Scotius Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Why do i have horrible feeling you are imagining a Cenobite, when you're talking about this suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Scotius said: Why do i have horrible feeling you are imagining a Cenobite, when you're talking about this suit? Even didn't think about them. Just suggesting tested and proven solutions from real world. Also, I believe that it's the most probable way the airless suit will be looking like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCgothic Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Wow, expected it to be longer than that tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said: skeptical of the potential of a market for "just people As well you should be. Let's say our guess is correct and SX does perceive a market that does not yet exist. We and they won't know the perameters for decades, perhaps centuries - and that is presuming the market is truly ready to come into existence. As with all new markets, the players won't be small fish. There will be opportunities to service the market and remain free - but getting into the market is going to be at the mercy of the big players. I analogized the Age of Sail earlier - which is probably inapt... AoS created a market for making intensely local existing markets available for international exploitation. There are no existing markets outside of what we are already doing - so I think it's going to be more like what @mikegarrisonsuggested with 'there was no market for internet search providers, until there was'. And while the computer realm is replete with stories about garage start-ups... That only happened once costs came waaay down. Decades after computers were invented. I think the only thing that we can assume is that if SX & etc. succeed in getting costs down and cadence up... Something will happen. A long time after 'just people' will have a chance to get in. And then it gets really big. Edited August 12, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKI Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 14 hours ago, mikegarrison said: Huh? Concorde ran on jet fuel and could land and take off at existing airports all over the world, with no new infrastructure. This is certainly not true of Starship. Concorde didn't need new infrastructure to land/take off, but it couldn't be used beyond a single use-case of a passenger based trans-Atlantic supersonic flight path. It had limited cargo capacity, passenger capacity, range, massive fuel consumption, and the sonic boom problem forced it to only fly only over water. Combined this means the Concorde was forced to essentially fly trans Atlantic. Yes it could take off/land from any traditional airport, but it never could leverage almost any existing infrastructure. At the end of the day the Concorde is just a really bad comparison, so it isn't saying much to say "Starship should be more flexible than Concorde". Almost everything is more flexible than the Concorde hahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 What we need is a Trans-pacific solution... And since the 80s pop-sci has envisioned something like Starship P2P (or a Shuttle - type lander). But even with several flights per day - I don't see the costs as anything but... (... I don't want to say the obvious...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakaydos Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: What we need is a Trans-pacific solution... And since the 80s pop-sci has envisioned something like Starship P2P (or a Shuttle - type lander). But even with several flights per day - I don't see the costs as anything but... (... I don't want to say the obvious...) ...First class? The movie wasnt THAT bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKI Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 How far can Starship go without the booster anyways? Has anyone ran the numbers on Starship alone for P2P? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, MKI said: Concorde didn't need new infrastructure to land/take off, but it couldn't be used beyond a single use-case of a passenger based trans-Atlantic supersonic flight path. It had limited cargo capacity, passenger capacity, range, massive fuel consumption, and the sonic boom problem forced it to only fly only over water. Combined this means the Concorde was forced to essentially fly trans Atlantic. Yes it could take off/land from any traditional airport, but it never could leverage almost any existing infrastructure. At the end of the day the Concorde is just a really bad comparison, so it isn't saying much to say "Starship should be more flexible than Concorde". Almost everything is more flexible than the Concorde hahaha. Starship shares lots of the Concords problem and inflates others. for one you need lots of people flying at once and the launch pad is not at the airport so you need to travel to the offshore site and wait for all boarding, then its fueling and launch. Repeat at other end, move to airport and then flight to destination. Except then you have travel between major cities, but business travels are slowing down and becomes more like tourist travel as in multi day meet and greet events rater than an meeting you can just do online. Starship P2P is very nice for the emergency drop in cause of war or natural disasters. This will probably use an semi disposable version with the dragon heat protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKI Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 1 minute ago, magnemoe said: Starship shares lots of the Concords problem and inflates others. for one you need lots of people flying at once and the launch pad is not at the airport so you need to travel to the offshore site and wait for all boarding, then its fueling and launch. Repeat at other end, move to airport and then flight to destination. Except then you have travel between major cities, but business travels are slowing down and becomes more like tourist travel as in multi day meet and greet events rater than an meeting you can just do online. Starship P2P is very nice for the emergency drop in cause of war or natural disasters. This will probably use an semi disposable version with the dragon heat protection. I personally don't think the economics of a P2P focused Starship will work out for these reasons. However, unlike Concorde, Starship will be used beyond just P2P, and trying out P2P wont cost nearly as much as a dedicated program like Concorde. If you have multiple "starbases" setup for orbital launches to LEO/Moon/Mars, you already have the infrastructure for P2P. I just don't think the economics work out well enough per-launch to make it mainstream. However, I could see there being a scenario where you go on a vacation to LEO and go to other parts of the world using Starship by just landing at different "starbases". Still no cheap at all though haha. I'm also not sure if the advantages of using a Starship based "rescue" or "fast response" program makes much sense compared to existing means. A helicopter/plane might be slower, but its cheaper, resilient and more flexible. I think some US agency already reviewed the capabilities of a "space-based transportation/response system" for these means and found similar findings. There are just too few scenarios where a few hours difference in response is important enough to have a dedicated platform for it. Leveraging easier access to space opens up much more avenues though. (Orbital Drop Shock Troopers anyone???