Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

[Dman979]

Another thread has been merged into this one. Please, guys, let's keep the discussion in one place.

[Kerbart]

8 minutes ago, Errol said:

I am creating a new thread (in lieu of posting in the EULA changes thread) for maximum visibility. I have recently stumbled onto this video:

[...]

And find it very annoying that it is so wrong. The quoted portions of EULA are in reference to information provided during your sign up on the forums, and serves to simply state, for legal purposes, that they are in fact in possession of the information your willingly provided. This type of fear mongering can only serve to hurt this community, and potential future sales (and development funds) for the game. I have chosen not to comment on the video, as youtube comments tend to be far less productive and civilized than discussion here, but I feel that something should be done about it. I did use the youtube report feature, and selected misleading text, however the usefulness of the report feature on youtube has been called into question as of late. 

Thoughts anyone?

I just wouldn't pay too much attention to it. The video discredits itself. It's the kind of video that you see made by tinfoil-hat wearing conspiracy theorists.

I'm not saying the creator of the video is such a person. I'm just saying that the video looks like one made by such a type and will be viewed as such. With the DPRG gone into effect and KSP's legal ownership housed in the EU, I'd by highly surprised if T2 can monetize such data, assuming (a) it exists and (b) they would want to monetize it.

It's late at night here and I'm going to sleep now. This video will not keep me awake. Rather the opposite.

[Errol]

13 minutes ago, Dman979 said:

Another thread has been merged into this one. Please, guys, let's keep the discussion in one place.

Yeah, I don't know why you moved this. My post is not discussing the changes to the EULA, and as such it does not belong here. It is discussing that troubling video, which, as I stated, I would like as many people in the community as possible to see/be able to respond to. 
 

I am creating a new thread (in lieu of posting in the EULA changes thread) for maximum visibility...

[Vanamonde]

3 minutes ago, Errol said:

Yeah, I don't know why you moved this. My post is not discussing the changes to the EULA, and as such it does not belong here.

The accusations of spyware arise entirely from terminology in the EULA (which I think has been changed already), and I believe this video has been linked earlier in this thread already, too. Anyway, it's all part of the same discussion, so this does belong here. 

[Errol]

Alright, good to know that the language used has been addressed. Is there nothing that can be done to prevent this video from spreading? I just found it today, and even though I have participated in the thread once or twice, I haven't kept up on it continuously. This video is obviously still making the rounds. 

Anyway, just a concerned citizen over here. I'll pipe down now if it seems like I am the only one still hootin and hoolerin on this. 

[Vanamonde]

Quote

Is there nothing that can be done to prevent this video from spreading?  

Not in a free society. If there's any legal action to be taken, which I doubt, that's up to Squad/Take Two. 

[LoSBoL]

Rectification previous post

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 7:54 PM, LoSBoL said:

Ehm… I think that there might have been enough "NO"'s to get notice, did anyone already notice both EULA and Privacy Policy have been updated on the 8th of may?

The whole dreaded 'We may collect all your personal information' has been scraped and replaced by;

"INFORMATION COLLECTION & USAGE

By installing and using the Software, you consent to the information collection and usage terms set forth in this section and Licensor's Privacy Policy, including (where applicable) (i) the transfer of any personal information and other information to Licensor, its affiliates, vendors, and business partners, and to certain other third parties, such as governmental authorities, in the U.S. and other countries located outside Europe or your home country, including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection; (ii) the public display of your data, such as identification of your user-created content or displaying your scores, ranking, achievements, and other gameplay data on websites and other platforms; (iii) the sharing of your gameplay data with hardware manufacturers, platform hosts, and Licensor's marketing partners; and (iv) other uses and disclosures of your personal information or other information as specified in the above-referenced Privacy Policy, as amended from time to time. If you do not want your information used or shared in this manner, then you should not use the Software.

For the purposes all data privacy issues, including the collection, use, disclosure, and transfer of your personal information and other information, the Privacy Policy located at www.take2games.com/privacy, as amended from time to time, takes precedence over any other statement in this Agreement."

I have to rectify my above post, It's been pointed out to me that the EULA and privacy policy has not been changed, except for some wording which had little to nothing to do with the privacy concerns, the above text was already within the EULA, and the 'we may collect all your personal information' (which is continuously pulled out of context, and therefore leading to 'spyware' accusations) is still in the same place its always been, which is in the privacy policy. I feel like an idiot for not reading properly and therefore spreading FAKE NEWS. I'm sorry...

