Our thoughts on KerbalStuff's closure

[Nothalogh]

42 minutes ago, mcirish3 said:

Wait what? Are you saying wait for a piece of software, that you don't know what it does?  Isn't Squad the customer? Why would you want client software if you don't know if it will meet your user's needs?  If squad is paying for software that Curse is making for them why would you want it if you Curse hasn't told you how it will work?

You have to pass the law to read what's in it

[mcirish3]

22 minutes ago, Nothalogh said:

You have to pass the law to read what's in it

As you wish Nancy.

[Vanamonde]

Several of you have argued that Squad should support the mod repository the community likes. Suppose they do, and then the community changes its mind and starts preferring something else? Should Squad break its contracts and run off to the new partner? What if that new partner is one person who suddenly drops the service without notice? That has been known to happen. 

Or, Squad could designate one company which they know is going to honor its commitments and be around for a while, to be sure there *is* a mod repository? Which is what they did. Suppose you don't like that mod repository? Don't use it. There are alternatives. 

Several of you have insisted that Squad should call attention to those alternatives. Do you really want Squad personnel taking the time to constantly maintain a list of ALL the random people who are or are not currently offering mod hosting, checking to see which ones have newly appeared, and which ones have suddenly been cancelled? Which ones work and which ones don't? Or would you rather they simply concentrated on making the game the mods require in order to be of any use at all? 

[Hotaru]

49 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Several of you have argued that Squad should support the mod repository the community likes. Suppose they do, and then the community changes its mind and starts preferring something else? Should Squad break its contracts and run off to the new partner? What if that new partner is one person who suddenly drops the service without notice? That has been known to happen. 

If Squad actively supported an official mod repository like SpaceDock, it could conceivably be made much less likely to fail. Replacements could be found more easily for people who leave the team. Reliance on individual users who might get burned out could be avoided. Improvements could be made based on community feedback. It would definitely be trickier to manage than the Curse partnership, but possibly worth it if handled well. Or it could be a fiasco like the original Space Port. It all depends. Either way, it's not a completely ridiculous suggestion. 

 

52 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Or, Squad could designate one company which they know is going to honor its commitments and be around for a while, to be sure there *is* a mod repository? Which is what they did. Suppose you don't like that mod repository? Don't use it. There are alternatives. 

I agree there's a good argument to be made in favor of the outsourcing option, although I still don't understand why Squad picked such an unpleasant partner as Curse. 

 

53 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Several of you have insisted that Squad should call attention to those alternatives. Do you really want Squad personnel taking the time to constantly maintain a list of ALL the random people who are or are not currently offering mod hosting, checking to see which ones have newly appeared, and which ones have suddenly been cancelled? Which ones work and which ones don't? 

No. In fact I suspect such a list, updated irregularly and frequently left out-of-date, would do more harm than good by directing people to old, defunct sites and away from new, active ones. What I would like is for Squad to call attention to the main community repository, especially if it's so successful it actually hosts more mods than their own official partner.

For instance: suppose when you click "Get Mods!" in the KSP menu or on the forum header, instead of taking you straight to Curse, you get a dialogue with two options: Official Site (takes you to Curse) and Community Site (takes you to SpaceDock). Yes, someone would have to keep track of what the most popular community repository actually is, but based on the history of KSP mod repositories so far, that wouldn't be too hard. (It could get awkward if there were two community-run competitors of roughly equal popularity, but that seems unlikely at the moment.) And if there simply stopped being a popular community option, that button could just go back to sending people straight to Curse like it's always done. 

[Virtualgenius]

@KasperVld Thank you for you response however there is some animosity by the community on the way that the Curse deal came about. The community was promised Spaceport2 and it was hinted at on a few occasions by Harvester and a site had been built to replace spaceport, next thing a few modders found out in IRC Curse was a done deal no community involvement, not a hint at even asking what we would like to use, considering the mods are created by users surely some consultation should have prevailed. KS was born out of that lack of communication its water under the bridge now but KS was far more popular than Curse and Spacedock will be as well, why not acknowledge the fact that curse was error and support the local KSP community not some commercial entity thats only interested in making money of other people hard work.

[Vanamonde]

Quote

If Squad actively supported an official mod repository like SpaceDock, it could conceivably be made much less likely to fail. Replacements could be found more easily for people who leave the team. 

What kind of active support are we talking about here? How would Squad help an unaffiliated, semi-professional individual or group find staff replacements? 

Quote

It would definitely be trickier to manage than the Curse partnership... 

This is much of my point. 

