[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.14.0 "металл" 30/Sep/2024)

[Abrecan]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:20 AM, Deltac said:

Well step one would be building the actual Gemini service module   There's the orbital part which has oxygen and what not as well as the 2 big thrusters for maneuvering, and then that comes off to reveal 4 rocket motors that de-orbit the whole ship.

my thoughts exactly here: deorbit stage should be included

 

Would the H1's be a candidate for an upgrade like the J-2's? Would be useful for the Saturn IB variants... especially the H1-C's

Edited April 1, 2018 by Abrecan

[Saltshaker]

woot, 420th page

[demibear]

13 hours ago, Jso said:

Try removing ModularFlightIntegrator and reinstalling it with the one that comes with Kopernicus. Failing that, try with no other mods but BDB and Kopernicus and their dependencies.

Bugger, I am going to need to smoke a blunt to figure this out. Haha

Done the obvious and they worked just fine. Has to be something that deals with physics.

Edited April 2, 2018 by demibear

[demibear]

Actually, it seemed to be caused by the antenna on the probe breaking in the atmosphere at launch. Interesting.

[Pappystein]

On 4/1/2018 at 2:40 PM, Abrecan said:

my thoughts exactly here: deorbit stage should be included

 

Would the H1's be a candidate for an upgrade like the J-2's? Would be useful for the Saturn IB variants... especially the H1-C's

Or just use 4x of the new E-1s instead of the 8x H-1s????  After all there IS more DeltaV by doing so (as there should be.)  JSO and Cobaltwolf would be the final people to determine if an upgrade should be applied but IIRC even the RS-27 (which is just an H-1 engine with a fancy new bell extension) isn't much more powerful in thrust than the initial production H-1 engines.   

 

Besides, most of the "improvements" in the S-IB were in weight reduction, not thrust of engines.

 

[MeekCJ]

@CobaltWolf the more I think about it a half-size Botticelli Crew Module (with 2 Kerbal capacity) and accompanying heat shield, to convert the Leo to 1.875m, would then allow existing parts to recreate the Rescue Gemini variant. Perfect for completing Kerbal rescue contracts or retrieving that Leo Minmus Flyby crew that couldn't quite make it back to Kerbin!

 

[DracoSilverpath]

19 hours ago, demibear said:

Actually, it seemed to be caused by the antenna on the probe breaking in the atmosphere at launch. Interesting.

Can confirm this sadly, and it seems to be on the vast majorty of the small probes Is making them almost entirely unusable.

[Abrecan]

4 hours ago, Pappystein said:

IIRC even the RS-27 (which is just an H-1 engine with a fancy new bell extension) isn't much more powerful in thrust than the initial production H-1 engines.   

 

Besides, most of the "improvements" in the S-IB were in weight reduction, not thrust of engines.

The H-1C's were high performance engines that added close to one million kN more thrust overall and better ISP (296 vs 262). As to the weight reductions, most S-IB variants used standard Saturn IB's... some S-IVB stages even stretched the tankage... but the reductions came from using the standard S-IVB (S-IB) which already had reductions due to no restart requirements, etc.

If I wanted to use the E-1's I'd build a Super-Jupiter / Juno Variant.... but I'm not.

[CobaltWolf]

On 3/29/2018 at 9:17 AM, demibear said:

I must say, the EP-25 works well for the Daleth 3 for a shroud. Naturally, it is overpowered for stock. haha

EP-25? Is that one of the new stock parts? In any case, I am glad someone noticed I added that part! I definitely want to try and finish the Delta part revamp before the next update releases. It's really just the first stage and SRBs left; maybe some touchups on the adapter.

I know some people are probably upset that I currently have no plans to implement the upper stage, but I always thought that the Centaur G' or G'' (pictured below) make great substitutes.

 

On 3/28/2018 at 7:21 PM, Dutchbook said:

Here is the file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihasb5p3k1rt2gw/ScienceDefs.cfg?dl=0

I've fleshed out the Orbital Sun Observations and filled the gaps in the Photographic Image Data. There should be no further holes left

About Big G: Your Saturn I has a diameter of 5.625m, right? I just did some 20% cutting (260 inch/660cm to 208 inch/528cm) of a drawing:
https://imgur.com/a/KHeNk

If you keep the radial the same, you should be able to implement the known Big G mock-up just fine, but have to remove the cargo bay and shorten the RCS ring. But that will also allow you to add mass to the RCS ring so the CoM for the entire BiG G moves backwards, towards the RCS thrusters.