You can read the full context of the 'we may collect your personal information' down below;

 

"WHAT PERSONAL AND OTHER INFORMATION DOES THE COMPANY COLLECT?

Personal information is information that identifies you and that may be used to contact you online or offline. The Company collects personal information from you on a voluntary basis. When you submit personal information to the Company, it will usually take the form of:

Registration for Online Services, websites, jobs, products, contests, and special events;

Subscribing to newsletters or alerts;

Posting in or commenting on our message boards, forums, news blogs, chat rooms, or other Online Services;

Purchasing a product or services through our online stores;

Purchasing downloadable content, virtual items, or virtual currency for use with our software and/or Online Services;

Using "tell a friend," "email this page," or other E-Card features;

Requesting technical support;

Downloading demos, programs, or other software;

Participating in polls, surveys, and questionnaires; or

Otherwise through use of our software, including console products, mobile products, and personal computer products, and through the use of our online products or Online Services where personal information is required for use and/or participation.

The types of information collected in connection with the activities listed above will vary depending on the activity. The information we collect may include personal information such as your first and/or last name, e-mail address, phone number, photo, mailing address, geolocation, or payment information. In addition, we may collect your age, gender, date of birth, zip code, hardware configuration, console ID, software products played, survey data, purchases, IP address and the systems you have played on. We may combine the information with your personal information and across other computers or devices that you may use. Prize winners may be required to provide additional information for prize fulfillment.

If you use, purchase, or register for an Online Service through a third-party service such as a gaming console's network service, an internet based gaming service, or a social network website, or request that we associate a Company account with a third-party service account, then limited user account personal information may be transferred to the Company as part of the registration process and we may be able to collect information about your use of the Online Services. For example, if you purchase virtual currency through a gaming console service, that gaming console service will provide us with information to effectuate the transaction, including the amount of virtual currency purchased and a means to identify your Online Service account.

When you use an application on a Social Networking Site ("SNS"), you allow us to access certain information from your profile from that SNS. The information you allow us to access is affected by the privacy settings you establish at the SNS. For example, our Facebook applications may access and store some or all of the following information, as allowed by you, the SNS and your preferences: your "basic information" you have shared with everyone on the SNS; your profile picture or its URL; your friends list, your user ID number, which is linked to publicly available information such as name and profile photo; or other information indicated as part of the "Request for Permission" prompt from the SNS. Your agreement to share this information takes place when you "accept" (or similar terms) one of our applications on an SNS. Once your information is received from an SNS, that information is stored and used by us in accordance with this Privacy Policy. The Company is not responsible for the terms, policies, disclosures or actions of any SNS.

When you use Facebook Connect, OpenID or another multisite ID to log in to an Online Service, those ID services will authenticate your identity and provide you the option to share certain personal information with us to pre-populate our sign up form. Depending on your account settings, multisite IDs may also provide other information to us. Please check the terms of those services before using them to log into an Online Service. When you play certain software products published by the Company, information about your gameplay may be collected and transmitted to the Company through network services or any other internet connection method used by the hardware on which you play such games (collectively and individually your "Internet Connection"). See "What Gameplay Information Does the Company Collect?" below for further details."

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by LoSBoL

[LoSBoL]

15 hours ago, hbk314 said:

 

That makes absolutely no sense, so I hope it's a misunderstanding on your part. I know that in the United States, there's no expectation of privacy when you're out in public, so you can't complain about any pictures you end up in. It's different if the pictures are taken inside of someone's privately owned house, for example.

Well, unfortunately, no misunderstanding. Before the GDPR there were already stingent rules about publishing photo's and video's (at least here in the Netherlands), but they were mainly effecting professional photo and video-graphers, but now if you publish on YouTube and the likes as an 'amateur', you are liable, if you keep in the confines of private use, there is no problem.  Enforcement is a huge issue though, but if someone would like to take the routes, they now can more easily then previously.

[hbk314]

1 hour ago, LoSBoL said:

Well, unfortunately, no misunderstanding. Before the GDPR there were already stingent rules about publishing photo's and video's (at least here in the Netherlands), but they were mainly effecting professional photo and video-graphers, but now if you publish on YouTube and the likes as an 'amateur', you are liable, if you keep in the confines of private use, there is no problem.  Enforcement is a huge issue though, but if someone would like to take the routes, they now can more easily then previously.

