Kerbal Space Program update 1.3 Grand Discussion thread.

[TriggerAu]

5 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Since folks tend to post their wish lists on these announcement threads, I have a very simple one: Backwards compatibility. It would be a big boost in quality of life for modders and players if no further breaking changes were made to the APIs. Just think how nice it would be if the next release's announcement thread didn't have several people complaining that it was crashing because they still had out of date mods installed. Or think how KSP's mod portfolio would no longer be at risk of shrinking over time once old mod versions (many impossible to update due to license restrictions) continue working without modification.

I say it's simple (and I speak from experience on that) because all you have to do is avoid removing functions or changing their type signatures, which is comparatively easy as dev tasks go because you always know when you're doing it (your IDE may even have a flag to check for it). New functionality can always be added via new functions, and in C# that includes overloads. It's fine to change behavior if an old function can no longer be supported as-is, for example CelestialBody.theName could have been updated to return CelestialBody.name in 1.3 instead of being removed completely.

I realize that no response can be given due to "NDA" and plans-can-change, but I do think this is at least worth considering.

I wouldn't call that covered by NDA HebaruSan. We spent a bunch of time trying to minimize the impact the release would have on Mods, and there's a lot that were handled as mentioned above, but with grammar and gender rules in particular we had to make decisions in a couple of areas that would have an impact. In those cases we made changes so that KSP AND Mods can use the fields in translated versions and the grammar will still work - for example in some languages "the Mun" doesnt apply, but with the new structures it comes out right for everyone.

We did document it all up at the time and share it with the prerelease to try and minimize the impact, but rest assured the changes we did make were made trying to minimise update requirements and make things best all round

[Tiankay]

2 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Usually the expectation is that once you buy a finished game and install it, it will continue to work. (Hint, backwards compatibility. )

Yes, but usually the expecation is that people dont tamper with the game in any way. If your installing mods your altering the game in a way not intended by the developer of said game, and no developer can account for that when writing updates. Its a absolutely usual thing for moddable games that they tend to break everything everytime an update gets pushed out. Backwards compatibility is a nice idea, but since modders change just about EVERYTHING in the game, the only way to provide it is to not update at all anymore.

Peace
TK

[LoSBoL]

6 minutes ago, Tiankay said:

Yes, but usually the expecation is that people dont tamper with the game in any way. If your installing mods your altering the game in a way not intended by the developer of said game, and no developer can account for that when writing updates. Its a absolutely usual thing for moddable games that they tend to break everything everytime an update gets pushed out. Backwards compatibility is a nice idea, but since modders change just about EVERYTHING in the game, the only way to provide it is to not update at all anymore.

Peace
TK

I can see that point of view, but KSP is inviting you to use mods even on their own official website. Modding the game is as idiot proof as it can get. Yet the autoupdate feature of Steam gives you no warning that there is an update coming, and neither is SQUAD. The update just drops and many are caught by surprise. You have to search for ways to prevent the game you are playing from getting broken this way. I read that SQUAD never gives releasedates up front, but an announcement in advance that the update is imminent accompanied by a friendly warning to modplayers and maybe a link to some suggestions to prevent mod and save breaking could do wonders.

[bewing]

When a version goes into prerelease, that's your friendly warning that it's imminent.

[LoSBoL]

9 minutes ago, bewing said:

When a version goes into prerelease, that's your friendly warning that it's imminent.

True, and although you can't explain everything to everyone, there are ways to communicate in assisting in a smoother transition to your playerbase. not everybody reeds between the lines.

[ThirdOfSeven]

10 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

True, and although you can't explain everything to everyone, there are ways to communicate in assisting in a smoother transition to your playerbase. not everybody reeds between the lines.

I recommend you and everybody who use mods but still doesn't do this: Make a permanent copy of current version in Steam (by copying folder into another place, yep) before modding it. To 1) Save original version untouched 2) Have your modded version intact when game is updated.

[LoSBoL]

1 minute ago, ThirdOfSeven said:

I recommend you and everybody who use mods but still doesn't do this: Make a permanent copy of current version in Steam (by copying folder into another place, yep) before modding it. To 1) Save original version untouched 2) Have your modded version intact when game is updated.

Thank you. And that's all there is to it really, 2 sentences. Fortunately I knew this in advance. 

[Blaarkies]

4 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Sort of. It is indeed good advice at this point, but there's no reason for someone who bought since the last update, installed a few mods, and doesn't read the forum to expect that it'll randomly stop working one day. Usually the expectation is that once you buy a finished game and install it, it will continue to work. (Hint, backwards compatibility. )

The game works, the mods do not. If the game does not work, the out-dated mods are breaking it. It is nothing special, same thing happened with Skyrim while it got some patches and updates, same thing keeps happening to World of Tanks, and Minecraft, Medieval Engineers, and i am guessing any game that can use mods suffers from this. Installing mods has always been an at-own-risk thing.

Although i do not agree with how Steam installs these updates (single-player games should be playable even without doing the latest update), there should be a confirmation setting for this type of event

[ThirdOfSeven]

By the way, bug tracker still has no version 1.3 in it. You can't filter by this version and can't submit bug in this version.

And I have many of them in 64-bit Linux version like this. Templates for messages are not processed correctly, producing almost unreadable strings with placeholders (present in English version as well).

Edited May 26, 2017 by ThirdOfSeven

[The Moose In Your House]

Is this update have anything besides the "kerbal word" thing?

[Just Jim]

8 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

"Wissens." ?

