Spontaneous Combustion

[Presari]

So I have this pretty ambitious ground station on Duna, took lots of launches, skycrane landings, rovering long distances (due to my limited ability to land at target)... well, you get it.

Anyway, this is what happens every time I switch to the station...

 

This time, two of the three inhabitants somehow survived. (I've learnt the hard way to quicksave and immediately hit warp when I switch views...)

Cheers!

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Presari

[Vanamonde]

This is a known issue and it's being worked on for the next version, but unfortunately, there is no fix at the moment.

[Superfluous J]

You could install HyperEdit and put it in orbit of Duna (without ever going to it to control it). I *think* it wouldn't explode when loading it then.

What you'd do with it at that point, I'm not sure. Maybe decouple, reland (again with Hyperedit, or with VesselMover which makes it a bit easier to pinpoint land) and then install SimpleLogistics, so you can share resources without docking the parts together.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by 5thHorseman
Found a newer (but still not current) version of VesselMover.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

I keep seeing this, and I keep hearing it's a known issue, but I haven't run into it and I'm not sure why. I just built a base on Duna about a week ago. It's 5 different modules I assembled on the ground. I haven't had any issues at all. Is this maybe an autostrut thing? That would make sense since I despise it and never use it. Obviously not complaining about not running into a problem. Just a little confused as to the cause.

[linuxgurugamer]

Vessel mover for 1.3.1 is available here

 

[katateochi]

I've had this issue with some large bases. Seems that as the game is trying to figure out how to place it when loading, part of the base can end up clipped into the ground and that results in explody doom. 
My work around has been to open the debug menu and switch on unbreakable joints and no crash damage before switching to the base, wait for it to load and physics to kick in and then switch those options off again.

[Presari]

Yes, I see this as one of the many curiosities of KSP, it's workaraund-able, so not that much of a big deal, and it makes for entertaining explosions   (as long as you've remembered to do a quicksave...) The exploding fairing bug was much worse IMO, but they fixed that pretty quickly.

One possible cause to this particular instance could be that I pulled the spring strength of the landing struts to max in the VAB. I did this so that I'd be able to dock the segments regardless of their weight, while having all the docking ports at the same height for quicker builds (I didn't want to have to test-dock each segment). Maybe the lack of flexibility makes the game physics go nuts.

One idea would be to make the docking ports separate automatically at a certain level of non-linear abuse. That way the docking ports would separate before something else explodes.

[KerikBalm]

sometimes large craft will shake themselves apart even in orbit - this could have nothing to do with it being a surface base.

I've found excessive use of autostrut can make this more likely to happen, and sometimes the only change needed to prevent this is disabling the autostrut of certain parts... but from other people's postings, this doesn't solve it all the time.

[Snark]

20 hours ago, Presari said:

Anyway, this is what happens every time I switch to the station...

Another possible mitigation:  put it on legs.

I've noticed that KSP can be  bit ... wonky ... about figuring out the "collision" between objects resting on the surface, and the surface they're resting on.  This can get particularly pronounced if the objects are large and complex (lots of parts joined together) rather than small and simple.

My totally uninformed guess (which might be wrong) about why it's worse for big things is that there may be some physics "sag" involved:  i.e. a large compound structure sags and bends a bit under gravity as it conforms to the surface, but then when you switch back to the ship from somewhere else, it initially is placed in an "unsagged" shape (before physics kicks in) which may cause pieces of it to clip slightly inside terrain, resulting in hilarity when physics kicks in.

My solution for this, when building bases, has been to make sure that no part of the base rests on the ground except for landing legs.  That is, the whole base is supported on landing legs, and there aren't any other pieces that are just sitting there.

Why does this help?  Again, this is just uninformed speculation, but my guess is that it's this:  landing legs have special code handling them so that the base's stored "position" is floating slightly off the ground, and the "feet" of the legs auto-conform to the terrain rather than clipping inside it and causing a collision.  It works because the legs have some "travel" to their suspension, so as long as the positioning error due to physics easing isn't any bigger than the available travel distance on the legs, then everything's okay.  Instead of panicking "oh noes I'm clipped inside the ground it's a COLLISION!" and having a physics hissy fit over it, instead the game simply raises the leg's foot until it's right at ground level.

