Mod licensing and "etiquette"

[R-T-B]

5 minutes ago, steve_v said:

You mean https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/23904? That one gets this months prize for "most ridiculous 0-day bug to get past QA".
This just confirms my long-held suspicion that Squad doesn't bother to QA the GNU/Linux builds at all.
I really can't see how anyone could do even a cursory playtest without touching the scrollwheel.

This is not unusual.

I at least test my updates in OpenGL mode as well as DirectX, lol, but I completely understand their perspective from a marketability standpoint.  Just wish they'd admit the linux build is more "best effort" than actually supported.

2 minutes ago, Galileo said:

I was talking in regards to Kopernicus

Kopernicus...  ah.  You got me there.  To be frank I tired to fix it by hand before they got to it.  And I got it to compile!  Then it ate my universe.

Too bad, because I had compiled it WITH a particle translation layer.  One I'm still working on because I think it's pretty cool!  But that's really all I understand.

Yeah, of all the ones that's probably the most likely one I'll drop.  I have no idea what 99% of that code does.  It's a massive beast.  Much respect to the coders.

Edited October 19, 2019 by R-T-B

[Lisias]

6 minutes ago, steve_v said:

You mean https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/23904? That one gets this months prize for "most ridiculous 0-day bug to get past QA".

That could be by design. MacOS uses the wheel inverted natively. If some dude choose to "fix" it, it would end inverting for everybody else that shares that code.

QA will test exactly what's specified. So from their point of view, the check list passed.

We can be looking on a UX bug, not code .

Granted, from the end user's point of view, this doesn't matters too much.

[steve_v]

1 minute ago, R-T-B said:

I completely understand their perspective from a marketability standpoint.  Just wish they'd admit the linux build is more "best effort" than actually supported.

I don't, spotting this would have taken <5 minutes. Checking the box for Linux and MacOS builds and calling it a day without a 5-minute playtest isn't "marketability", it's negligence and laziness.

Had I known that I would get "best effort" and zero QA rather than real support I wouldn't have bought the game, and I sure won't be buying another Squad product after seeing what "supported OS" means to them.

[R-T-B]

1 minute ago, steve_v said:

I don't, spotting this would have taken <5 minutes. Checking the box for Linux and MacOS builds and calling it a day without a 5-minute playtest isn't "marketability", it's negligence and laziness.

Even installing a linux build needs a testing rig.  It's just not worth it for the small marketshare, IMO.

I was a dev in the past, and I supported Linux, but only out of passion.  It never made me money.  Don't get me wrong, I want more linux products but...  money is what speaks to companies, you know?  And it just isn't there (or wasn't when I worked, maybe SteamPlay has changed the world).

1 minute ago, steve_v said:

Had I known that I would get "best effort" and zero QA rather than real support I wouldn't have bought the game

Yeah, and that is a completely valid argument.  Feel your pain man.

Edited October 19, 2019 by R-T-B

[panarchist]

35 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Not exactly!

To tell you the true, it is. What changed is that Disney didn't requested the extension, so unless something else happened, some Disney copyrights expires this year. I remember someone above talking about this, by the way. I will redact this later to credit the guy (can't really use this crappy excuse of a mobile I'm on now).

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/a-whole-years-worth-of-works-just-fell-into-the-public-domain/

 

Ok, I think we both got each other's point. :-D Definitely true. In any case, I'm glad the issue with RBT's updates resurrected *this* thread, because there isn't a consensus on these issues overall, and it needs to be surfaced from time to time. At the end of the day, we all need to get along and come to agreement on at least some of the most important points. I think all of us agree that mod makers taking their toys and going home hurts the game overall, and in many of our cases, seriously impacts our enjoyment of it.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

Don't get me wrong, I want more linux products but...  money is what speaks to companies, you know?  And it just isn't there (or wasn't when I worked, maybe SteamPlay has changed the world).

The Linux market share has grown a lot in the past few years. IIRC the last Steam hardware survey results I saw showed Linux users to make up about 25-35%.

[steve_v]

3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

That could be by design. MacOS uses the wheel inverted natively. If some dude choose to "fix" it, it would end inverting for everybody else that shares that code.

Then that dude needs a couple of lashes with the cat for not testing his commits properly and borking things for other people.
Bugs happen, and that's fine. It's not picking up something so obvious before release that grinds my gears.
 

15 minutes ago, Lisias said:

We can be looking on a UX bug, not code .

Granted, from the end user's point of view, this doesn't matters too much.

From the end-users point of view, Squad released another untested build, nothing more or less.
 

3 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

Even installing a linux build needs a testing rig. 

Catching something like this needs nothing more than dual-boot and a smoke. If Squad can't afford to dedicate 20GB of disk space on one of their boxes to actually booting up the Linux build, they have no business selling it in the first place.

 

4 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

It's just not worth it for the small marketshare, IMO.