 

8 hours ago, Nightmare said:

Wissenschaftler?

Yes, and rocket scientist is: Raketenwissenschaftler. Rocket Science itself is: Raketenwissenschaft

I don't speak it nearly as well anymore, and I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on the German language, I'm not. But I do see what @bewing means... some words translated into German are really, really long.... It may take a little re-adjusting to get everything to fit onto the KSP screens and all that in the game.

 

[basic.syntax]

New players go through this in every update cycle: worries about broken mods, how to keep playing old version until X is updated.  I have been around for a few cycles, so I know to make a backup of the installation.

Steam is a bit at fault:  All they let me do is choose between auto update, or defer an update until it's started thru Steam launcher.  Steam could really use a per-game option to "notify me when an update is available / don't update until I approve."  

[JPLRepo]

58 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

 

Yes, and rocket scientist is: Raketenwissenschaftler. Rocket Science itself is: Raketenwissenschaft

I don't speak it nearly as well anymore, and I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on the German language, I'm not. But I do see what @bewing means... some words translated into German are really, really long.... It may take a little re-adjusting to get everything to fit onto the KSP screens and all that in the game.

 

We had to deal with that for the languages in 1.3 and we have made allowances where we can for possible future languages.

[Just Jim]

3 minutes ago, JPLRepo said:

We had to deal with that for the languages in 1.3 and we have made allowances where we can for possible future languages.

Good to hear, the more the merrier! I'm making friends on here from all over the world!!!  

[adsii1970]

8 hours ago, bewing said:

Have you added KSP's digital certificate to your trusted keychain?

 

@adsii1970 was thinking about making new ones. I hope he does! I'll add it a second after I see it.

 

I will get right on that... with the hecticness of the last semester over (it was incredibly rough for a spring semester), certain things fell by the wayside...

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, ThirdOfSeven said:

As native Russian speaker playing KSP for years already I find this localisation great and, on the other hand, will not use it and stick with English. Cause it is worse than original anyway. You speak "Кербин", not "Kёрбин" in it, like we used to hear. You call Probodobodyne "Горизонд". It sounds funny, but now I can't understand many things and need to relearn something just to have "native language". While missing ability to easily communicate with much larger and rich (ideas, mods, content) community speaking English, cause too much differences exist. Apart from that, there no other major changes in game, new bugs (caused by localisation), remaining old bugs (with physics). 1.3 is coming too soon to be really good update for me, honestly.

I think that's common throughout all languages. A translated version is torture if you have the ability to experience something in the language it was written in. That goes for movies, books and computer games as well.

But for those that can't... I see KSP as a fantastic motivator for children to get excited about science and engineering. This removes a barrier for younger players, especially when their native language is far removed from English.

[StupidAndy]

i just realized i bought KSP 1 year ago yesterday

am i good at predicting or what?

[JustAToy]

4 hours ago, bewing said:

I assume you are on steam, and didn't save a copy? Probably best to save a copy of your current 1.3.0. Then in the client, right click on KSP, select Properites/Betas -- and select "Previous_1.2.2".

This was what I discovered.   Worked just fine end of problem.   Kerbal and station snacks reunited.   

 

 

[kokospl]

1 hour ago, Kerbart said:

But for those that can't... I see KSP as a fantastic motivator for children to get excited about science and engineering. This removes a barrier for younger players, especially when their native language is far removed from English.

If you want to become a rocket scientist, you probably should learn English anyway.

[ThirdOfSeven]

1 hour ago, Kerbart said:

I think that's common throughout all languages. A translated version is torture if you have the ability to experience something in the language it was written in. That goes for movies, books and computer games as well.

But for those that can't... I see KSP as a fantastic motivator for children to get excited about science and engineering. This removes a barrier for younger players, especially when their native language is far removed from English.

Yep, and you are the only person giving me really nice reason for removing language barrier in KSP in all discussions I had. Children!

[Kerbart]

57 minutes ago, kokospl said:

If you want to become a rocket scientist, you probably should learn English anyway.

An 8 year old Chinese girl can have dreams. She needs to learn English first, for her to be encouraged in pursuing those dreams?

[klesh]

 Will future development continue to add more languages?

[pizzaoverhead]

21 hours ago, UomoCapra said:

* Fix green line appearing in water.

Wow, the gap between the near and far cameras when rendering the water? This must be the oldest KSP bug that's ever been fixed! It's been there since, what, 0.10? Nice to see the team taking a keen eye to polish issues.

[Jimbodiah]

16 hours ago, archnem said:

First 15 minutes:  Yay new update!  This is gonna be awesome!  Asteroid day in stock!  Cool!  Level runways!  Awesome!

 

After 15 minutes:  Why is there no @#$! delta-V readout in stock?!  Man, I suck at interplanetary transfers!  I wish I had a maneuver planner.  No alarm clock? Ugh!  Where are my clouds?!

Once you try modded, you never go back. I will wait until 90% of my mods are updated for my main game. But sounds like only a minor update in terms of functionality? SO I think a lot of mods will work with it already.

[Rune]

Gotta wait for me mods (especially now that I have a graphics card from this decade), but everything smells pretty good from here. Caught a couple of bugs I was interested in, got a couple of mods I use stockified (give me KAC and KER, polish the graphics, and I'll stop using mods! ), general polish... Good update, maybe a tad light in content, but that's because I cared little for the localization personally. All in all, good job guys!

 

Rune. Now get cracking on Making History!