I wonder how many more example of legislative overreach there are.

 

If I'm walking down a street on a public sidewalk and happen to be in the background of some picture, there really should be no issues there, even if I have a problem with it. It's just common sense that people are going to see you if you're out in public. IANAL, but I don't believe minors, at least where I am, get any extra protections as far as being photographed in public. I'll take that over what appears to be the GDPR way.

[Lisias]

16 hours ago, Deddly said:

EDIT: If a person wants to use the GDPR to prevent you from recording information that would protect you from his own nefarious activities, I can't see such a scenario holding up in court. Otherwise it would be illegal for the police to keep data on suspected or known criminals.

From the GDPR itself:

Quote

2.   This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data:

[SNIP]

(d) by competent authorities for the purposes of the prevention, investigation, detection or prosecution of criminal offences or the execution of criminal penalties, including the safeguarding against and the prevention of threats to public security.

So, yeah. They knew what they were doing and took explicit measures to prevent locking themselves out. "Death and taxes..." :-)

[Lisias]

Great. Just great. My Intruder Detection System is also GDPR uncompliant.

"Fellow intruder, please authorize this site to use Personal Data (IP Address) for preventing you from attacking this site."

I'm unsure if even the GeoBlock I applied on my customers site is legal under this aspect. (And, as usual, they except themselves - see the underlined text)

From the GDPR (all highlights are mine)

Quote

(71) The data subject should have the right not to be subject to a decision, which may include a measure, evaluating personal aspects relating to him or her which is based solely on automated processing and which produces legal effects concerning him or her or similarly significantly affects him or her, such as automatic refusal of an online credit application or e-recruiting practices without any human intervention. Such processing includes “profiling” that consists of any form of automated processing of personal data evaluating the personal aspects relating to a natural person, in particular to analyse or predict aspects concerning the data subject's performance at work, economic situation, health, personal preferences or interests, reliability or behaviour, location or movements, where it produces legal effects concerning him or her or similarly significantly affects him or her. However, decision-making based on such processing, including profiling, should be allowed where expressly authorised by Union or Member State law to which the controller is subject, including for fraud and tax-evasion monitoring and prevention purposes conducted in accordance with the regulations, standards and recommendations of Union institutions or national oversight bodies and to ensure the security and reliability of a service provided by the controller, or necessary for the entering or performance of a contract between the data subject and a controller, or when the data subject has given his or her explicit consent. In any case, such processing should be subject to suitable safeguards, which should include specific information to the data subject and the right to obtain human intervention, to express his or her point of view, to obtain an explanation of the decision reached after such assessment and to challenge the decision. Such measure should not concern a child.

[Errol]

Darn. Pesky rules. And kids. 

[silverfox101]

This EULA subject is done I think, as far as the GDPR whilst I do agree that you should be able to delete an account on any internet forum I understand the difficulties in doing so on forums such as this. My last words on these matters and probably the forum are as follows -

If you want your account disabled and personal information deleted then discuss it with one of the moderators, reach a compromise. I feel for folk like @Lisias who clearly has his work cut out for him regarding GDPR but that's just the way its going to be and will probably be much stricter in the future.

Regarding the EULA (this comment is not aimed at anyone in particular), All this talk of KSP spyware is just nonsense. We live in a world with CCTV cameras on almost every street, facial recognition being used and some folk are worried about a EULA. People who whilst complaining about the EULA use facebook, twitter and whatever else is out there. Nobody is forcing you to agree to the EULA just stop playing KSP or any other game with a EULA attached its that simple. I disagree with the advertising and running of gambling websites for instance, so what do I do, join a gambling site and start spending money and then on top of that complain about that site....no......I just don't sign up to them or take part in any of their gambling activities.

Im done.

 

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, silverfox101 said:

If you want your account disabled and personal information deleted then discuss it with one of the moderators, reach a compromise.

About this, deleting content and deleting personal information are two different matters. GDPR demands deleting personal info, not copyrightable data. If one wants this copyrighted content deleted, he needs to resort to another law and, so, this is another discussion.

 

1 hour ago, silverfox101 said:

I feel for folk like @Lisias who clearly has his work cut out for him regarding GDPR but that's just the way its going to be and will probably be much stricter in the future.

I really appreciate your sympathy.

However, the real risk is the other way around.