Market share can't increase unless there are quality games and quality support on the market.
Dumping untested crap on GNU/Linux users simply perpetuates the cycle.
 

Anyhoo, we're derailing this thread again...

[R-T-B]

Just now, steve_v said:

Anyhoo, we're derailing this thread again...

Agreed.  My point was only that I understand the economics of it, not that it is right.  Know that.

[panarchist]

30 minutes ago, steve_v said:

You mean https://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/23904? That one gets this months prize for "most ridiculous 0-day bug to get past QA".
This just confirms my long-held suspicion that Squad doesn't bother to QA the GNU/Linux builds at all.
I really can't see how anyone could do even a cursory playtest without touching the scrollwheel.

I agree they should have someone testing this on the Linux end, and I expect they don't have a lot of Linux users on the QA team. Back when it was all volunteer, there was either 1 or 2 Linux testers doing QA - that's it. (I was on the team from 0.24 - 1.05) And not all Linux users use a scroll-wheel mouse (ditto for Mac users), so that could also be a factor. Anyway, this isn't the QA thread, and I agree that they SHOULD have someone covering those use cases, and I suspect you're right that they are not doing so currently.

[Lisias]

2 minutes ago, panarchist said:

 I think all of us agree that mod makers taking their toys and going home hurts the game overall, and in many of our cases, seriously impacts our enjoyment of it.

It may be true, but users going away preferring to use pirated copies of the addons on some other site also hurts. Perhaps more.

And make no mistake - it's precisally what happens. Not to mention, happening.

The users are the central reason of everything here. We do what's better for them, or they will find someone else that does it 

[Gargamel]

4 minutes ago, panarchist said:

Anyway, this isn't the QA thread,

Right.   Let's not derail the conversation at hand, which seems to be of some importance at the moment, with talk of what Squad should be doing with their QA process.   We already have a number of threads for this....

[Galileo]

7 minutes ago, Lisias said:

The users are the central reason of everything here. We do what's better for them, or they will find someone else that does it 

What it sounds like you are suggesting is that users are entitled to immediate updates to mods that are given for free by people that do this in their free time. And if they take longer than a few days to update, someone should pick it up and run with it? Is that right? 

I agree, abandoned mods should be continued and thank goodness for @linuxgurugamer for not allowing that to happen, but if what I assume you are suggesting is correct, that's a bit ridiculous.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Galileo

[panarchist]

3 hours ago, Lisias said:

It may be true, but users going away preferring to use pirated copies of the addons on some other site also hurts. Perhaps more.

And make no mistake - it's precisally what happens. Not to mention, happening.

The users are the central reason of everything here. We do what's better for them, or they will find someone else that does it 

Sure, but it only happens when the license is restrictive, and that was one of my points - one of the ways a mod maker takes back their toys and goes home is by clamping down with ARR on everything - which is totally their right. None of us can make a mod maker use a permissive license. In my case, the couple mods I've released are almost entirely someone else's work released under CC (but not CC ND) where the mod maker either gave permission, hasn't responded to multiple contact attempts, or said outright in thread that they were abandoning the mod. I'm mostly a MM patch guy, and the KSP equivalents of scripting, not a dll coder. (although I'm starting to dabble in that) The community has benefitted through permissive licenses, but mod authors are going to stop using them if others merely adhere the the legalities of the license rather than also being decent to each other and adhering to at least some forms of politeness and etiquette.

[snip]

Edited October 19, 2019 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Galileo]

8 minutes ago, panarchist said:

The community has benefitted through permissive licenses, but mod authors are going to stop using them if others merely adhere the the legalities of the license rather than also being decent to each other and adhering to at least some forms of politeness and etiquette.

Some people just want to feel like an important figure in the community and will just look at what they technically can and can't do, decency be damned. Opportunists, at least until it becomes overwhelming with bug reports and issues, then they disappear. At least, that's what I've seen over the years. 

And I'm not saying they aren't always with ill intent. Most really do want to help and that's respectable.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Galileo

[panarchist]

1 minute ago, Galileo said:

Some people just want to feel like an important figure in the community and will just look at what they technically can and can't do, decency be damned. 

Yeah, and that right there is going to kill the modding community with this game. No one is going to release under CC if they spend thousands of hours creating something worthwhile and having it grabbed and re-released by someone else filing off the serial numbers, so to say. I seem to recall an incident a couple years ago with someone using your textures for a visual pack in violation of license. That wasn't cool. If you take your things and go home, I have a much poorer KSP experience.

[Lisias]

24 minutes ago, Galileo said:

What it sounds like you are suggesting is that users are entitled to immediate updates to mods that are given for free by people that do this in their free time. And if they take longer than a few days to update, someone should pick it up and run with it? Is that right? 

No. I'm suggesting we should not push them away by trying to controlling them with copyright trolling.

