Devnotes Tuesday: Two sprints down, one to go!

[swjr-swis]

9 hours ago, Claw said:

It should, but if you pass me a specific example, I can check for certain.

@Claw Generic examples: almost any conceivable 0.625m probe with its own size reaction wheel, every other 1.25m probe one can randomly slap together with their own size reaction wheel, and many 2.5m probes with their own size reaction wheel (there's a pattern here ).

In most cases, engaging any of the SAS modes other than stability, the craft will end up pointing several degrees off the node you actually requested; in particularly bad cases it keeps jittering around the edges of the navball symbol rather than centering on it. Which makes any SAS modes other than stability next to useless and forces one to point manually at the wanted node when one wishes an accurate burn (!).

You could wait for some people to slap a few probes together for you, but seriously, literally almost ANY 0.625m/1.25m and many 2.5m satellite-like craft using their own size reaction wheel show this problem.

In any case, here's a quick save file with craft files for three basic satellites in three sizes that display this issue. The three sats are sitting on the launchpad already; hack gravity and stage to send them up in the air, when they have enough airtime start testing the SAS modes. Watch the SAS never quite managing to center on ANY of the nodes, with the smaller sats even skirting completely around the navball symbol.

I do hope this issue has finally been resolved with the mentioned fixes, it's been a long time since I could trust SAS when I need to do accurate burns.

[RocketSquid]

I have another question:

How are the ranges of modded antennae calculated?

[Terwin]

19 hours ago, Avera9eJoe said:

Brainstorming... you could probably make a mod that has you send out comm stations and then have them periodically break and give you contracts to fix them? @nightingale?

If you deploy USI-MKS bases with power supplies and antennas around Kerbin and disable the DSN, that seems like it may to fulfill your requirements.(even if you leave the DSN active, those bases should provide a slightly shorter hop than the heart of Kerbin).

Might need to leave a pilot in each base for the 'accumulate wear over time' aspect to work though.   (there is probably a setting so that wear accumulates without occupants, but I have never bothered to look for it)

(if the bases have nuclear power plants, then you will occasionally need to refuel them even without occupants)

 

[HafCoJoe]

28 minutes ago, Terwin said:

If you deploy USI-MKS bases with power supplies and antennas around Kerbin and disable the DSN, that seems like it may to fulfill your requirements.(even if you leave the DSN active, those bases should provide a slightly shorter hop than the heart of Kerbin).

Might need to leave a pilot in each base for the 'accumulate wear over time' aspect to work though.   (there is probably a setting so that wear accumulates without occupants, but I have never bothered to look for it)

(if the bases have nuclear power plants, then you will occasionally need to refuel them even without occupants)

 

Eh - I'm a stock part extremist though

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, RocketSquid said:

I have another question:

How are the ranges of modded antennae calculated?

It depends.  In default mode, it just checks that they are mutually within range.  In 'Root' mode, which is a separate toggleable option, it is a combination of both the source and destination antenna (very similar to how RT calculates this).  When in root mode, default ranges are chopped in half, so two similar antennas will behave the same in both root and non-root play.  This is at the code level, so it should also work on all non-stock antennas that use ModuleDataTransmitter (tho you will need to update these configs to take advantage of the new parameters).

[Claw]

7 hours ago, WhereAmI said:

I personally think auto strutting between vessels that dock (or auto strutting between two connected docking ports) is a very good idea because vanilla docking ports do not provide strong enough connection. As the result, they shrink under load and that just look weird.

Then it works out, because you'll be able to do that!

 

I see there were some other questions, and I'm not sure if they were all answered. So the auto struts are set up like this:

- If the player does nothing at all and starts the game like normal, noting will have changed.
- If the player elects to turn on AdvancedTweakables, then the option to AutoStrut will appear in the right-click menu for all parts. (Other options will also show up, but we're taking autostruts now.) Enabling the AdvancedTweakables only gives access to the option in the right-click menu. It does not automatically start strutting.
- For a given part, the player can cycle the AutoStrut system to no connection, connect to the root part, or connect to the heaviest. It's an AutoStrut because that joint will continue to update throughout the flight. If there is a new root part or new heaviest part, the AutoStrut joint will move.
- This is not like KJR because it's creating a new joint, only where the user specifies, and within certain limits.

4 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

You could wait for some people to slap a few probes together for you, but seriously, literally almost ANY 0.625m/1.25m and many 2.5m satellite-like craft using their own size reaction wheel show this problem.

In any case, here's a quick save file with craft files for three basic satellites in three sizes that display this issue.

Thanks. With hundreds of bugs to deal with, any time saved is time spent on fixing rather than hunting.

Also, we can never be certain we have fully replicated a given scenario without some sort of information beyond words (even just a picture helps). It's sometimes too easy to misunderstand or misread, and I'd rather do it right.