Quote

I still don't understand why Squad picked such an unpleasant partner as Curse. 

Not everyone finds it as "unpleasant" as you do. 

Quote

Yes, someone would have to keep track of what the most popular community repository actually is... could get awkward if there were two community-run competitors of roughly equal popularity... 

Or even just someone else who thinks he/she/they deserve inclusion on the forum as well. Where does Squad draw the line? What do they say to the people not included? 

Nothing you suggest is impossible. But most of it opens cans of worms that do not lead to good places, and all of it requires diversions of Squad staff time and resources which would be better spent on making the game itself, And all to what purpose? So that players could have access to mod repositories other than the one you dislike. Which they already have. 

Quote

... not a hint at even asking what we would like to use,

Because you are still free to use whichever one you like, so you've lost no options, been denied nothing. 

Anyway, I think I will withdraw from the discussion now. We're all just repeating ourselves. 

[Curveball Anders]

When people use word like 'we' or 'the majority' one should be aware that the majority of KSP users actually just play the game, they don't even browse the forums.

And the minority that does just browse for tips, few of the minority even registers or even less posts a single question or comment.

It's not unique for KSP, it's the norm for every game on the market. Actually, KSP users might break the norm by being more active, but it's still a very small vocal minority that's represented on the forums.

So when you see stuff like "the majority dislikes <whatever>", you might want to ask: "what majority?"

 

[John FX]

14 hours ago, sal_vager said:

If ckan can use curseforge then there's nothing to imply, just use ckan and don't go to Curse, problem solved.

This is my preference. My issues with curse are all related to their site, adverts etc. I really don`t care where the files CKAN downloads come from.

I`d like CKAN to have a few download options for each mod so it would be more robust.

[parachutingturtle]

9 hours ago, Hotaru said:

In fact I suspect such a list, updated irregularly and frequently left out-of-date, would do more harm than good by directing people to old, defunct sites and away from new, active ones. What I would like is for Squad to call attention to the main community repository, especially if it's so successful it actually hosts more mods than their own official partner.

For instance: suppose when you click "Get Mods!" in the KSP menu or on the forum header, instead of taking you straight to Curse, you get a dialogue with two options: Official Site (takes you to Curse) and Community Site (takes you to SpaceDock). Yes, someone would have to keep track of what the most popular community repository actually is, but based on the history of KSP mod repositories so far, that wouldn't be too hard. (It could get awkward if there were two community-run competitors of roughly equal popularity, but that seems unlikely at the moment.) And if there simply stopped being a popular community option, that button could just go back to sending people straight to Curse like it's always done. 

Just wanted to throw my support into this side of the discussion..

While I confess I have not taken the time to read this entire thread, from what I have read it seems that a lot of the discussion is about which mod site is better and why is curse bad and what should be "official". I don't think this discussion is helpful at all, we all have our preference, and we've seen Squad's stance on this and frankly they are right to stick to whatever official solution they want, we can't/shouldn't expect more of them or pressure them on that front, IMO.

What we should expect though, and put pressure about it on Squad if necessary, is the official KSP website+forum to visibly acknowledge the existence of alternative mod repositories, or, as Hotaru suggested, at least the largest/most popular one. I strongly disagree with the notion that it would be "too much effort" to maintain such a link. It really is a simple task. Besides, the community can always help point out where to go for mods.

The reason this is actually important is because the majority of KSP players, especially new ones, will only find the Curse site now. And (as previoulsy pointed out in this thread), they will think that's the only / the definitive mod collection, which it clearly is not.

(Also, Curse indeed is badly designed and just repulsive in general.)

Edited February 21, 2016 by parachutingturtle

[Hotaru]

5 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

So that players could have access to mod repositories other than the one you dislike. Which they already have. 

I think this is where you misunderstand me. It's not about what we have access to. Obviously Squad isn't forcing us to put our mods up only on Curse, nor, as far as I know, have they ever considered doing such a thing. It's more about Squad's attitude towards the community.

On the whole, Squad is extremely supportive of the community that has developed around KSP, which is one of the things I really love about them and this game. The whole mod repository business is a glaring exception, and it could be fixed with the simple addition of one extra link each to the game, KSP home page, and/or this forum, leading to whatever the most active community mod site is at that moment, if such a site exists. This would be extremely simple to implement, and would require only occasional, cursory checks on the situation to maintain. It would not take significant dev time away from making the game. 

[Superfluous J]

I wish sometimes that the worst thing I'd ever experienced was the Curse website. Then I could hate it abjectly and think Squad supporting it was tantamount to torture, aimed directly at me to make my life on this Earth a spiral into an abyss of depression.

