Lord of the Rings - headscratcher

[Shpaget]

Beware, spoilers.

Disclaimer: I would certainly not describe myself as proficient in the lore, and have never read the books in their entirety, so what I'm asking here is based just on the movies (mostly the original trilogy). These questions may be answered in the books, so forgive me if they are.

Why did Sauron "die" when Isildur cut off his finger with the Ring? Or more to the point, why did Frodo not die when Gollum bit off his finger with the Ring?

Why did Elrond allow Isildur to keep the Ring when he obviously knew it was evil and had to be destroyed.? It was not Isildur's to keep. Why did Elrond not call a meeting of kings/rulers and basically force the destruction of the One Ring (and all other rings).

Bilbo had the Ring for about 60 years and during that time he hadn't aged as one would expect, according to Gandalf. As soon as he gave the Ring to Frodo he started aging again, and can be seen as a very old guy some 20 years later (Frodo had the Ring for about 20 years before he set off for Mordor). So, Gollum was separated from the Ring for about 80 years, yet he hasn't changed a bit since the day he lost it. Why didn't Gollum resume to age and likely die in those 80 years?

Gandalf seems to have the ability to summon the giant eagles whenever he needs to, yet he's always in some hurry and has to ride the comparatively slow Shadowfax, or even worse, the ponies. He also runs a lot. Why didn't he take one eagle and just airlifted Frodo to the volcano? The whole business would be over in a jiffy, countless lives would be spared.

When Aragorn got the undead army to fight for him and after the battle for Minas Tirith, why didn't he ask them to cleanse the Mordor? Such a waste of manpower.

Why do Nazgul bother with horses when they have those awesome flying things at their disposal?

All the time we hear about elvish metalworks (swords, armor...) yet we never see their infrastructure. Where are their mines and forges? Elves don't really sound like a race that does a lot of coal mining - an absolute necessity for forging, yet they are the ones that make the best stuff, while dwarfs, the natural builders and a lot more aggressive race, are completely neglected in this regard.

[Superfluous J]

19 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Why did Sauron "die" when Isildur cut off his finger with the Ring? Or more to the point, why did Frodo not die when Gollum bit off his finger with the Ring?

Sauron put all of his power into the ring, so with it he could control the rings he gave to everybody else. He basically took a huge risk and put all his eggs in one basket, in a gambit to take over the world. Chopping off his finger was like upending his egg basket.

Frodo was just carrying the ring. It had corrupted him - sure - but it wasn't holding all his power. His power - as it was - was actually separate from the ring and was the only thing that allowed him to hold it for that long.

23 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Why did Elrond allow Isildur to keep the Ring when he obviously knew it was evil and had to be destroyed.? It was not Isildur's to keep. Why did Elrond not call a meeting of kings/rulers and basically force the destruction of the One Ring (and all other rings).

I don't know this one, as it's been quite a while since I read the books. But I think Elrond (and everybody) didn't actually know to what extent the Ring's power was. Also, even then the Elves' rule over the world was waning (I think by their choice) and perhaps he didn't feel it was his right to make that decision.

25 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Gollum was separated from the Ring for about 80 years, yet he hasn't changed a bit since the day he lost it. Why didn't Gollum resume to age and likely die in those 80 years?

They never said. I suppose Gollum was so corrupted by the ring that its power had overtaken him fully. Bilbo, on the other hand, "got better" when the ring was removed from his presence. Aging wasn't a consequence of losing the ring so much as him being "cured" of the evil.

26 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Gandalf seems to have the ability to summon the giant eagles whenever he needs to, yet he's always in some hurry and has to ride the comparatively slow Shadowfax, or even worse, the ponies. He also runs a lot. Why didn't he take one eagle and just airlifted Frodo to the volcano? The whole business would be over in a jiffy, countless lives would be spared.

This has been debated for decades. I won't go into it here as I've no strong opinion about it. Tolkien wanted Frodo to almost die and have no hope and then be saved. "I know. Eagles!" and bam.

28 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

When Aragorn got the undead army to fight for him and after the battle for Minas Tirith, why didn't he ask them to cleanse the Mordor? Such a waste of manpower.

From what I remember of the books, he released them to die once they helped win the battle, which was their payment for both helping him and also not killing him when they found him originally.

29 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Why do Nazgul bother with horses when they have those awesome flying things at their disposal?

They didn't in the first books. LotR is a bit of a parallel of WW1, and the Nazgul are the elite soldiers. At the start, they didn't have the Magic/Technology to fly, and by the end they did. Also, I think again Tolkien didn't think of it until later.

