and served in fine china. This leads to some differences of opinion. Its not any sort of plot point but it does add some detail to a couple of scenes. It also prompted a bunch of notes on a particular range of famous (and fragile) coffee cups made in one part of Kerbin and revered amongst coffee aficionados for their beneficial effects on the brew. And yeah, the notes include the technical reasons for those effects.   It's maybe for the best that all the extraneous detail remains confined to my notes file for now.

16 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Also, find someone you can trust that you can throw ideas at and get feedback.

This. Find two someones if you can. I've been lucky enough to have @JakeGrey's writing to riff off early on and, more recently to have @Ten Key and @CatastrophicFailure for idea bouncing and feedback. There's nothing quite so useful as being told that an idea doesn't quite ring true and needs a bit more baking,  or that such-and-such a character probably wouldn't react like this in the scene you've just written given the events of three chapters previously.

[adsii1970]

29 minutes ago, KSK said:

There's nothing quite so useful as being told that an idea doesn't quite ring true and needs a bit more baking,  or that such-and-such a character probably wouldn't react like this in the scene you've just written given the events of three chapters previously.

And that's one of the more difficult things - giving each character their own identity.

[Just Jim]

1 hour ago, KSK said:

As an example, spiced coffee is a thing on my version of Kerbin. Jeb is rather fond of anise in his coffee. Gene is something of a coffee snob and prefers his caffeine black, straight up and ideally ground fresh from quality beans and served in fine china. This leads to some differences of opinion. Its not any sort of plot point but it does add some detail to a couple of scenes. It also prompted a bunch of notes on a particular range of famous (and fragile) coffee cups made in one part of Kerbin and revered amongst coffee aficionados for their beneficial effects on the brew. And yeah, the notes include the technical reasons for those effects.   It's maybe for the best that all the extraneous detail remains confined to my notes file for now.

To build on this a bit, I have the same back and forth between a couple characters, and one in particular that was totally inspired by a reader's comment.  

Around chapter 80 Emiko introduces young Theo, who is experimenting with a prototype hydroponic garden, to an Earth delicacy called ranch dressing!  Theo takes one bite with a raw karrot, and is completely blown away... Like being an Iron Chef Judge when the secret ingredient is Lobster and Truffles... hehehe... this is the most amazing snack food ever!

However.... after I posted the chapter someone... and I apologize for not remembering off-hand who... someone commented about the Ranch dressing part:

"Ranch??  Ewwww... blech!!!"  

Or something to that effect... hehehe

OK, fair enough, not everyone likes the same thing... But then I had a fun thought, and decided to play around with this a bit. And my next chapter I decided while Theo loved ranch dressing, his twin-sister Gem thought it was the most disgusting thing she's ever seen, smelled, or tasted!  hehehe

Sometimes the readers have some great inspirations... it's wise to pay attention to them... 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Just Jim

[steuben]

The little details are part of the fun of building a 'verse. It's easier to add those little things when the framework is given to us. But they add so much to the story. Carving those details when building a 'verse from whole cloth is an extra layer of work that never seems worth it at the time... until you read Dune, The Lord of the Rings, etc. A filled in 'verse provides much more room then and empty one.

[adsii1970]

3 hours ago, steuben said:

The little details are part of the fun of building a 'verse. It's easier to add those little things when the framework is given to us. But they add so much to the story. Carving those details when building a 'verse from whole cloth is an extra layer of work that never seems worth it at the time... until you read Dune, The Lord of the Rings, etc. A filled in 'verse provides much more room then and empty one.

Actually, I disagree with this. For instance, if you read my story and then read @Just Jim's The Saga of Emiko Station, although I do reference his work in mine, they are totally separate entities. If we had a framework, as you speak of, then there could be no real diversity. There is tremendous freedom for imagination and great storytelling without any sort of framework other than:

• Kermen (or Kerbals) are green.
• There are male and female Kermen, but no babies or offspring.
• Kermen love space and often have serious issues when designing spacecraft.
• Not all Kermen are Bad$
• There are ruins on Kerbin, there are monoliths everywhere...

And with those, you, as the writer, can choose how those elements fit into your Kerbiverse. I enjoy adding the bits of history, social organization, and other things that are unique to the world that Kerny lives in. And most of all, it gives the reader diversity. While there may be similar stories, no two handle certain aspects of Kerbin the same. In fact, if you read my story, I even include some backstory about why there are no settlements on Kerbin until...