This is voluntary work, there's a very defined line about what an Author can be demanded.

But the other way is also valid - there's a very defined line about what you can impose to the users, before they give us the finger and leave - pirating your work on the way out.

(hiding the offtopic under the carpet)

Spoiler

14 minutes ago, steve_v said:

*shudder* That must have been painful.
I've had a scrollwheel since 1998, and I wasn't even an early adopter.

Try to live with a *ONE* button mouse!

Spoiler

(and yeah - I had used every single one of the, - still have most of them. too, on my collection)

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Lisias
Hit "save" too soon.

[severedsolo]

44 minutes ago, Lisias said:

This is voluntary work, there's a very defined line about what an Author can be demanded.

But the other way is also valid - there's a very defined line about what you can impose to the users, before they give us the finger and leave - pirating your work on the way out.

I find this interesting. It seems that you view modding as you providing a service, and being obligated to your users.

Me, I view it as "I'm a player, I made this thing because I wanted this thing, maybe you'll like it to". What my users want barely comes into it.

Don't get me wrong, if someone comes along with a feature request, and it's easy to implement, or I want it myself, or even "oh that sounds like an interesting coding challenge" - I'll do it, but it's always about me.

I don't think either viewpoint is wrong, I just find the contrast interesting.

[Stone Blue]

18 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

I find this interesting. It seems that you view modding as you providing a service, and being obligated to your users.

Me, I view it as "I'm a player, I made this thing because I wanted this thing, maybe you'll like it to". What my users want barely comes into it

Exactly... and I think this is the biggest point most users just dont get...
Most devs create content they themselves have an interest in having in-game, *first and foremost* ... providing it to the public is *secondary* and *gracious*... and as I said, *costs* the dev a lot of extra time and effort, really unnecessary for *them* to enjoy what they've created...
Not appreciating that extra time/effort, and ticking them off, helps no one... *even if you CAN do it legally..*

Why would someone want to make a complicated mod, spending sooo much time and effort, if they were solely wanting to provide it to a majority of users who may only complain and demand, if it wasnt first and foremost something they had passion for, for their own use first?

If that *were* the case, then they are seemingly just doing it for the sake of their ego... Which, IMHO, is where a lot of "continuations" and takeovers come from.. the hard work has already been done by someone else... Many people feel they can just add a tweak or two, a little polish, a simple recompile, and get a bunch of glory from the community... vOv

But I digress from topic...

Edited October 19, 2019 by Stone Blue

[R-T-B]

5 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Exactly... and I think this is the biggest point most users just dont get...
Most devs create content they themselves have an interest in having in-game, *first and foremost* ... providing it to the public is *secondary* ... and as I said, *costs* the dev time and effort...
Not appreciating that extra time/effort, and ticking them off, helps no one... *even if you CAN do it legally..*

Why would someone want to make a complicated mod, spending sooo much time and effort, if they were solely wanting to provide it to a majority of users who may only complain and demand, if it wasnt first and foremost something they had passion for, for their own use first?

If that *were* the case, then they are seemingly just doing it for the sake of their ego... Which, IMHO, is where a lot of "continuations" and takeovers come from.. the hard work has already been done by someone else... Many people feel they can just add a tweak or two, a little polish, a simple recompile, and get a bunch of glory from the community... vOv

But I digress from topic...

In my case I did all these ports before I even shared them.  The github commits were all one super-commit if you don't believe me, check them.

It wasn't about the fame, it was about exactly what you say:  I thought, why not share?  It works for me, maybe you'll find it useful.  I could've been playing KSP the whole time I was updated licenses and getting sources posted, etc...  instead here I am.

If it was all about ego, I wouldn't have posted the releases with warnings telling you how bad they probably were.

I also wouldn't be retemplating all the mods so they give credit to the author, the original author, and direct support to me.  And renaming every reference in the source to further avoid confusion.

 

See if you can guess what this is:

https://github.com/R-T-B/MyPlanetIsShiny

Edited October 19, 2019 by R-T-B

[Stone Blue]

15 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

It wasn't about the fame, it was about exactly what you say:  I thought, why not share?  It works for me, maybe you'll find it useful.  I could've been playing KSP the whole time I was updated licenses and getting sources posted, etc...  instead here I am.

If it was all about ego, I wouldn't have posted the releases with warnings telling you how bad they probably were.

I also wouldn't be retemplating all the mods so they give credit to the author, the original author, and direct support to me.  And renaming every reference in the source to further avoid confusion.

Dont get me wrong, I wasnt targeting you, or questioning your motives about ego being primary motivation for doing what youre doing, or any one else continuing/taking over mods... I just saying it *could* be the case by some people... and yes, I' have seen it done before...

