Shower thoughts

[Mr. Kerbin]

Maybe they went to Egypt. That's what their last 3 posts were about.

[ColdJ]

4 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

Yeah, I have no idea what happened to @kerbiloid. With these pings adding up...  (the forum profile says the last visit was January 6th of this year). 

I immediately noticed their absence because I can't play the majority of games threads without them, or get to read their latest theory.

The part of the world they live in is very unsettled at the moment and I find myself fearing the worst.

They have been a fixture of this forum for over a decade, so I don't think they would purposely just vanish.

[FleshJeb]

2 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

The part of the world they live in is very unsettled at the moment and I find myself fearing the worst.

My understanding is that while Kerbiloid is Russian(or former Soviet) by birth, he's lived in Portugal for some time. I've always assumed (without concrete evidence) that he takes robust advantage of Portugal's very liberal drug laws. So, I'm hoping he's just in rehab or taking a break or something.

He and I have many substantial disagreements, but he has an utterly unique sense of humor, is far from stupid, cultured, and when the heat of argument dies down, he's been gracious. That sets him apart from the vast majority of people. We've both been here about 11 years, and I've never spoken to him in private, but I'd miss him terribly if he were gone.

As opposed to some of these folks, who I wouldn't liquid on if they were on fire.

[ColdJ]

5 minutes ago, FleshJeb said:

I've never spoken to him in private, but I'd miss him terribly if he were gone.

Same here.

[SunlitZelkova]

Perhaps a bit less philosophical than most shower thoughts, but I just got out of the shower so here it goes.

The Life of Pi is a great movie. Something I find very eerie about it though is the carnivorous island that Pi encounters. Not so much because of its carnivorous nature, but because of its isolation and mysteriousness. The thought of something so small being adrift in such a vast world is somehow unsettling. Perhaps it is the same effect that drives "lost in space"-type flicks (which I've never understood the appeal of). It also might relate to my interest in ghost ships and abandoned man-made objects.

The Brazilian battleship São Paulo is a real life object that, if a forum user from the Pacific War history forum Tully's Port is to be believed, is the theme of a legend among history enthusiasts, sailors, or both. In 1951, the battleship was due to be broken up, but was lost while under tow. It was never observed sinking, because of the weather at the time it was lost. Eight men were onboard it when the tow cable broke.

The British investigated and concluded it would have sunk within an hour after the tow cable was lost, but according to this forum user, a legend exists that it is still out there, drifting amongst the shipping lanes. Kinda eerie, IMO. Just the thought of going transoceanic yachting and then suddenly coming across a massive, rusting hulk of a warship is frightening for some reason. The forum user said his personal name for the date the ship was lost is Cinco de Maybe.

Perhaps @Lisias could shine some light on whether this legend is true or not? 

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

The Brazilian battleship São Paulo is a real life object that, if a forum user from the Pacific War history forum Tully's Port is to be believed, is the theme of a legend among history enthusiasts, sailors, or both. In 1951, the battleship was due to be broken up, but was lost while under tow. It was never observed sinking, because of the weather at the time it was lost. Eight men were onboard it when the tow cable broke.

The British investigated and concluded it would have sunk within an hour after the tow cable was lost, but according to this forum user, a legend exists that it is still out there, drifting amongst the shipping lanes. Kinda eerie, IMO. Just the thought of going transoceanic yachting and then suddenly coming across a massive, rusting hulk of a warship is frightening for some reason. The forum user said his personal name for the date the ship was lost is Cinco de Maybe.

Perhaps @Lisias could shine some light on whether this legend is true or not? 

Nope, this was a cover history we, Brazilians, published as a smoke screen. 

When Brazil bought Foch from the French**, we were developing secretly nuclear reactors and submarines, but we never managed to miniature the reactor to be shoved on the submarines we had at the time.

So we hired some interesting Japaneses (see the I-400 class submarines), replaced the Foch's propulsion with our too big nuclear ones and converted Foch into a nuclear submarine aircraft carrier using Japanese know-how, and then renamed it São Paulo.