 

 

 

 

[HafCoJoe]

18 minutes ago, Claw said:

I see there were some other questions, and I'm not sure if they were all answered. So the auto struts are set up like this:

- If the player does nothing at all and starts the game like normal, noting will have changed.
- If the player elects to turn on AdvancedTweakables, then the option to AutoStrut will appear in the right-click menu for all parts. (Other options will also show up, but we're taking autostruts now.) Enabling the AdvancedTweakables only gives access to the option in the right-click menu. It does not automatically start strutting.
- For a given part, the player can cycle the AutoStrut system to no connection, connect to the root part, or connect to the heaviest. It's an AutoStrut because that joint will continue to update throughout the flight. If there is a new root part or new heaviest part, the AutoStrut joint will move.
- This is not like KJR because it's creating a new joint, only where the user specifies, and within certain limits.

Amazing... I'm looking forwards to what people might do with being able to change strut locations within flight by transferring fuel... One quick question which I don't know if you'll be able to answer, do you know if autostruts have any lag advantage over a normal struts or parts? When building in excess of *cough* 1k parts, the little things matter

Edited August 4, 2016 by Avera9eJoe

[0111narwhalz]

25 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

[snip]

Not entirely sure that answered the question. I think Squid was asking if there was an automatic way of calculating an antenna's range from existing parameters. Modded antennae, for example, won't necessarily possess the "range" parameter. Is there a way of providing this value from those components which exist? And if not, what is the default value?

[beelzerob]

Roverdude, I know "DSN" can be completely disabled.  What does that mean if it is?  Does that mean that for a communication line to exist, it has to see KSC (not just Kerbin)?  So in other words, geo-synch satellite sitting above KSC as a final relay leg will get it done?

 

I'd love to see more to do as well, even though I've never been to any body outside the Kerbin SOI.  I just think of EVA, though, and it seems like it is completely wasted as a means for fun technical challenges so far.  If it weren't for KIS/KAS, I can't think of why you'd ever really have to go EVA except for getting science points.  With KIS/KAS, I've built space stations with 4 separate kerbals all floating around.  A bit like herding cats since they're always floating out of range, but still....  I will keep using KIS/KAS, but I do wish there was some stock love for EVA.  (and you don't need to point out the lack of love for stock IVA, it is known).

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by beelzerob

[Mjp1050]

16 hours ago, Astrofox said:

Aw man, Whack-A-Kerbal has been renamed to Object Thrower?!

What? What is this blasphemy? I don't want to throw objects, I want to whack Kerbals!

[swjr-swis]

2 hours ago, Claw said:

Also, we can never be certain we have fully replicated a given scenario without some sort of information beyond words (even just a picture helps). It's sometimes too easy to misunderstand or misread, and I'd rather do it right.

How about a video showing the thing: link to the video

It shows two things: the inability of SAS to accurately point at any of the nodes, and the weird way it moves in a seemingly random direction before it start moving towards the node you just told it to.

Edited August 4, 2016 by swjr-swis

[NathanKell]

Yes, 'veteran' is just a flag now, it's not hardcoded based on name. Only the First Four will be generated with that flag on, but mods can of course do what they like.

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, Claw said:

- For a given part, the player can cycle the AutoStrut system to no connection, connect to the root part, or connect to the heaviest. It's an AutoStrut because that joint will continue to update throughout the flight. If there is a new root part or new heaviest part, the AutoStrut joint will move.

A few final (until I think of more) questions:

1) This is available in-flight? Your wording implies it but just making sure.
2) What if there are 2 or more "heaviest part"s? I'm thinking of when I dock a ship with 3 orange tanks to another with 6 orange tanks, all 9 full.
3) What are the rules for determining "root part" of a ship made up of multiple docked ships?
4) Will there be a way to see the autostruts in the game, like how we can turn on temperature and aerodynamic overlays?

1 hour ago, swjr-swis said:

link to the video

This video also shows the "start turning 90 degrees from the direction you end up turning" bug I was talking about before.

[0111narwhalz]

12 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

1) This is available in-flight? Your wording implies it but just making sure.

Pretty sure this relates to the behavior in which the autostrut switches targets whenever the part list changes.

[RoverDude]

6 hours ago, beelzerob said:

Roverdude, I know "DSN" can be completely disabled.  What does that mean if it is?  Does that mean that for a communication line to exist, it has to see KSC (not just Kerbin)?  So in other words, geo-synch satellite sitting above KSC as a final relay leg will get it done?

Up to the mod at that point.  It essentially removes Kerbin as a control point.

[beelzerob]

2 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Up to the mod at that point.  It essentially removes Kerbin as a control point.

Hmm...I didn't mean with mods.  I'm guessing I mis-understood.  I thought turning DSN off was part of the difficulty settings, but I guess you're telling me it requires a mod to turn it off?