On 3/29/2018 at 11:08 AM, Pappystein said:

Ok   So I have said most of what I want to say on BigG off forum but to answer a question Cobalt asked.   Make the Docking port mount at the rear fixed,   With a 2x engine mount to either side (splayed out 10 degrees please... no need to melt the docking port.)  Set a shroud around the whole assembly with a node floating below where the actual docking port would attach.   Depending on your final choice of SM(s) you may need to use B9 to switch between auto-shroud diameters (2.5-3.125-3.75m)

For those not in the know... there were AT-LEAST 4 different SMs proposed for BigG.  Including the Apollo Blk2 SM (the one that flew to the Mun)  Cobalt has highlighted the 2.5m with a 1.857m (BDB scale) SM and the 3.75m conic (again BDB scale.)   Personally I am a fan of the Conic to Cylinder @ 3.125m because should Cobalt or someone else later desire to make the 3.75m conic later many parts can be reused.

An Apollo SM on Big-G needs an adapter tank between the SM and the BigG-SM decoupler.   This is because the RCS in the nose of the capsule is for re-entry only.   So translation needs to be handled behind the CM.  And yes that means the quad R4D thrusters currently on the Apollo SM would need to be closer to the engine bell.

Oops forgot to mention The engines nodes should be capable of first Generation AJ-10 Able style motors.  Nothing bigger.  It is likely that the AJ-10-118F would have been tapped for this roll.

On 3/29/2018 at 12:03 PM, MeekCJ said:

Hi @CobaltWolf,

I have a suggestion for 3-4x additional parts which would I think would allow both the Big-G variants above to be recreated in KSP to a pretty good approximation.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E5m6fRmHbDXWWLTO1_0whF7HUCioLVLP

The top variant of Big-G (to fit onto an SIVB upper stage) can be easily created I think with 1 extra part. Something like a Medici Service Module, with the profile of the SIVB interstage scaled down to a 3.75m opening diameter.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DSsZWtD6on--PfDrNzaP631VaWHbDi9l

The lower / Space Taxi variant - I think my model is slightly too long but I would suggest a service module, similar to the Kane CSM, with a 2 kerbal crew capacity module in the rear for realistic docking operations. This could be a single part, or two parts for the Service Module and Crew Module elements respectively - for maximum reuse potential.

I don't know why but I've always thought the MOL docking ring most appropriate for the Space Taxi, although I don't have any evidence to support this.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LwmxxIX9RoLcXEa_aaCyOsDzqcHOXscq

The final module I think could then be something similar to this Orbital Manoeuvring system (sorry I can't remember where its from - might be stock?), but scaled to the profile of the Inon adapter tank in the previous model. A monoprop engine cluster with monoprop CSM and docking module would then make a pretty good looking space taxi! :-)

Edit - I think there's enough variety in the Kane CSM module variants that you could get away with adding just a half-width orbital module without the tapered faces as a "CSM Crew Compartment Module" or something like that.

Thanks everyone! I might mock up some options for this sooner rather than later. If people still wish to continue the discussion I am interested in it.

Doing the 'barrel shaped' Big-G is actually pretty easy - it's basically just a 3.125m cylinder with 2.5m adapters on each end and Apollo RCS. It's the conical one that is the issue, and I am not looking for a crazy solution to it. @MeekCJ's first google drive screenshot makes me think that just doing the conical the obvious way might work.

@Dutchbook if you didn't see, the sciencedefs are uploaded to the Github. Thank you!

To explain things a bit more for people that may not know, part of the proposal involved making this system somewhat modular. Theoretically, it should be possible to attach the Apollo CM to any of these with minimal work, or to put the Apollo SM on the Big G (obviously that eliminates the rear docking capabilities).

Here's a 'Big Apollo' which i won't do, but gives you an idea of what an Apollo with the Big G conical SM would look like.

Of course, some drawings DO show a change in wall angle for the conical SM...

And of course, there's a number of configurations of the original Gemini spacecraft that would be nice to have, like this one and the others present in the document linked by @Abrecan the other week.

On 3/29/2018 at 12:20 PM, Deltac said:

Well step one would be building the actual Gemini service module   There's the orbital part which has oxygen and what not as well as the 2 big thrusters for maneuvering, and then that comes off to reveal 4 rocket motors that de-orbit the whole ship.

On 4/1/2018 at 2:40 PM, Abrecan said:

my thoughts exactly here: deorbit stage should be included

I would love if our Gemini was made like that, unfortunately when we created it the idea of keeping it easy to use was really attractive. Right now I don't feel it's a good use of my time to rebuild it. Would take a lot of new modeling and texturing.

 

On 3/30/2018 at 9:01 AM, Barzon Kerman said:

Can this be made compatible with RealChute?

I asked @Jso and he said we previously tried RealChute for the Apollo chutes, but it made them clip together above the pod rather than spreading out correctly.