I'm not alone: a lot of people around the Globe are ANGRY. Really ANGRY.

Assuming all this stuff is not hysteria promoted by "Uninformed people jumping into unfounded conclusions due misguided information" (and believe me, I wish to be such a fool right now - I have teenage's time friends and relatives on EU!), we will not just quit doing business on our own country due some foreign countries claiming jurisdiction over our computer's data.

I will not pay for a EU representative so any European can make me work late hours for free by answering privacy claims due servers intended to be used by local customers. I will pay instead for my ISP to just shield me from the whole IP Range Blocks serving EU and EEA directly from the Tier 1 Network. IP Addresses can be "Personal Data", but IP Range Blocks are not - these last ones we can use for sure.

And since most of the free Internet out of Europe are not intended to service Europeans, the aftermath is clear: Europe can be ghosted from the most part of the free Internet.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Lisias
"liquided"??? hehehehehe =D

[silverfox101]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Europe can be ghosted from the most part of the free Internet.

To be honest with you, I aint even seen most of the internet and have no wish to do so. I have choose to have strict controls on with my ISP so it blocks a lot of stuff anyway.

Edited May 29, 2018 by silverfox101

[Deddly]

20 hours ago, silverfox101 said:

Explain why you don't delete accounts please.

Well, there are many reasons, but the biggest reason from the perspective of a regular user is the effect it would have on all other users who have ever had an interaction with that user. Imagine seeing all over the forum posts by nobody and going back through your PM messages and seeing you had a conversation with nobody. You come across a nice guide or mod and it's by nobody, and nobody gave you a bunch of "likes" for some content you provided. Or, depending on how such a deletion were to be handled, imagine all those posts being completely removed along with the account deletion. Imagine the number of broken links, the replies to posts that are suddenly without context... it would be a mess.

Basically, signing up to a public message board like this one is not a private thing - you make posts that are intended to be read by the general public. These posts are all cross-linked and referred to in any number of ways and suddenly removing an account can cause unforeseen problems.

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, silverfox101 said:

To be honest with you, I aint even seen most of the internet and have no wish to do so. I have choose to have strict controls on with my ISP so it blocks a lot of stuff anyway.

It's a choice, and it's yours to make.

However, things start to look bad when others make the choices for you. A&E (History Channel et all) is also blocking EU now. :-( I wonder how they are handling Blazer, but since UK is jumping ship from EU in 9 months, I think they will just wait.

It's not about privacy - nobody on his right mind would be against this. It's about cost. EU is forcing the rest of the World to pay for their party!

Facebook and Google are already being sued. They broke the GDPR? No. They are following the GDPR to the letter - but some EU citizens are complaining about "forced consent" - as these companies had the duty to provide them content without a proper return.

If companies can't make money from a "customer", they don't have any interest on doing business with such "customer" at all. It's plain simple, is how the economics on every country nowadays work. But somehow, some people are entitling themselves the right to be served by private companies for free.

"There's no free lunch". Someone has to pay for the party.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, Deddly said:

Imagine seeing all over the forum posts by nobody and going back through your PM messages and seeing you had a conversation with nobody. You come across a nice guide or mod and it's by nobody, and nobody gave you a bunch of "likes" for some content you provided.

Most days at work I wish I could have a conversation with nobody.  Unfortunately, nobody ever seems to get it.

Inb4 someone makes a KSP forum account with the screename "nobody" 

[Superfluous J]

18 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Inb4 someone makes a KSP forum account with the screename "nobody" 

Nobody would do that!

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, 5thHorseman said:

Nobody would do that!

Hehehe... I could always do a name change...

(no, seriously, don't change my user name. I've had this one since 2005 on various other forums)...

Edited May 29, 2018 by adsii1970

[Jouni]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Facebook and Google are already being sued. They broke the GDPR? No. They are following the GDPR to the letter - but some EU citizens are complaining about "forced consent" - as these companies had the duty to provide them content without a proper return.

If companies can't make money from a "customer", they don't have any interest on doing business with such "customer" at all. It's plain simple, is how the economics on every country nowadays work. But somehow, some people are entitling themselves the right to be served by private companies for free.

GDPR establishes that personal data belongs to the person themself. Those lawsuits claim that the business models of Facebook and Google are fundamentally incompatible with GDPR. The companies take and monetize somebody else's property without permit, which is not that different from piracy.