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 This is a bit esoteric - but IIRC, several months ago there was speculation about SS tiles, and whether they might use a scale pattern as opposed to the hexes they settled on. Recognizing that snakes and fish use scales that make them really efficient in one direction... Would there be any benefit to scales on SS - where in forward orientation they help air/plasma to distribute across the surface, but then during the landing phase could 'fluff out' and help with the deceleration (instead of a smooth cylinder, the scales would also catch the air) Perhaps a naive question - but just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakaydos Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 31 minutes ago, MKI said: How far can Starship go without the booster anyways? Has anyone ran the numbers on Starship alone for P2P? There was an old elon quote suggesting it could do hypersonic skips out to 10,000 km even without a booster. That's dated information at this point, though. 7 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: This is a bit esoteric - but IIRC, several months ago there was speculation about SS tiles, and whether they might use a scale pattern as opposed to the hexes they settled on. Recognizing that snakes and fish use scales that make them really efficient in one direction... Would there be any benefit to scales on SS - where in forward orientation they help air/plasma to distribute across the surface, but then during the landing phase could 'fluff out' and help with the deceleration (instead of a smooth cylinder, the scales would also catch the air) Perhaps a naive question - but just curious. The real advantage to scales is that they can be grown from one edge, an important factor for organic life. Being able to affix tiles from the center is something no living creature can match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rakaydos said: Being able to affix tiles from the center is something no living creature can match I understand the mechanical advantages of this - just curious about whether there is a trade off - as in losing the ability to increase drag by having the scales 'fluff' (This is one of those 'I don't know if it is smoothness or cross section' that matters questions - clearly 'scales would not increase the cross section in a meaningful way... But they should be draggy.) Edited August 12, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunlitZelkova Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 18 hours ago, sevenperforce said: And ooooooh this is MAJOR shade..... But a rocket and an uncrewed cargo spacecraft are very different from an EVA suit. I don't think the comparison is worth anything. Not to say that SpaceX couldn't necessarily do it for cheaper than the current xEMU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Ima gonna just drop this here,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 19 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said: But a rocket and an uncrewed cargo spacecraft are very different from an EVA suit. I don't think the comparison is worth anything. Not to say that SpaceX couldn't necessarily do it for cheaper than the current xEMU. Self-evidently different, but there is simply no reason it should cost that much. Dragon while uncrewed was fully pressurized, and crew Dragon is substantially based upon it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said: Ima gonna just drop this here,,,, Heh, now I'm picturing some greasy old space mechanic in 2087 wrenching on a beat-up Starship in some asteroid docking bay, grumbling to his droid about "kids these days and their fancy fusion drives, back in my day..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrandedonEarth Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, CatastrophicFailure said: Heh, now I'm picturing some greasy old space mechanic in 2087 wrenching on a beat-up Starship in some asteroid docking bay, grumbling to his droid about "kids these days and their fancy fusion drives, back in my day..." Lol, well, I am serious with that comparison. I believe Musk would like to crank out tens of thousands of these (in many different flavors) over time, just keeping that production line running, building and licensing others. He's building the machine that builds the machines, and then building more of those machines. Which is like comparing a custom coach building shop of traditional aerospace to the' Model T production line of SpaceX Edited August 13, 2021 by StrandedonEarth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 7 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: I understand the mechanical advantages of this - just curious about whether there is a trade off - as in losing the ability to increase drag by having the scales 'fluff' (This is one of those 'I don't know if it is smoothness or cross section' that matters questions - clearly 'scales would not increase the cross section in a meaningful way... But they should be draggy.) Roof tiles overlap downward and on one side, this allow for expansion and movement. An design who might work out well as the tiles are thin. One problem is that during landing they will face the wrong direction, the other is that its harder to manage forces on them, not an issue for roof tiles who you can walk on. Last issue is that if an SS tile cracks in two it will stay in place, if an roof tile cracks the bottom part is free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 1 hour ago, StrandedonEarth said: Model T production line of SpaceX Certainly the latest videos of the walk through interview are interesting. I see pictures of other space companies' manufacturing - and everything is in a clean room (look at anything related to Webb). Musk is building rockets in tents and driving them down the road on commercial crawlers. Rocket engines going on and off outside. It's almost like he's treating them as machines - rather than super special fragile one-off custom creations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Rockets need to sit out in the rain here on Earth (which can sometimes be a problem ), and any on mars have to sit around til the next return launch window at the very least in the dust. So I guess the Boca Chica facility isn't surprising. That said, Webb is a different animal, it's a telescope, sending it to space dirty would be a Bad Idea™. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 If the plane flights were delayed and cancelled as often as rocket launches, people would still travel by hot air balloons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakaydos Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 4 hours ago, kerbiloid said: If the plane flights were delayed and cancelled as often as rocket launches, people would still travel by hot air balloons. At the very least, rail would get a lot more priority. More reason to build a more weather-resistant rocket, thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 More reason to use a more stable trasport like the planes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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