I can tell you that the "perch it on legs" approach has definitely helped me in a variety of cases with surface bases.  What I don't know, though, is whether your problem is the same as my problem, so I don't know whether this will actually help you in your case.  For example, a lot of folks here have mentioned autostruts, and if autostruts are at the root of your problem, then the leg thing might not actually help.  (I was using the "put it on legs" solution before autostruts were even a thing.  Big surface bases have had issues for a while.)

Anyway, don't know if this will help you in your particular case, but it may be worth a shot.  Just one more thing to try.

[Kerbital]

10 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

sometimes large craft will shake themselves apart even in orbit - this could have nothing to do with it being a surface base.

I've found excessive use of autostrut can make this more likely to happen, and sometimes the only change needed to prevent this is disabling the autostrut of certain parts... but from other people's postings, this doesn't solve it all the time.

I had huge problems with vessels either twisting/shaking themselves into weird forms or just falling apart/exploding. I nearly stopped playing as I like to build large vessels. Someone told me here to stop using autstruts. I stopped using them altogether. I just use Kerbal Joint Reinforcement mod. It still happens, but very rarely.

[GoSlash27]

The Kraken scoffs at your puny kerbal attempts to colonize it's domain...

I'd recommend not assembling long, spindly bases using small docking ports. Better yet, don't assemble them together at all.

Best,
-Slashy

 

[cratercracker]

Can you separate the modules?

[Presari]

On 12/2/2017 at 8:04 PM, cratercracker said:

Can you separate the modules?

Sure, but this build was a career mode mission with lots of requirements, so at least at one point it had to be a single station.

On 12/2/2017 at 4:27 PM, GoSlash27 said:

The Kraken scoffs at your puny kerbal attempts to colonize it's domain...

Yes, this is what I suspect also...

[Presari]

On 12/1/2017 at 6:33 PM, Snark said:

Another possible mitigation:  put it on legs.

It might not be that clear in the video, but it actually is on legs. It is indeed possible autostruts are to blame, there's a lot of them, because each wheel and landing leg seems to have "Autostrut Locked: heaviest part" on them.

 

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:59 AM, Presari said:

One possible cause to this particular instance could be that I pulled the spring strength of the landing struts to max in the VAB. I did this so that I'd be able to dock the segments regardless of their weight, while having all the docking ports at the same height for quicker builds (I didn't want to have to test-dock each segment). Maybe the lack of flexibility makes the game physics go nuts.

I think this has to be your culprit. I've looked at your screenshots to see if I can spot anything that clearly sticks out (nice base, by the way), but I don't see anything. I assemble bases on the ground as well; without these kinds of problems. Wheels and legs have always seemed a bit iffy, so I've never messed with the spring or dampener strength. I think this has to at least be contributing to your problem.

As for lining up the docking ports, I find that as long as I build everything with the same base, and test one or 2 on Kerbin, they'll work just fine later. You're usually going to be building somewhere with much lower gravity so, although they'll sit a bit higher, you can easily "bump" them a bit if the alignment is slightly off-line. A little tougher with the fuel lines (how I usually refer to the little connecting modules), but they're so light you can usually bounce them up and down to get 'em in place.

Anyway, that really sucks. It's a good-looking base, and I know the amount of work that went into it. My current Duna base I just constructed was an 11-ship convoy. And it was only 5, self-connecting modules. I wonder if there's a way to change the springs and dampener back to normal on-site. Maybe a mod, or plug-in of some sort?

[mystik]

48 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Anyway, that really sucks. It's a good-looking base, and I know the amount of work that went into it. My current Duna base I just constructed was an 11-ship convoy. And it was only 5, self-connecting modules. I wonder if there's a way to change the springs and dampener back to normal on-site. Maybe a mod, or plug-in of some sort?

Congrats on your demonic 666 post. Anyways, it may be just a temporary issue. I would recommend pressing Alt+F12 and disabling the damage on ships. Load the base, let it jump around, let it settle a bit, check the springs, then deactivate the cheat. If that still happens, install hyperedit mod, then slightly change the position of the  base so that it sits on flatter ground. I know it is not "orthodox", but then again neither is having these annoying bugs.