 

On 4/1/2018 at 2:40 PM, Abrecan said:

Would the H1's be a candidate for an upgrade like the J-2's? Would be useful for the Saturn IB variants... especially the H1-C's

14 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Or just use 4x of the new E-1s instead of the 8x H-1s????  After all there IS more DeltaV by doing so (as there should be.)  JSO and Cobaltwolf would be the final people to determine if an upgrade should be applied but IIRC even the RS-27 (which is just an H-1 engine with a fancy new bell extension) isn't much more powerful in thrust than the initial production H-1 engines.  

Besides, most of the "improvements" in the S-IB were in weight reduction, not thrust of engines.

9 hours ago, Abrecan said:

The H-1C's were high performance engines that added close to one million kN more thrust overall and better ISP (296 vs 262). As to the weight reductions, most S-IB variants used standard Saturn IB's... some S-IVB stages even stretched the tankage... but the reductions came from using the standard S-IVB (S-IB) which already had reductions due to no restart requirements, etc.

If I wanted to use the E-1's I'd build a Super-Jupiter / Juno Variant.... but I'm not.

If I remember the H-1s already are operating at their max capabilities (for reference, BDB uses 25% of IRL thrust and real ISP)... if they are not perhaps someone could make a pull request? I imagine there's other parts that could do with the upgrade modules. Some speculative ones for things like the Apollo service engines also would not go amiss.

I don't believe I've talked about it on the forum, but this is something I've been planning as a 'eventual' thing once I finally want to get the 4x engine mount for the Saturn 1 with E-1 engines. I'd like to redo the bottom of the existing mount to take 4 E-1s, and create and entirely new model for the Saturn 1B's 8 H-1 mount, that is closer to the cylindrical one that flew IRL on the later S-I stages. For some background, remember I made the Saturn 1 first, and thus the stage was meant to represent that configuration originally. I wasn't really thinking to the future too much at that point.

Saturn 1 Block 1 S-I stage:

Saturn 1B S-I stage:

 

On 4/1/2018 at 4:47 PM, Saltshaker said:

woot, 420th page

And what a date for it too

 

On 4/1/2018 at 9:47 AM, demibear said:

I am having a strange bug/error when using the explorer probe and the small srbs by themselves on the launchpad. All is well for a few seconds before the staging and control disappears from the screen and the craft just endlessly drifts upwards, taken by aliens. 

The log just shows a constant spamming of something. There is a mention of modular flight integrator in it. I tried upgrading it to the latest dev build, but that seemed to do nothing. I am attaching the log file. I inserted alien to just before it started to make it easier to find.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zk_AgjelWL3VTODT1NEWmM8XYqs4RdBZ

On 4/1/2018 at 11:50 AM, Jso said:

Try removing ModularFlightIntegrator and reinstalling it with the one that comes with Kopernicus. Failing that, try with no other mods but BDB and Kopernicus and their dependencies.

On 4/2/2018 at 1:37 AM, demibear said:

Done the obvious and they worked just fine. Has to be something that deals with physics.

On 4/2/2018 at 2:10 AM, demibear said:

Actually, it seemed to be caused by the antenna on the probe breaking in the atmosphere at launch. Interesting.

13 hours ago, DracoSilverpath said:

Can confirm this sadly, and it seems to be on the vast majorty of the small probes Is making them almost entirely unusable.

What do you mean they're breaking in the atmosphere? Can anyone give more information, or better yet experiment and find a solution?

 

14 hours ago, MeekCJ said:

@CobaltWolf the more I think about it a half-size Botticelli Crew Module (with 2 Kerbal capacity) and accompanying heat shield, to convert the Leo to 1.875m, would then allow existing parts to recreate the Rescue Gemini variant. Perfect for completing Kerbal rescue contracts or retrieving that Leo Minmus Flyby crew that couldn't quite make it back to Kerbin!

 

Not a bad idea, and I could probably make it with existing textures fairly easily!

 

 

[demibear]

Yep, the EP-25 engine plate.

[Kablob]

2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Not a bad idea, and I could probably make it with existing textures fairly easily!

 

 

 

If you're interested, another fun idea for alternate Geminis could be the Agena-based service module for Lunar flyby:

aka "someone crashed an Agena into the back of a Gemini service module"

[CobaltWolf]

8 minutes ago, Kablob said:

If you're interested, another fun idea for alternate Geminis could be the Agena-based service module for Lunar flyby:

aka "someone crashed an Agena into the back of a Gemini service module"

Yeah I never understood that one... what's with the shroud  around the Agena tanks? It doesn't seem to do anything.

[Pappystein]

5 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Yeah I never understood that one... what's with the shroud  around the Agena tanks? It doesn't seem to do anything.

IIRC that shroud is actually because the mounting was up high on the Agena tankage (notice the step between the standard Gemini service module and the Agena tankage.)   The shroud served as an armor plate for the tanks so they wouldn't get diced by the explosive bolts at separation or wouldn't get hit by the inter-stage if the capsule suffered a pitch or yaw movement at separation.   A cool thing that could be done with it if you want to tackle that and get Grebel happy on a hypothetical part...  Have the shroud decouple after separation..  exposing two big and either 4-6 or 8 RCS tanks inbetween the two big cylindrical tanks.)