If that's the case, and a mod was made that only turned DSN off....then Kerbin is no longer a control point.  Is the KSC a control point already?  Or would the mod have to make KSC the control point? And if it did, would LOS around the planet be respected automatically or would that have to be part of the mod as well?  Just wondering, if I wanted to build my own Kerbin-based network, how far I can get without having to wait for mods.

Thanks!

 

[Claw]

10 hours ago, Avera9eJoe said:

One quick question which I don't know if you'll be able to answer, do you know if autostruts have any lag advantage over a normal struts or parts?

I don't know for sure, and I'm not sure if it's been profiled. The default expectation would be that it's a bit better performance, since it's a joint and doesn't require any graphics manipulation.

 

7 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

1) This is available in-flight? Your wording implies it but just making sure.
2) What if there are 2 or more "heaviest part"s? I'm thinking of when I dock a ship with 3 orange tanks to another with 6 orange tanks, all 9 full.
3) What are the rules for determining "root part" of a ship made up of multiple docked ships?
4) Will there be a way to see the autostruts in the game, like how we can turn on temperature and aerodynamic overlays?

Oi, the insatiable appetite for information!

1) Maybe.
2) It picks the first one.
3) The "root part" is the "root part." A vessel, no matter how many things have docked to it, has only one root part. The root part is picked based off of the standard docking rules.
4) Likely no, but we'll see.

[0111narwhalz]

1 hour ago, Claw said:

2) It picks the first one.

First one as determined by what, exactly? Part ID? Position in the list of the "save file?" (but obviously the equivalent that's loaded in memory, not the persistent)

59 minutes ago, Claw said:

4) Likely no, but we'll see.

Since autostruts can only go to a single part, this could be achieved via a simple two-tone colored overlay. Color 1 indicates those components which have autostrut enabled. Color 2 indicates the target of all the struts; the heaviest part.

[Claw]

1 minute ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Position in the list of the "save file?"

Yes. Parts are stored in a list. It runs through the list in order, from #0 to the end. Once it finds a maximum, it holds onto that till it hits a higher number.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Claw said:

The root part is picked based off of the standard docking rules.

Instead of asking the obvious question, I googled "root part ksp vessel docking rules" and found a very informative post by a forum member you may know.

Thanks for the answers! Also, I now know why a ship I was using to transport a large rover was rock-solid and then suddenly - near the end of the journey - became noodley. The auto-strutting to the very large fuel tanks on the transfer stage switched over to strutting to a part on the rover when the transfer stage's tanks got less massive than the orange tank on the rover.

[KerbMav]

On 3.8.2016 at 3:12 PM, Jasper_f said:

Squadcast from 16/06/2016

Timestamp: 5:00 min

Question: “Can we disable the DSN” 

Answer: “ Yes, the DSN can be turned off”.

*Edit*

Found the answer by RoverDude in the same Squadcast. Timestamp: 23:42 min"If you want to do a RemoteTech style relay system, just set the DSN to 0 and you will have to build the whole thing by hand. It's absolutely an option."

I have some more, more specific questions for @RoverDude :

"Set DSN to 0" - where are science reports received in this case? Is KSC the last receiving link in the chain and will it work similar to a rover on any other body regarding occlusion?

Speaking of which: occlusion is being included I remember, but simplified - so every body is seen as a perfect sphere I guess, mountains not hindering the signal?
(What about places below "sea level" of the body though?)

Loss of signal will impair control - in which way exactly?

Edit: Somehow my phone did not show me the last posts in this thread.
So, DSN can only be completely deactivated and will have to be replaced by a mod - no simple reducing communications to KSC?

Edited August 5, 2016 by KerbMav

[NathanKell]

@5thHorseman Autostruts won't restrut unless the vessel is modified, so probably what happened was they were still strutting that tank _despite_ it being light now.

[brusura]

Will we be able to program a probe to execute a burn at time t when the probe has lost signal with kerbin?

[beelzerob]

7 minutes ago, brusura said:

Will we be able to program a probe to execute a burn at time t when the probe has lost signal with kerbin?

It won't be like remote tech.  You'll never completely lose signal with a probe, but you'll instead have "degraded" control when there is no signal path.  My guess would be something like the throttle only goes to full on or full off until signal is restored.  Also, no signal delay.

[Guest]

On August 2, 2016 at 7:37 PM, SQUAD said:

With that out of the way Mike and Brian (Arsonide) teamed up to implement a new, slick debug window which has some neat features for developers and modders such as allowing a user to input commands directly into the game. Brian’s argument that “a picture says more than a thousand words” leading to the conclusions that by posting four of them meant he would not have to contribute to the devnotes for the next couple of months were quickly and ruthlessly crushed by an overzealous Community Lead – but the end result is definitely worthy of showing off: http://i.imgur.com/U357GQM.png

Oh, wow.  My mod was made stock.  Cool.  I'll continue my development because it still has more features.   

EDIT: The mod is Kustom Kerbals.  (Bottom right of the picture)

Edited August 5, 2016 by Guest