[KSK]

22 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Actually, I disagree with this. For instance, if you read my story and then read @Just Jim's The Saga of Emiko Station, although I do reference his work in mine, they are totally separate entities. If we had a framework, as you speak of, then there could be no real diversity. There is tremendous freedom for imagination and great storytelling without any sort of framework other than:

• Kermen (or Kerbals) are green.
• There are male and female Kermen, but no babies or offspring.
• Kermen love space and often have serious issues when designing spacecraft.
• Not all Kermen are Bad$
• There are ruins on Kerbin, there are monoliths everywhere...

And with those, you, as the writer, can choose how those elements fit into your Kerbiverse. I enjoy adding the bits of history, social organization, and other things that are unique to the world that Kerny lives in. And most of all, it gives the reader diversity. While there may be similar stories, no two handle certain aspects of Kerbin the same. In fact, if you read my story, I even include some backstory about why there are no settlements on Kerbin until...

And even some of that is pretty malleable, depending on whether you regard stuff like no offspring and no settlements on Kerbin as canon or just stuff that isn't particularly germane to the game and so has been skipped over (quite understandably) by Squad. 

[steuben]

adsii1970 you're looking at the wrong scale. Narrative Filigree is the part of the concept I'm after. Science Fiction Hardness is another part. All under the umbrella of World Building. I'm recalling an essay I read somewhere, or maybe I'm blending essays.  To distill it out; the 'verse has FTL. But arbitrary point to arbitrary point FTL is pretty sucky from a plot point of view. So constraint add a constraint: if the hyperspace gradient is greater than 3.14 units the fuel costs of FTL rise nearly exponentially and you risk the drive melting... very aggressively.  Now you have two things, a workable plot with a lower risk of plotholes and more interesting verse. Tramp traders will pop out with a lower gradient and coast in. Military ships can go routinely go higher say 6. But, can push 7.5 if they're willing to spend three months in dry dock afterwards.  At this point it sounds like an alright 'verse, and at least sounds like it will be internal consistent. If we call the unit a  Mikl, after the initials of the two folks who discovered it.  Another constraint. Fuller 'verse. More interesting. They were working independently on opposite sides of a very antagonistic geo-political situation.  Another constraint. Fuller 'verse. More interesting. More stock from the plot pot.

We all have a vehicle, four wheels, engine in the front, trunk in the back. The framework provided by KSP. But how many seats, trunk space, and those silly hydraulic thingies and underglow lights, well that's writer's choice. We all have different cars.

[CatastrophicFailure]

8 minutes ago, steuben said:

We all have a vehicle, four wheels, engine in the front, trunk in the back. The framework provided by KSP. But how many seats, trunk space, and those silly hydraulic thingies and underglow lights, well that's writer's choice. We all have different cars.

Then someone throws a ‘68 Beetle in the mix and it gets really interesting... 

Edited January 11, 2018 by CatastrophicFailure

[SiriusRocketry]

12 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Then someone throws a ‘68 Beetle in the mix and it gets really interesting... 

Beetle? BEETLE?

 

pardon me while I projectile vomit, good sir.

[CatastrophicFailure]

21 minutes ago, SiriusRocketry said:

Beetle? BEETLE?

 

pardon me while I projectile vomit, good sir.

. . . ? 

[SiriusRocketry]

Haha @CatastrophicFailure it's just a reference to the VW Beetle being utterly LOATHED by car enthusiasts such as myself.

[KSK]

@CatastrophicFailure - I'll see that Beetle and raise you a Sinclair C5 and a Robin Reliant.  

[CatastrophicFailure]

6 minutes ago, KSK said:

@CatastrophicFailure - I'll see that Beetle and raise you a Sinclair C5 and a Robin Reliant.  

Careful, there. I'm sure you know what happened the last time someone tried to raise a Robin Reliant... 

[KSK]

I think I missed that one...

And on a completely unrelated note, I recently strayed onto another creative writing thread, in another corner of the internet, which turned into a bit of a 'my first character was less clichéd than yours' competition. I refrained from adding my 2p worth but it occurred to me that I could have perfectly honestly posted that one of my first characters is a 3000 year old copse of trees (possibly - actual age unknown) with mind control powers and a history of anger management issues.

That, right there, is why I love speculative fiction.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by KSK

[SiriusRocketry]

8 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Careful, there. I'm sure you know what happened the last time someone tried to raise a Robin Reliant... 