[Hotaru]

4 hours ago, Curveball Anders said:

So when you see stuff like "the majority dislikes <whatever>", you might want to ask: "what majority?"

In the case of KerbalStuff and Curse, it was the majority of people who upload and download mods. Whoever they were exactly, more of them went to KS than to Curse. 

 

5 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I wish sometimes that the worst thing I'd ever experienced was the Curse website. Then I could hate it abjectly and think Squad supporting it was tantamount to torture, aimed directly at me to make my life on this Earth a spiral into an abyss of depression.

I wouldn't suggest that partnering with Curse was specifically meant as an insult to the community. I think it was neither more nor less than a questionable business decision. Frankly, I think partnering with such a tacky site makes Squad look bad, especially if people frequently end up on the main Curse site with its huge T-Mobile banners everywhere and not the much less horrible, and ad-free, Curse Forge site. 

Still, I think the fact Squad's official mod hosting site had less activity than its community counterpart--which itself was created entirely as a response to Curse--should be a hint that the Curse deal just isn't working out as well as Squad expected, and that they should at least contemplate alternatives. That could mean finding a better outsourcing partner, building their own site, or supporting a community-run site. All the choices (including just sticking with Curse) have pros and cons, but I don't believe any of them would be prohibitively difficult. 

[Guest]

Seeing as you guys are discussing about what the majority of forum users prefer, here's a fun fact:

Searching for "kerbalstuff.com/mod" brings up 213 results.

Searching for "curse.com/ksp-mods" brings up 26 results.

Searching for "spacedock.info/mod" brings up 64 results.

Searching for "github.com" brings up 607 results.

EDIT: Searching for "kerbal.curseforge.com/projects/" brings up 25 results.

You can even check this if you want to. Just search for the words I used in the Forum Search thingy.

EDIT 2:

By 5thHorseman:

"However I must point out that the forum search is pretty bad and I wouldn't trust it at all. Far better is google.com's search. If you search for "site:forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com github.com" (without the quotes) it'll give a far more reliable number.

Searching for "kerbalstuff.com/mod" brings up 15,400 results.

Searching for "curse.com/ksp-mods" brings up 8,280 results.

Searching for "kerbal.curseforge.com/projects" brings up 1,030 results.

Searching for "spacedock.info/mod" brings up 1,500 results.

Searching for "github.com" brings up 30,500 results."

 

So yeah. Curse is definitively not the most used mod hosting website, and there's facts to prove it.

SQUAD promotes Twitch streamers, youtubers, modders and artists from its community (a.k.a. Daily Kerbal), why not promote a hosting service made from the community?

Edited February 21, 2016 by Guest

[Curveball Anders]

10 hours ago, Hotaru said:

If Squad actively supported an official mod repository like SpaceDock,

Spacedock isn't an official mod repository, it's at best a community supported site that might be valid given some time.

I don't know why you have your knickers in a twist over Curse, but you might get over it.

[Tig]

6 hours ago, Curveball Anders said:

When people use word like 'we' or 'the majority' one should be aware that the majority of KSP users actually just play the game, they don't even browse the forums.

And the minority that does just browse for tips, few of the minority even registers or even less posts a single question or comment.

It's not unique for KSP, it's the norm for every game on the market. Actually, KSP users might break the norm by being more active, but it's still a very small vocal minority that's represented on the forums.

So when you see stuff like "the majority dislikes <whatever>", you might want to ask: "what majority?"

 

Simple question.  Simple answer.  The majority of people registered and somewhat active on this forum don't like Curse... a majority of mod authors in the past have not linked to Curse.  A minority of the people in the US elect the President every four years.  When people say things like "vocal minority" its a way of diminishing our view point with a round about ad hominem attack instead of pointing out the flaws in our dislike of Curse, which of course is a losing argument because its an opinion in the first place. 

I frankly don't care if I'm in your so-called-majority or not.  Your logic is also flawed because it inherently implies that the people who dislike Curse are not representative of KSP's userbase as a whole.  You *could* be right, I admit that.  But you present precisely ZERO proof to back your claim.  Another person could point out that the Curse supporting crowd are just a "vocal minority" using the same flawed logic.  I choose not to do that.  I will, on occasion, disagree with a person either on this forum or in real life and when I do so I will *disagree with the argument they are making* not attack them personally or as a group.

1 hour ago, Curveball Anders said:

Spacedock isn't an official mod repository, it's at best a community supported site that might be valid given some time.

I don't know why you have your knickers in a twist over Curse, but you might get over it.