31 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

All the time we hear about elvish metalworks (swords, armor...) yet we never see their infrastructure. Where are their mines and forges? Elves don't really sound like a race that does a lot of coal mining - an absolute necessity for forging, yet they are the ones that make the best stuff, while dwarfs, the natural builders and a lot more aggressive race, are completely neglected in this regard.

I always thought of the Elves as the "First world" craftsmen. They take highly refined materials and create high-grade items. Dwarves are more third-world (though not exactly because they had great halls and kingdoms) and go more for utility and not so much for froo-froo, and prefer to get their own materials for smelting. They'd rather have 1000 iron axes than a single ornate magical sword.

[razark]

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

Why did Elrond allow Isildur to keep the Ring when he obviously knew it was evil and had to be destroyed.?

Because that would have made for a very short story.

 

35 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Bilbo, on the other hand, "got better" when the ring was removed from his presence.

I'll add that, in the end, Bilbo gave up the ring of his own free will.  Gollum did not.  Having been with the ring for longer, he was much more affected by it.

 

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

Why didn't he take one eagle and just airlifted Frodo to the volcano?

Again, this would have made for a very short story.  Plus, there's something about the eagles being a proud race that don't like being demanded about as a taxi service.

 

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

Why do Nazgul bother with horses when they have those awesome flying things at their disposal?

At the beginning, the Nazgul were trying to avoid notice.  It's easier to find the ring-bearer when he's not amongst a population that's freaking out because of black-robed evil beings flying about.  It's easier for them to ride up to a farmer and ask about Baggins than to land a wyvern on the doorstep and actually get someone to answer the door.

 

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

All the time we hear about elvish metalworks (swords, armor...) yet we never see their infrastructure. Where are their mines and forges? Elves don't really sound like a race that does a lot of coal mining - an absolute necessity for forging, yet they are the ones that make the best stuff, while dwarfs, the natural builders and a lot more aggressive race, are completely neglected in this regard.

The elves and dwarves need to be different in more than height and beards.  Also, remember the password to the door into Moria?  The elves and dwarves used to have better relations.

[pincushionman]

7 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Gandalf seems to have the ability to summon the giant eagles whenever he needs to, yet he's always in some hurry and has to ride the comparatively slow Shadowfax, or even worse, the ponies. He also runs a lot. Why didn't he take one eagle and just airlifted Frodo to the volcano? The whole business would be over in a jiffy, countless lives would be spared.

I have read that a fan asked Tolkien that very thing, and he said something like "Well, I...um...hrm. Didn't think of that possibility." Later on he concluded that the Mordor forces, which did have flying mounts, were savvy enough to keep a watch on the eagles as a matter of course, and an eagle would be easy to spot, especially if OH MY GOD IT HAS THE RING TOO

[Shpaget]

Sauron putting all of his power into the ring sounds like a decent explanation, but as you said, a huge risk, especially if you intend on fighting in the front lines as Sauron did, instead of staying in the back and sending countless armies he had at his disposal.

IMO, the eagles being acting as deus ex machina several times is a cheap and uninspired way to get characters out of a pickle. Tolkien really messed up that. Yes, the concept is used in so widely used in every genre of fiction ever written yet it somehow, I think it should be avoided. Eagles were introduced to save Gandalf from Isengard, and they should have never reappeared again, yet they are used over and over again.

I accept the explanation of elves trading with dwarves. Sounds ok.

[KSK]

14 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Beware, spoilers.

Disclaimer: I would certainly not describe myself as proficient in the lore, and have never read the books in their entirety, so what I'm asking here is based just on the movies (mostly the original trilogy). These questions may be answered in the books, so forgive me if they are.

Why did Elrond allow Isildur to keep the Ring when he obviously knew it was evil and had to be destroyed.? It was not Isildur's to keep. Why did Elrond not call a meeting of kings/rulers and basically force the destruction of the One Ring (and all other rings).

I don't think it was anybody's to keep. Besides, Isildur was a proud and mighty king in his own right and a Numenorean to boot (the elder race of Men - think Aragorn only much, much more so.) Taking the Ring from Isildur by force would have been physically difficult even for Elrond. Basically, if Isildur wasn't going to give it up voluntarily, forcing its destruction wasn't going to happen. Just to make things that little bit tougher, the Great Rings afforded power according to the strength of their wielder - and, I'm guessing, exerted a corresponding hold over their wielder. Remember the bit in the film, where Galadriel refuses to accept the Ring from Frodo because she knows it would corrupt her?

Bilbo giving up the ring of his own free will was unprecedented (and if you're being uncharitable, another cheap way of moving the story on) and was only possible because he was a hobbit (who are repeatedly called out in the books for being tougher than they look) and because he wasn't otherwise powerful. Isildur was extremely powerful and the chance of him relinquishing the Ring was essentially zero.