If the courts hold those claims, the companies must either change their business models or withdraw from the EU. The EU assumes that their market is too large and too important for the major companies to ignore. They are probably right. It is generally understood now that it was a mistake for the Western technology companies to withdraw from China, instead of complying with the local regulations.

 

[Lisias]

38 minutes ago, Jouni said:

GDPR establishes that personal data belongs to the person themself. Those lawsuits claim that the business models of Facebook and Google are fundamentally incompatible with GDPR. The companies take and monetize somebody else's property without permit, which is not that different from piracy.

Granted. So they are asking for such permission. You are not obliged to grant them, but they are not obliged to service you neither.

Yes, once one negate such permission, their data should be promptly and unrecoverably deleted. No arguing about that.

What's plain wrong is demanding the company to service you once you deny them the rights they want to your personal data.

Undestand that I don't denying the abuse they promoted in the past. I'm not defending the abuse. I'm defending a business model where companies receive proper return for services they provide - you don't agree with my fee? Fine. Really. But then I don't have to service you.

Simple.

38 minutes ago, Jouni said:

If the courts hold those claims, the companies must either change their business models or withdraw from the EU. The EU assumes that their market is too large and too important for the major companies to ignore. They are probably right. 

Problem is: if the courts don't hold the claims? Who will pay for the costs?

If you drive minor companies away, and only major companies can withhold the extra financial burden of dealing with Europeans, what do you think it will happens? Yeah, only major companies will deal with Europeans - imposing their fees without fearing competition from the small guy.

Their money, their funeral.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Lisias
yeah. more typos.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

Inb4 someone makes a KSP forum account with the screename "nobody" 

Too late. For 5 years!!! :-)

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/search/&q=nobody&type=core_members

 

 

EDIT: Ouch.. I intended to have this post merged into the previous... Perhaps a bug?

Edited May 29, 2018 by Lisias
ok. you know.

[Jouni]

32 minutes ago, Lisias said:

What's plain wrong is demanding the company to service you once you deny them the rights they want to your personal data.

Undestand that I don't denying the abuse they promoted in the past. I'm not defending the abuse. I'm defending a business model where companies receive proper return for services they provide - you don't agree with my fee? Fine. Really. But then I don't have to service you.

The EU position is that collecting personal data is inherently wrong. It is only allowed with explicit consent, when it is stricly necessary, or when it serves public interests. Anyone familiar with the 20th century European history should understand where this position comes from.

The problem with companies such as Google is that their business models are unrelated to the services they provide. Because the information required for targeted advertising is not strictly necessary for providing web search, they cannot collect that information without consent.

Consent is not a contract. It is only valid when it is freely given. If there is pressure to consent (e.g. by refusing access to an unrelated service), the consent is not valid.

This is the reason why the EU heavily regulates contracts between unequal parties. Even when both parties have entered into a contract, it might not be based on freely given consent, and hence the terms of the contract might not be valid.

Anyway, I'm not really defending the EU position, I'm simply describing it. Foreign cultures often have customs and values that seem alien to outsiders. The outsiders should take these customs and values into account when doing business with these cultures.

[Lisias]

28 minutes ago, Jouni said:

The EU position is that collecting personal data is inherently wrong. It is only allowed with explicit consent, when it is stricly necessary, or when it serves public interests. Anyone familiar with the 20th century European history should understand where this position comes from.

And I agree with them. The problem is what they consider PII Data. Its plain invasive, intrusive and business disruptive.

Anyone familiar with the XIX and mid first half XX centuries History should understand that.

 

28 minutes ago, Jouni said:

Consent is not a contract. It is only valid when it is freely given. If there is pressure to consent (e.g. by refusing access to an unrelated service), the consent is not valid.

Good. So deny the consent and go find someone else to service you.

I offer my services under my own conditions. They are valid where I live and work. You don't need to accept them, neither I need to service you. It's simple. Really.

 

28 minutes ago, Jouni said:

Anyway, I'm not really defending the EU position, I'm simply describing it. Foreign cultures often have customs and values that seem alien to outsiders. The outsiders should take these customs and values into account when doing business with these cultures.

I don't want to do business with such cultures. But they are regulating me nevertheless. That's the problem.

 

EDIT: I'm not "defending" Facebook's practices. I'm defending Facebook's right to provide services under their own (legal) terms. Not because I love Facebook, but because I need the very same rights in order to stay in business.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Lisias
some clarifications