Ahh, and know we get to the heart of it.  Your view is right, our view is wrong, and therefore we should "get over it."

This forum needs to hold itself to a higher standard than that type of behavior.

[VITAS]

Hi,

i dont want to interrupt your pationate argument but ive read trough many pages of thread and want to say something about some of the things that came up:

1. SpaceDock is working (and has full CKAN integration by now)

2. Squad offered us non-financial help (within their limits) and we are asking for it whenever we need something.

3. Most of the people working on SpaceDock are IT professionals (including myself). else we wouldnt be able to get such a huge project off the ground (and in that timespan).

4. Theres enough Infrastructure behind the site to cope with the usage it gets (but we are working on expanding it to make it even faster)

5. You might like Curse or not. In the end the mod author decides where he puts his creation and the user has to get it from there. So is there realy a point in a discussion about whats good and whats bad?

6. Curse and Squad are companies and SpaceDock is not so we arent in a rush to make money. So we dont need revenue streams like ads to keep the site alive.

7. Squad has proven to be one of the most social, open and community oriented Game companys i know (and i worked for some). Just think of EA...

8. what more can you ask for than having a site thats owned by the community, run by the community and for the community with direct contact to the company that mad this great comunity even possible in the first place?

...and yes youre a great community fellow eggheads

[Padishar]

1 hour ago, Tig said:

Simple question.  Simple answer.  The majority of people registered and somewhat active on this forum don't like Curse... a majority of mod authors in the past have not linked to Curse.  A minority of the people in the US elect the President every four years.  When people say things like "vocal minority" its a way of diminishing our view point with a round about ad hominem attack instead of pointing out the flaws in our dislike of Curse, which of course is a losing argument because its an opinion in the first place. 

I frankly don't care if I'm in your so-called-majority or not.  Your logic is also flawed because it inherently implies that the people who dislike Curse are not representative of KSP's userbase as a whole.  You *could* be right, I admit that.  But you present precisely ZERO proof to back your claim.

So, where is your proof (or even vaguely convincing evidence) of either of those statements...?  Smacks rather of the pot calling the kettle black to me...

[John FX]

It`s all a bit moot now in my opinion, Curse isn`t going anywhere, there is a new community alternative to replace the community alternative that has ended so for all intents and purposes we are in EXACTLY the situation we were in before.

 

So a majority or a minority of people like or dislike Curse. So what?

There are alternatives, free ones too...

[kcs123]

What happened to KerbalStuff can happen and probably would happen in the future with any other mod or community driven project.
Moders in most cases create their mods just for having some fun and only because they have passion and love to do it. At some point of development they suffer from "burn out" effect. Happens when mod grow up and require more and more tedious and time consuming tasks to keep maintenance.

So at some point of development, such project no longer provide same fun as it does before, passion lowers and with the number of tedious tasks growing up any moder comes to the hard decison to stop maintain it. Sometimes it is due to lack of free time, sometimes due to lack of funding to keep it up.
Often, only reward that moder receive is simple "thanks" from community. But that "thanks" and some feedback about mod can be a huge moral booster for any moder. If you don't have money for financial support, just send some feedback from time to time to let them know that thir work didn't left unnoticed.

What is awesome in this community, when some moder no longer can maintain mod, sombody else step in and continue work. Happened already with some other mods and happened again with KerbalStuff/SpaceDock. @SirCmpwn, thanks for all previous work in the past and thanks for helping SpaceDock staff to continue your work. Also thanks to all folks behind SpaceDock and everybody involved to make it happen.

However, all that drama about KerbalStuff have revealed different problem. That is lack of proper communication between SQUAD, moders, regular users and mod hosting sites. Don't get me wrong, SQUAD already doing much more than most of other companies. I'm happy to see that some of moders become regular staff. Probably there is no better worker than those that already showed their passion to KSP project. But already good communication have to be improved more.

Around KSP project is community that include everybody: from kids to students, teachers, people from IT sector to real rocket scientists. Most valuable asset in KSP project is not SQUAD as company or developers of KSP, it is this community. In most of aspects KSP is pioneer. There is no other game that have provided so much fun and it is educative at the same time. Also there is no project that have gathered such community like that have gathered around KSP. That means you can't just copy-paste dealing with community like other companies deals, SQUAD need to be pioneer in this area too.
 

Meaning, from SQUAD side, you should not wait for something to happen and react to it, you should be more proactive and try to help where help is needed before something bad happens. From moder side, if you fall in some kind of trouble that prevents you to continue work on mod, don't hesitate to ask for help, whatever you need help with, this community have already proove that you will get help in one way or another.