If somebody had managed to kill Isildur (for the greater good of taking the Ring from him to destroy it), then my guess is that the killing to knowingly gain ownership of the ring is likely to be a rather quick way of bringing yourself under its influence, thus swapping one problem for another.

Edited August 10, 2016 by KSK

[Just Jim]

5 minutes ago, KSK said:

I don't think it was anybody's to keep. Besides, Isildur was a proud and mighty king in his own right and a Numenorean to boot (the elder race of Men - think Aragorn only much, much more so.) Taking the Ring from Isildur by force would have been physically difficult even for Elrond. Basically, if Isildur wasn't going to give it up voluntarily, forcing its destruction wasn't going to happen. Just to make things that little bit tougher, the Great Rings afforded power according to the strength of their wielder - and, I'm guessing, exerted a corresponding hold over their wielder. Remember the bit in the film, where Galadriel refuses to accept the Ring from Frodo because she knows it would corrupt her?

I agree.  Near the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo also tries to give the ring to Gandalf, and he refuses to even touch it, saying something along the lines of "Do not tempt me further!"  Gandalf knew.... 

My guess is even back then Elrond, who wore one of the elvish rings I believe, knew better than to touch it, or attempt to force it from Isildur.

 

[storm_soldier2377]

20 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Why did Elrond allow Isildur to keep the Ring when he obviously knew it was evil and had to be destroyed.? It was not Isildur's to keep. Why did Elrond not call a meeting of kings/rulers and basically force the destruction of the One Ring (and all other rings).

Note the part where Elrond and Isildur goes to the crack of Mount Doom doesn't happen in the book as far as I am aware(Never read the book but I'm a big fan of the movies and have read up quite a lot about it). Anyway, while I can't quite give you definitive answers, I'm going along with some guesses: Maybe he was afraid it would start a war. Middle Earth has just been run over with war, maybe he thought it was best not to create tensions. Maybe Elrond thought that Sauron was vanquished after he had his finger cut off.

 

20 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Gandalf seems to have the ability to summon the giant eagles whenever he needs to, yet he's always in some hurry and has to ride the comparatively slow Shadowfax, or even worse, the ponies. He also runs a lot. Why didn't he take one eagle and just airlifted Frodo to the volcano? The whole business would be over in a jiffy, countless lives would be spared.

I've heard this one being explained as the eagles being friends doing occasional favors for Gandalf rather than beings summoned at will. They are also sapient creatures that will covet the Ring just like anybody else.

Edited August 10, 2016 by storm_soldier2377

[Vanamonde]

In addition to what others have said, the One Ring causes people to desire to take it for themselves, so they end up fighting each other over it. (You see that happen to Smeagol and Deagol.) So for Elrond to try to force Isuldur to give up the ring would have put Elrond partially under the ring's power, and made an enemy out of ally Isuldur. 

The One Ring slowed Gollum's aging, but didn't stop it. 

The Eagles: There are a set of demi-gods which look out for the physical world, and the eagles work for them. These demi-gods tried to rule the world directly in the past, but it didn't work well, so they swore to keep their hands off and let mortals work out their own problems. So they would NEVER have sent the eagles to solve the world's problems. However, after Frodo and Sam had done the work of destroying the ring, the world was already saved, and the demi-gods sent the eagles because letting the hobbits die at that point would have served no purpose. The eagle rescue was sort of a reward rather than a solution to a problem. 

And okay, it's a bit of a cheat that they help Gandalf, but not entirely. Gandalf is of the same order of creatures as the demi-gods, and he is kind-of a troubleshooter sent by the big-G God who is above that group. That God is the god who brings Gandalf back to life and sends him back to finish his job after he sort-of dies in the fight with the balrog. So if He wanted the eagle to help Gandalf, He would have gotten his way even if the demi-gods try to keep out of things. 

[LN400]

One note on Sauron "dying" when others did not. As Vanamonde mentioned, there are a bunch of demi-gods and demi-demi gods behind the scene. One of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, demi-demi-gods was Sauron, being the right hand of the devil himself (source: Silmarillion). So, that old codger was far from a regular issue mad, evil villain. His "dying" was part what the 5th Horseman said, and his real godly self returning to the gods' domain for some r&r.

 

[pandaman]

On seeing the film,  I wondered why Elrond didn't just give Isildur an understanding and encouraging pat on the back - but just a bit too hard.  'Oops, you were a bit closer to the edge than I thought,  clumsy me. Oh well at least that darn ring's gone now'.

