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This is the most frustrating part of this game. It has been bar none the best money I have ever spent on a game. All these changes and you can't just build MECH JEB or something identical into the game. WHY do we need a third party outside mod to tell us what Delta V we have and thrust to weight ratio's the rocket has in different spheres of influence. I didn't buy this game to learn the math of rocket science. I doubt that 90% of the player base has that desire either. I understand that rocket science is hard and that NASA had loads of troubles figuring out how to do it, but this is a video game, and we are not playing it to do math and spend countless hours trying to get a damn rocket into space and on the proper path without burning to much delta V. I'm not saying it needs to do all the fancy auto landing and docking, because that just makes it to easy and I never use those, but the maneuver editor is the biggest part of why I use it. It is extremely aggravating that I can't play the game every couple of weeks because the developers want to change things and break the damn mods. Stop relying on people to do your job for you, and hire them, or buy their content. This issue needs to be addressed!

Edited by cipher2012
needed a change

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It's unlikely they'll ever add it, I believe they made a statement about it. It's is perfectly playable without mods, since trial and error seems to be the main style of the game.

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Yes, they have intentionally left it out. I do agree that players at the start shouldn’t have access to it, to force that trial and error and the hilarity that comes with it, but I do think it should come late in the tech tree, because it is honestly damn near impossible to actually make something like an Eve lander (that can actually get back into orbit) without it. 

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3 hours ago, cipher2012 said:

This issue needs to be addressed!

It was addressed, by a number of mods. 

The game was never intended to have autopilots, or calculators doing the readouts.  That was Harvester's idea, and it's stuck through the versions. 

I think @GoSlash27 was the one who said the game should be played as much in a spreadsheet as in the game itself. 

Is it so hard to learn to do some math?

If you don't like that style of game play, the availability of a number of mods to alter your game play experience are easily and readily available for your consumption. 

And that's what makes this game great. 

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1 hour ago, Javster said:

trial and error seems to be the main style of the game.

I don't know about you, but running out of fuel mid-mission is a colossal pain in the ass.

I like having a rough estimate of how much fuel I'll need for my missions, especially the longer and more complicated ones.

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54 minutes ago, SnailsAttack said:

I don't know about you, but running out of fuel mid-mission is a colossal pain in the ass.

I like having a rough estimate of how much fuel I'll need for my missions, especially the longer and more complicated ones.

Exactly this. I have no interest in trying to take off from Laythe and only then realising I don't have the fuel left to get home. I want to have a mission plan before I lift off, and I don't want that plan to involve paper, pencils, spreadsheets or calculators.

What use are manoeuvres in m/s if you don't know how many m/s you have? Might as well measure it in lollipops and cordwhiffles.

Tbh, I will continue to consider the game still in beta until it has a delta-v readout and a transfer window calculator. It's a multi-lingual beta, to be sure, but it's missing such a glaringly vital feature that it can't be considered complete.

(Not that I don't love KSP - I just abhor the 'design decision' that mission planning should be done outside of the game.)

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1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

I think @GoSlash27 was the one who said the game should be played as much in a spreadsheet as in the game itself. 

 Gargamel,
 Actually the quote comes from @Freshmeat , and is more meant as advice to new players who aspire to get really good at KSP.

 I do agree with your point though. Using MJ or KER as a convenience is fine, but you shouldn't need them. Learn the math and do it by hand until you're comfortable with it, then gin up a spreadsheet to do the drudge work for you.  #1 it's educational and #2 your program won't wind up grounded every time there's an update.

Best,
-Slashy

 

 

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2 hours ago, MechBFP said:

Yes, they have intentionally left it out. I do agree that players at the start shouldn’t have access to it, to force that trial and error and the hilarity that comes with it, but I do think it should come late in the tech tree, because it is honestly damn near impossible to actually make something like an Eve lander (that can actually get back into orbit) without it. 

Kerbal EDU already contains dV/TWR etc readouts too, although I believe because KerbalEDU is a separate entity they can't just grab that code slug and drop it in (although I'd hope it wouldn't be too difficult to make an agreement on that front).

Even if it was hidden by default like Advanced Tweakables, plus you could progressive gate parts of it in Career saves by tech levels of various facilities.

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3 hours ago, Javster said:

It's unlikely they'll ever add it, I believe they made a statement about it. It's is perfectly playable without mods, since trial and error seems to be the main style of the game.

Javster,

 It's perfectly playable without mods, and trial and error isn't required. The reason that info isn't provided is because they want to encourage you to learn the math and engineering principles of aerospace engineering.

 So IRT the OP, my advice is this: Stop relying on mods to do your job for you, and learn how to do it yourself. It's easy once you get the hang of it.

Best,
-Slashy

Edited by GoSlash27

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27 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

It's easy once you get the hang of it.

Yeah, it's only rocket science. :wink:

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30 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

Actually the quote comes from @Freshmeat , and is more meant as advice to new players who aspire to get really good at KSP.

 For a certain narrowly limited meaning of the words "get really good".
 

24 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

So IRT the OP, my advice is this: Stop relying on mods to do your job for you, and learn how to do it yourself. It's easy once you get the hang of it.


My advice is to ignore the people who try to tell you how to play your game.  It's your game.  If mods rock your world, feel free.  Don't let anyone else dictate your fun.

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12 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

My advice is to ignore the people who try to tell you how to play your game.  It's your game.  If mods rock your world, feel free.  Don't let anyone else dictate your fun.

Likewise, don't let anyone else impose their idea of how the game "should" be on the rest of the community. If the OP wants the info that mods provide and can't work without them, that's his affair. The problem is the game is too hard for him without mods, and he wants to make the game easier for everyone in order to remedy it. I support the alternative, which is the game should stay as difficult as it currently is, and he can either learn to do without the mods when necessary or wait until the mods catch up.
 The game is fine as- is.