[Guest]

 

1 hour ago, Padishar said:

So, where is your proof (or even vaguely convincing evidence) of either of those statements...?  Smacks rather of the pot calling the kettle black to me...

You could have just rolled the page up a bit and read what I said.

5 hours ago, Aperture Science said:

Seeing as you guys are discussing about what the majority of forum users prefer, here's a fun fact:

Searching for "kerbalstuff.com/mod" brings up 213 results.

Searching for "curse.com/ksp-mods" brings up 26 results.

Searching for "spacedock.info/mod" brings up 64 results.

Searching for "github.com" brings up 607 results.

[Tig]

1 hour ago, Padishar said:

So, where is your proof (or even vaguely convincing evidence) of either of those statements...?  Smacks rather of the pot calling the kettle black to me...

Perhaps you could read this entire thread?  Perhaps you could read the entire thread when Curse was announced?  The response was so overwhelmingly negative that there is simply no reason to count the posts.  Feel free to engage in the exercise if you wish...  I believed it to be so well know that I didn't need to provide the link, but I guess I do.  Very well: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/71567-the-curse-thread/&page=1   Suffice it to say that from reading these threads, including the 59 page one, there is ample evidence that people don't like Curse and aren't just a "vocal minority", as opposed to what the person I was responding to was writing (which was utter conjecture and theorized that the boards are not representative of the greater KSP community.)

 

My objection was not to the theory he proposed... but that he then assumed it true with no evidence, then referred to people who don't like curse as a "vocal minority" who should "get over it."  That's not discourse; it's dismissive and unneeded.

 

Furthermore, literally 2 posts before mine is the very evidence you requested vis-a-vis mod authors:

5 hours ago, Aperture Science said:

Seeing as you guys are discussing about what the majority of forum users prefer, here's a fun fact:

Searching for "kerbalstuff.com/mod" brings up 213 results.

Searching for "curse.com/ksp-mods" brings up 26 results.

Searching for "spacedock.info/mod" brings up 64 results.

Searching for "github.com" brings up 607 results.

You can even check this if you want to. Just search for the words I used in the Forum Search thingy.

 

So yeah. Curse is definitively not the most used mod hosting website, and there's facts to prove it.

SQUAD promotes Twitch streamers, youtubers, modders and artists from its community (a.k.a. Daily Kerbal), why not promote a hosting service made from the community?

Before you go about being nasty perhaps you should read the thread, or at least the prior 3 posts.

 

EDITED:  Lol, ninja'd by the most appropriate person to do so...  thanks AS

Edited February 21, 2016 by Tig

[Padishar]

3 minutes ago, Aperture Science said:

You could have just rolled the page up a bit and read what I said.

That says nothing about the first statement and you haven't included results for curseforge, nor do I believe there are only 607 threads on this forum that contain a link to GitHub so it fails the "vaguely convincing" qualification for the second statement too.

[Skalou]

5 hours ago, Aperture Science said:

Seeing as you guys are discussing about what the majority of forum users prefer, here's a fun fact:

Searching for "kerbalstuff.com/mod" brings up 213 results.

Searching for "curse.com/ksp-mods" brings up 26 results.

Searching for "spacedock.info/mod" brings up 64 results.

Searching for "github.com" brings up 607 results.

You can even check this if you want to. Just search for the words I used in the Forum Search thingy.

I think we don't have the same link to the official website:

 

[Tig]

1 minute ago, Padishar said:

That says nothing about the first statement and you haven't included results for curseforge, nor do I believe there are only 607 threads on this forum that contain a link to GitHub so it fails the "vaguely convincing" qualification for the second statement too.

Yeah, my post however does respond.  So did many users when Curse was announced.

"nor do I believe" so, you just think AS made it up?  And it fails your personal standard?

sigh...

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Skalou said:

I think we don't have the same link to the official website:

[snippity snoopty, removed image linking to curseforge]

 

 

Updated my original research post with the curseforge link. Brings up 25 results.

21 minutes ago, Padishar said:

That says nothing about the first statement and you haven't included results for curseforge, nor do I believe there are only 607 threads on this forum that contain a link to GitHub so it fails the "vaguely convincing" qualification for the second statement too.

I just updated my original research. It brings up 25 results.

It also saddens me that even after me quoting you, you still did not read my original post. If you did, you'd know that you can literally just search for what I searched using the "Search..." feature. It's on the top left of the forum's header.

Go ahead and search for "github.com". Heck, even search for the other things. Please.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Guest