Mind you they would have struggled to stretch that out to 3 movies.  And all the hardcore fans of the books would have gone ballistic.

[LN400]

In all honesty, considering the lack of quality to the actual plan and assuming they are not plain mad, a more plausible scenario than in the books/movies would be the one in Bored Of The Rings:

"But fear not, dear boggie," continued Orlon, "you shall not go alone." 
"Good old Gimlet will go with you," said Legolam. 
"And fearless Legolam," said Gimlet. 
"And noble King Arrowroot," said Bromosel. 
"And faithful Bromosel," said Arrowroot. 
"And Moxie, Pepsi, and Spam," said Dildo. 
"And Goodgulf Grayteeth," added Orlon. 
"Indeed," said Goodgulf, glaring at Orlon, and if looks could maim, the old elf would have left in a basket.

[KSK]

Nah - I prefer a little precision marksmanship, Boromir style.  

The link isn't remotely forum friendly due to much bad language, but a search for 'boromir' and 'catapult' will do the trick if you're curious and haven't already seen it. 

[kerbiloid]

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Why did Sauron "die" when Isildur cut off his finger with the Ring?

To make them all think that a piece of gold with a pair of primitive spells means something and to have a vacation.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

why did Frodo not die when Gollum bit off his finger with the Ring?

Frodo was a smart guy and always kept his Precious in his pocket. Stupid Gollum snapped off a fake one, that's why he hadn't disappeared when falling down.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Why did Elrond allow Isildur to keep the Ring

Hmm... Of course, the arrows which farced Isildur a year later, were orcish. But who knows whose were the bows...

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

It was not Isildur's to keep.

"I'm afraid, it is not Isildur's to keep the ring", sorrowed Elrond.
"And I'm afraid, an orcish arrow could shoot him down, say, somewhere in backwaters", in accordance nodded Galadriel.
And only Gandalf was keeping silence, enigmatically smiling...

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Why didn't Gollum resume to age and likely die in those 80 years?

A fish diet, hot mineral springs in the cave, enough sleeping (he was afraid of any light), no corporative working stress... With such healthy lifestyle, why at all would he need that ring?

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Gandalf seems to have the ability to summon the giant eagles whenever he needs to, yet he's always in some hurry and has to ride the comparatively slow Shadowfax, or even worse, the ponies.

Ponies? Worse? Ponies are not worse, he likes his little ponies. Third Epoch: The Ponytime.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Why didn't he take one eagle and just airlifted Frodo to the volcano? The whole business would be over in a jiffy, countless lives would be spared.

Easy come - easy go.
Be lavish once - and then become crazy when the  hobbits and people will be nagging everytime when they need to get fast to somewhere?
Make them think a dozen times before asking about eagles.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

When Aragorn got the undead army to fight for him and after the battle for Minas Tirith, why didn't he ask them to cleanse the Mordor? Such a waste of manpower.

Probably because the undeads are creatures of Darkness and their license prohibited their activity in the owner's private property.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Why do Nazgul bother with horses when they have those awesome flying things at their disposal?

Those were undead ponies. FlatterDie and StinkyPie. When they were gone, Nazguls rented undead eagles, just to troll Gandalf.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

Elves don't really sound like a race that does a lot of coal mining

Yes. Why do you think, gnomes dwarves hate them? While the valiant elves were metalworking, beardy villains should mine coal for them.

On 09.08.2016 at 11:55 PM, Shpaget said:

yet they are the ones that make the best stuff, while dwarfs, the natural builders and a lot more aggressive race, are completely neglected in this regard.

Crafty and elegant Elves did their crafting, wearing snow white lacy wristbands and even not blackening them. And took a bath after work .
While the shaggy and untidy drunkards yelled and boosed after every axe made without beating several fingers off.
So, all are sure that elves are sissies, while dwarves are brutal megasmiths.

Of course, the hobbits from a far countryside were sure that the empty coal mines are palaces. But looks like nobody except dvarwes had ever seen that "palace" in its lordliness.

[kerbiloid]

On 10.08.2016 at 1:15 AM, razark said:

Also, remember the password to the door into Moria? 

"Friend". If they were using Durin's birthdate, hobbits would never enter Moria.

On 10.08.2016 at 2:47 PM, Just Jim said:

Frodo also tries to give the ring to Gandalf, and he refuses to even touch it, saying something along the lines of "Do not tempt me further!" 

While Tom Bombadil just put it on and took off.
This means that Tom followed True Dao.
 

[Just Jim]

9 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

While Tom Bombadil just put it on and took off.
This means that Tom followed True Dao.

I forgot about Tom, you're right!