Actually, that's the closest we're going to get to KSP in this discussion

[Just Jim]

7 hours ago, KSK said:

I refrained from adding my 2p worth but it occurred to me that I could have perfectly honestly posted that one of my first characters is a 3000 year old copse of trees (possibly - actual age unknown) with mind control powers and a history of anger management issues.

And one of my first, and arguably most memorable, is a brain in a pod!!!  

One thing about characters, and filling out details, I should mention, is I find it quite helpful to base some of my characters on some of my own favorites, both fictional and real.

For instance, Emiko was inspired by River Tam, from Firefly and mostly from the movie Serenity.

 

And Commander Piper... dearest Piper, she's really heavily based on Commander Susan Ivanova, from Babylon 5:

 

 

There are a lot of others, but I'm not going to list them all. The reason I bring it up is I find this really helpful when I'm writing my characters, and their own little quirks. Emiko, like River Tam, is lost half of the time... reasons still unknown. And Piper, like Ivanova, is a force of nature, and not one to mess with, unless you have a bit of a death-wish...

If your character(s) are based on one of your personal favorites from somewhere else, it's a lot easier to create their own personality.  

[Angelo Kerman]

Lately I have been doing that too... Captain James T Kerman is of course Captain Kirk but crossed with Deke Slayton with PTSD and a hatred of vonKermans that got him into trouble.

Munvan is a stereotyped surfer crossed with Brian May from Queen (rocker, song writer, astrophysicist).

Kelbin is, well I don’t really have someone that I based him on, but he’s probably going to end up like John Young mixed with Luke Shywalker. He’s been shouldered with command and he’s making mistakes until he gains experience.

And JJ Kerman is JJ Abrams with a bit of Gene Roddenberry and Jules Verne. He can bring his visions to life in more ways than one...

Lastly, Kuzzter is @Kuzzter mixed with Elon Musk and Bill Gates and a strong moral compass. Offensively rich, scifi writer turned tech mogul, and unafraid of using his wealth to improve the lives of others. Think One Percent who actually gives a damn.

Another thing I’m toying with is that the good guys aren’t as above board as, say, Star fleet. James accepted a bribe and got caught. The Kerman States accuses others of having nukes and hides their own. It’s giving more for me to work with.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Angel-125

[Just Jim]

33 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Lastly, Kuzzter is @Kuzzter mixed with Elon Musk and Bill Gates and a strong moral compass. Offensively rich, scifi writer turned tech mogul, and unafraid of using his wealth to improve the lives of others. Think One Percent who actually gives a damn.

It's funny, my Kuzzter character is also obviously a tribute to our dear friend @Kuzzter... but in Emiko Station, he's sort of evolved into my Captain Kirk type... without the bad acting... lmao... He's (mostly) a good guy, but also isn't afraid to bend, or sometimes completely ignore, the rules to get the job done. And he enjoys being a Captain, and likes having a little fun now and then.

I have other characters named after forum members, including @Darth Badie, @obney kerman, and most recently @Lo Var Lachland... And, of course, Angelo Kerman, who I believe you know @Angel-125... lol, and a few others. But because I've never actually met Badie or Obney or the rest, I can only sort of guess at personalities... and hope I do them justice.  

[adsii1970]

I've also had a few characters named after forum members. There's @Kuzzter, who happens to be the best tracking officer at the KSC. I did give a description of his character in a off-topic thread. Then there's @obney kerman, who is a Major who is in charge of the Training Academy. He's an engineer but has a very rough attitude and demands professionalism from all. And then there's @Just Jim's namesake, J. Jim. And he's, well, he's...  

@Lo Var Lachland will be memorialized with the orbital space station Lachland, which will be at the edge of Kerbin orbit - beyond Minmus. But that's in a future chapter.

[DarkOwl57]

1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

And one of my first, and arguably most memorable, is a brain in a pod!!!  

Talking about first characters? Our favorite, lovable, possibly-slightly-maybe-just-a-little-bit-insane kerbal.... Jeb!

[obney kerman]

1 hour ago, Just Jim said:

and hope I do them justice

Just make me sarcastic and you've got it.

1 hour ago, adsii1970 said:

Then there's @obney kerman, who is a Major who is in charge of the Training Academy. He's an engineer but has a very rough attitude and demands professionalism from all.

Very good. You have passed... for now.