Edited December 5, 2017 by mystik

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

35 minutes ago, mystik said:

Congrats on your demonic 666 post.

Thank you, sir. 

For the record, I think we're in agreement. I hate cheats as much as the next guy, and I take my career seriously, but he's put in way too much work to just reload or throw in the towel. At this point, I think you do whatever is necessary to make it work, and just think of it as "maintenance". If you wanna pay a price for it, just launch a 2 million dollar rocket and wreck it. Call that the maintenance cost. 

(Though none of this solves the greater problem of instability. I hate to see it, and am always thankful that it hasn't really afflicted me).

[mystik]

4 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said:

Thank you, sir. 

For the record, I think we're in agreement. I hate cheats as much as the next guy, and I take my career seriously, but he's put in way too much work to just reload or throw in the towel. At this point, I think you do whatever is necessary to make it work, and just think of it as "maintenance". If you wanna pay a price for it, just launch a 2 million dollar rocket and wreck it. Call that the maintenance cost. 

(Though none of this solves the greater problem of instability. I hate to see it, and am always thankful that it hasn't really afflicted me).

Yes, cheats kinda ruin the experience, making the game feel empty. However, I think OP should try to do the steps I advised to get around this bug. Consider it a "fix" rather than cheating.

Edited December 5, 2017 by mystik

[invision]

this is the main reason i stopped building bases, almost every single one eventually got weird and exploded.

this doesnt just happen switching to them either, flying over them with another craft can cause the same outcome.

[Omaha]

I ran into this problem just last night with a much smaller ship and a much smaller body.  I sent a prototype lander to Gilly prior to sending manned missions there, and touched down without issue on the side of a hill.  (It's hilly on Gilly.)

Album jUhRFlq will appear when post is submitted

I had a second prototype in orbit too, and I wanted to bring it down prior to attempting to return to Kerbin with both of them.  But while I was getting ready to do that, I realized it was getting late so I decided to switch back to the landed one and re-launch prior to quitting for the evening.  But as soon as I switched to the landed ship, no sooner did it load up than it exploded gloriously.  I instinctively did a quick alt-F4 to save the ship (ironically by preventing it from being saved) and went back into the game.  No luck--as soon as I switch to the ship sitting on the surface of Gilly, it violently destroys itself.  It's frustrating; I'll try the debug window workaround since that seems to be an endorsed solution, and this is clearly a malfunction of the game.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

@Omaha, I had a somewhat similar issue on Gilly when 1.2 came out. The large part of drills could no longer enter the ground. Only the smaller part on the end. This meant that a few of my older bases now had their drills set too low. On Gilly, this meant when I switched to my base, it was very violently launched off the surface. I found a work-around, though. I landed another ship about a km away and EVA'd a Kerbal to my base. This allowed me to get it within physics range without taking control right away. I brought my Kerbal right up to it and then switched. Worked just fine. The station was under control and hasn't given me any problems since. Well, no more than anything else on Gilly, anyway. 

Don't know if that'll work for you, but it might be worth a shot.

[Omaha]

@Cpt Kerbalkrunch I did think of trying that, seeing if I could land the second vessel nearby and then directly switch over to the first one, and it certainly would be a good exercise in precision landing.

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

1 hour ago, Omaha said:

@Cpt Kerbalkrunch I did think of trying that, seeing if I could land the second vessel nearby and then directly switch over to the first one, and it certainly would be a good exercise in precision landing.

With Gilly, it's more like an exercise in patience. It takes a looong time to land. And you'll definitely get better in your precision landings. I used to think 2km was close. Now I can knock my solar panels off if I wanted to. Although, in your situation, I would land outside physics range and EVA over. I can't say for sure, but I feel like just bringing a Kerbal (technically a single "part") helped me to ease into physics range. Or maybe it didn't make a difference at all. Who knows?

[Mayer]

I had this with my Mun base, as soon as it came into loading disctance of my 2nd craft, it exploded.

[harrisjosh2711]

Anytime I have landing legs on the surface in 1.3.1 this happens. I just retract my landing legs once I land and everything seems to be fine after that. Definitely something going on with the landing legs.