I think the whole discussion in this thread, has not necessarily that youve done a wrong or bad thing... its just moar aboot the *way* you did it that has raised hackles...
And IMHO, no need for you to further defend or explain yourself... I think that has all been discussed and cleared up, and youve even said you've acknowledged and made changes to those concerns and methods

[zer0Kerbal]

55 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

Me, I view it as "I'm a player, I made this thing because I wanted this thing, maybe you'll like it to". What my users want barely comes into it.

Don't get me wrong, if someone comes along with a feature request, and it's easy to implement, or I want it myself, or even "oh that sounds like an interesting coding challenge" - I'll do it, but it's always about me.

I don't think either viewpoint is wrong, I just find the contrast interesting.

agree.

36 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Most devs create content they themselves have an interest in having in-game, *first and foremost* ... providing it to the public is *secondary* and *gracious*... and as I said, *costs* the dev a lot of extra time and effort, really unnecessary for *them* to enjoy what they've created...
Not appreciating that extra time/effort, and ticking them off, helps no one... *even if you CAN do it legally..*

is so why I do it.

Love the game, love the mods, because I want to use them first and foremost. Take Docking Port Descriptions (ok not really a true mod ) is something I created because I wanted it in-game. Things like ODFC/SimpleLogistics/Field Training ... are things I use in game.

bringing back the dead is also quite challenging and rewarding. and I do so enjoy learning from the experience.

Anything else is secondary, albeit I do try to listen and seek ideas. It is a cooperative community after all.

Just licenses are a PITA - hence why I put the license everywhere, including underneath the seat and lid of the toilet in the IVA's  .... :p

 even if the license is like TweakScale's.

Edited October 19, 2019 by zer0Kerbal

[Lisias]

Software is a service. You can provide it for free, or you can provide it for a fee. It's your choice.

What people don't get is that Users are not abstract entities, they are people like you and me. And their time are as valuable as yours, and once they commit their time on helping you on your service, they have exactly the same feelings about the work as you. Of course some of them are not exactly the best persons of the World, but life is what life is - we cope with it.

And if you use your service, being that for a fee or for free, to force them to do what they don't want, they will resist the way they can - and they outnumber us. We are shielded inside this Forum, we have the Moderators that are helping us to cope with some of the nastiness of an angry user, but this is not how things work "out there". Outside this Forum, users do what users do. The whole Free Software movement started thanks (or, perhaps, besides) one pretty "liquided" user that got angry due a Printer Driver the printer manufacturer choose to deny him for… reasons.

Your personal opinion about this are exactly that: personal opinions. Forum Moderators can protected us from the consequences of that opinions here, but not out there, on the Wild Wide World. There, we have the rule of the Law - and it's wise to cope with it.

Ethics on Software is a class on the Universities around here. It's not the same class where they teach us about Laws on Software. Interesting, don't you think?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Lisias
(sigh). MOAR tyops.

[Snark]

Some off-topic content has been removed.  Please try to stay on topic, folks.  Thanks.

[viperwolf]

On 10/19/2019 at 4:19 AM, Lisias said:

I choose to move the convesation from the TweakScale to avoid derailing it with not exactly unrelated , but with huge potential to trigger a off-topic fest.

From this post from TweakScale's Thread:

 

Welcome. And thanks, dude.

However, I still have some Legal Mambo Jambo work to do. Copyright laws here are somewhat different from USA's - and things can go down through the tubes pretty fast when money is involved. Our laws here have some resemblance with UK's on some aspects, i.e., the claimer can use the State to file a criminal complain on some situations and this makes things hairy for me.

I don't want to scare anyone, besides ending up doing that - but I need to secure things to avoid risking what happened to "Octav1us Kitten" on YouTube. Accepting money for this can open this door around here - but granted, I don't know the legislation enough to be absolutely sure. Loopholes does exist. But yet, I choose to play safe on this.

Again, thanks, dude. You are appreciated.

Dang man, that is pretty hardcore when you cannot accept a donation.  I donate (or have) to every modder that I use consistently. You guys (all modders) deserve something for all your work and patience with people who think they have a right to mouth off about things.  <----------------just typing that irritates me about people like that. Anyway, if you find a way to accept a donation PM me and Ill be the first to send it.

 Huge thanks to all the modders here, you have made KSP what it is today. 

[R-T-B]

For what little my experience as a coder is worth:

This is the only game I have ever modded for, or code project I have ever forked that has been met with so much hostility.

Aparently, your licenses have diverged from your authors actual wishes for the code.  This is an issue, and it is unique to the environment here from what I can tell.  I suggest and submit, humbly, that you simply pick a license in line with your actual wishes/intent and quit wondering why people end up confused and disenchanted like me.

I'm only bothering to write this because I still care about this game and I do not believe what you have going here will encourage development as "fresh ideas" dry up.  This will become more of an issue, not less, if you don't think about this soon, and hard.

Peace.

Edited October 20, 2019 by R-T-B