Best,
-Slashy

Edited by GoSlash27

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I for one delighted in learning the math.  'Main problem is I can never remember the vis-viva equation so I'm always having to use that dang subway map.  But the rocket equation?  Used and abused.  I used to plan missions on paper or in a text editor at work, doing the math with little more than calc.exe.  Eventually that did get tedious and I switched to KER and a spreadsheet, but I still sometimes will do things like use current vessel mass to find remaining delta-v on the fly if I don't have KER up.

There's no need to do it all yourself, but it's worthwhile to gain the power to do so, in part for the utility of having the ability, and in part because it makes you more than you were before.

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I didn't buy this game to learn the math of rocket science. I doubt that 90% of the player base has that desire either.  

Actually, that's exactly why a lot of people bought KSP and continue to play it. Most of us get along fine without MechJeb. 

At any rate, this suggestion for the game's development has been moved to Development Discussions. 

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Я считаю что смысл игры в пробах и ошибках, ведь всё веселье в игре имеется благодаря им, а mechjeb читерский мод, для расчётов надо использовать KER:rolleyes:

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7 hours ago, Fox_Leo said:

Я считаю что смысл игры в пробах и ошибках, ведь всё веселье в игре имеется благодаря им, а mechjeb читерский мод, для расчётов надо использовать KER:rolleyes:

Hi, @Fox_Leo ! Welcome to the forums! Привет! :) 

Per forum guidelines, the messages on the global forum should be written in English, or include English translation (2.3). We also have Russian sub-forum, where you are always welcome too.

Furthermore, I would like to ask you to stop calling MJ "cheating", as everyone is free to mod the game the way they like it and entitled to own opinion; and previously personal opinions like this one have lead to nothing positive or constructive.
Likewise, I have never touched MJ, but I ask you to respect the choices of other players.


Enjoy your stay! :)

-- -- -- --

Translation of Fox_Leo message for other members:
"I think that trial and error is the essence of the the game, as the whole part of fun originates from that, and MJ is a cheating mod, its better to use KER".

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On 8.3.2018 at 9:04 PM, MechBFP said:

Yes, they have intentionally left it out. I do agree that players at the start shouldn’t have access to it, to force that trial and error and the hilarity that comes with it, but I do think it should come late in the tech tree, because it is honestly damn near impossible to actually make something like an Eve lander (that can actually get back into orbit) without it. 

Note that the mechjeb author agree as mechjeb functionality unlocks with new parts in carrier mode.
Yes it can do some stuff I can not, land on Tylo (with an ship who can take of again) :)
Things go way to fast for me the last seconds 

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10 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Things go way to fast for me the last seconds 

That's the real reason I use MJ.  My machine is slow enough that inputs can get compounded easily before the game reacts to them, resulting in over corrections, which spiral out of control. 

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4 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Note that the mechjeb author agree as mechjeb functionality unlocks with new parts in carrier mode.

Note that is complete and groundless assumption on your part.  And just maybe you've forgotten sandbox mode exists.

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I'd just like to point out that mods aren't "broken by updates every couple of weeks," 1.4 is the first big update in months, and @sarbian is pretty fast getting the new build out, MJ is usually one of the first mods to be updated.  Even if he hasn't updated the release build yet, there's usually a dev build up very soon after the patch.

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The best part of KSP is the Mods. Accept that. Love it. Squad has worked hard to make KSP mod friendly. Thank you Squad!

If Squad implements DV readouts or Autopilot into KSP,  it will pale in comparison to mods out there that specialize in these things.. Once a feature is stock, we are stuck with it and we will likely pay the price for it in RAM and CPU that could have been devoted to moar awesome mods!

Edited by JedTech
spelling

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Rule #1 here: never, never ever demand something of the developers on the forums. You want something, you would like to see something, you just dont demand.

The game is good now in my opinion, the mods make it even better and so does the community. You can make the game how you want it, for example, I've a very heavily modded Real Solar System/Realism Overhaul install with around the 45k of MM-patches. And another fantasybuild kerbol system install with some mods I like. 
Do I feel like I rely on somebody? Nah, I feel freedom, freedom to play the game I want, freedom to mod the game how I want.

Edited by DrLicor

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2 hours ago, JedTech said:

If Squad implements DV readouts or Autopilot into KSP,  it will pale in comparison to mods out there that specialize in these things.. Once a feature is stock, we are stuck with it and we will likely pay the price for it in RAM and CPU that could have been devoted to moar awesome mods!

This is an excellent point. MJ dv math includes some code to properly work with some mods that requires it. It is unlikely you ll get that in a stock version of MJ or KER. They can't add bits of code to adapt to every mod quirk and even if they did it would takes month, if not a year to end up in a KSP patch

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I'm gonna pull a @Brotoro and say: GIVE US HOSES!!! (Though I've long-since resigned myself to the unlikelihood of such a feature being added.)

Edited by mattssheep4

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I am glad MechJeb is a mod and not baked into the base game.

If MechJeb was baked in very few people would fly without it, you wouldn't learn the basics of space flight mechanics which is extremely rewarding once you pull off a perfect launch / orbit / rendezvous with Mun etc.

Back in the early days it was much much harder to do rendezvous than now, we didn't used to have the Maneuvers UI (which I think is ingeniously integrated in the UI), with it orbits and rendezvous etc are a piece of cake (providing you have the fuel and power etc).

Now don't get me wrong, I do use MechJeb because launching a rocket can get a bit tedious at times if you are repeating the process a lot to launch parts of a space station etc to then construct in orbit.

This is why I believe it should always remain a mod, the base game gives you everything you need to launch rockets etc, MechJeb just automates it.

Edited by sysigy

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