It looks like those tanks would end up being a 1.25m stack after the shrouds are separated (assuming Agena at 0.9375m and Titan at 1.875m)

 

Please note that there is a Rocket assisted Escape for early abort modes as well    Same part would be needed for a "complete"  BigG.   If you want to do that dirty... Just cut the Apollo capsule shroud off the Apollo LES and add new girders that reach to 4 points around the windows on the standard Gemini capsule.  White LES vs Red LES I could care LES personally..... (Sorry for the pun)

Edited April 3, 2018 by Pappystein
added bad pun and comments about LES systems for Gemini

[Modding Maniac]

this work for 1.4.2?

[Saltshaker]

12 minutes ago, Modding Maniac said:

this work for 1.4.2?

Yes, but at your own risk (hence the Mostly functional). If going from a 1.3.1 save to 1.4.2, make a backup.

[Jay The Amazing Toaster]

Lol page 420, nice!

Anyway screenie tax:

Edited April 4, 2018 by Jay The Amazing Toaster

[debaker02]

Fyi: tested the mod on 142, it seems to work there also.

[CobaltWolf]

[komodo]

Well that's shiny.

I saw up the thread mention of it, but i've always scratched my head at what they used for OMS on this concept. I know the OMS as is on the 'regular' SM has a lot of liberties made for gameplay, so I guess it doesn't really matter what the original vision was in that context!

A question or two though: There currently exist two 'typical' Gemini service modules, the so called 'normal' one, and one that is about half length. I've never understood how the smaller one came to be. It isn't that I have no use for it, I just don't have a use *yet.*

The other is on the 1.5 m service module: I would *like* to use it, but I have never found an engine that seems to go with it, power and/or shroud wise. (Or what booster to stick it atop of, for that matter.)

I stuck the Titan 1 upper stage on it once; The crew and the backs of their seats became exceedingly good friends.

[Kablob]

2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

 

E m b i g g e n

[CobaltWolf]

9 hours ago, komodo said:

Well that's shiny.

I saw up the thread mention of it, but i've always scratched my head at what they used for OMS on this concept. I know the OMS as is on the 'regular' SM has a lot of liberties made for gameplay, so I guess it doesn't really matter what the original vision was in that context!

A question or two though: There currently exist two 'typical' Gemini service modules, the so called 'normal' one, and one that is about half length. I've never understood how the smaller one came to be. It isn't that I have no use for it, I just don't have a use *yet.*

The other is on the 1.5 m service module: I would *like* to use it, but I have never found an engine that seems to go with it, power and/or shroud wise. (Or what booster to stick it atop of, for that matter.)

I stuck the Titan 1 upper stage on it once; The crew and the backs of their seats became exceedingly good friends.

OMS for the conical Big G would have been uprated Apollo RCS quads - remember they tried to bill it as 'off the shelf'.

The half length one is for MOL / Blue Gemini. IRL it would have lacked the OAMS system.

Yeah I don't know why anyone puts the Titan 1 engine on the 1.5m SM (the red headed step child of the Gemini parts...) when it produces way too much thrust. I kinda always just pictured it as an AJ-10.

Anyways, I'm planning on trying to stream a bit tonight once I get home, starting sometime between 6 and 7 eastern. Probably going to be working on Big G (not going to push to finish it tonight, mind you), and later I'll try and work on another little surprise.

[Daishi]

46 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

 

Anyways, I'm planning on trying to stream a bit tonight once I get home, starting sometime between 6 and 7 eastern. Probably going to be working on Big G (not going to push to finish it tonight, mind you), and later I'll try and work on another little surprise.

hype 

[Kablob]

For the Blue Gemini service module, I use a Delta-K engine tweakscaled so the shroud will line up.

[Kerbal01]

I like the expansion of the atlas I and II engines, and all the versions of the RL-10 so I can make all the atlas centaur!

[komodo]

3 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Yeah I don't know why anyone puts the Titan 1 engine on the 1.5m SM (the red headed step child of the Gemini parts...) when it produces way too much thrust. I kinda always just pictured it as an AJ-10

Well, who can say no to +8twr? AJ 10 would be something like the alphastar or delta upper stage? I'll tell you why for me at least: Shrouds. It's a vanilla failing that you only get one size barring part wizardry. I don't know how bad that wizardry comes out on your end. If either of those parts could do a 1.5 m shroud, I'd use that thing all the time. I could demand "FIX NAOW!", but I'm way too nice  

The MOL version, got it. If it were actually blue in game (watch it be blue and I just don't remember) I think my brain might have clicked in. Thanks much!