That carrier spending too much time docked under repairs was yet another smoke screen to hide when the ship was in submerged patrol on the Oceans!

Edited February 17 by Lisias
Brazil bought the MHS Ocean from the British, not Foch! :P It's currently named Atlântico. And there's no plans to convert it into a nuclear submarine at the present time... :D

[Mr. Kerbin]

On 5/9/2018 at 6:22 AM, Mark Kerbin said:

If you kill a killer, the number of killers on the world remains constant.

Kill two.

[ColdJ]

5 hours ago, Mr. Kerbin said:

Kill two

or

[B0lt]

You cant have more than everything because that extra of everything just becomes apart of everything 

If that makes sense....

[SunlitZelkova]

8 hours ago, B0lt said:

You cant have more than everything because that extra of everything just becomes apart of everything 

If that makes sense....

In terms of 21st century CE English linguistics yes, but if you define "everything" then you could have more than "everything."

For real though. "40" used to be the byword for "a lot" in Hebrew. There is no issue with defining "everything" as only some things because "everything" is in itself a made up concept.

If one was to regard the true definition of everything as everything, there would be no way to talk about everything. Because the very words and vocal chords being used to speak of everything are part of everything.

You could not weigh everything against something else, because something else is part of everything.

Thus the true "everything" is incomprehensible to human beings and cannot be described using their language.

YOU ARE EVERYTHING.

[ColdJ]

1 hour ago, SunlitZelkova said:

YOU ARE EVERYTHING.

Your not so bad yourself.

Life, the Universe and the Awareness thereof.

[magnemoe]

On 2/17/2025 at 3:09 AM, SunlitZelkova said:

Perhaps a bit less philosophical than most shower thoughts, but I just got out of the shower so here it goes.

The Life of Pi is a great movie. Something I find very eerie about it though is the carnivorous island that Pi encounters. Not so much because of its carnivorous nature, but because of its isolation and mysteriousness. The thought of something so small being adrift in such a vast world is somehow unsettling. Perhaps it is the same effect that drives "lost in space"-type flicks (which I've never understood the appeal of). It also might relate to my interest in ghost ships and abandoned man-made objects.

The Brazilian battleship São Paulo is a real life object that, if a forum user from the Pacific War history forum Tully's Port is to be believed, is the theme of a legend among history enthusiasts, sailors, or both. In 1951, the battleship was due to be broken up, but was lost while under tow. It was never observed sinking, because of the weather at the time it was lost. Eight men were onboard it when the tow cable broke.

The British investigated and concluded it would have sunk within an hour after the tow cable was lost, but according to this forum user, a legend exists that it is still out there, drifting amongst the shipping lanes. Kinda eerie, IMO. Just the thought of going transoceanic yachting and then suddenly coming across a massive, rusting hulk of a warship is frightening for some reason. The forum user said his personal name for the date the ship was lost is Cinco de Maybe.

Perhaps @Lisias could shine some light on whether this legend is true or not? 

Sounds a lot like an SCP story, an undead battleship who would be bad. Also more realistic than some of the other SCP ship stories as it was lost, not destroyed. 

[Mr. Kerbin]

If we assume the Theory of Relativity is completely correct in that going as fast or faster than light is impossible, then a large interstellar civilization is impossible.

If you ask a question to Mission Control at 00:00, you will get an answer at 8:30. That is at NEPTUNE.

If you are Mission Control, and are asking crew at Alpha Centauri “mission status”, you will get a answer in 8 years!

Say you are a empire with the radius of Sun-to-Trappist.

It will take 80 years for info to get from edge to edge.

[ColdJ]

2 hours ago, Mr. Kerbin said:

If we assume the Theory of Relativity is completely correct in that going as fast or faster than light is impossible, then a large interstellar civilization is impossible.

If you ask a question to Mission Control at 00:00, you will get an answer at 8:30. That is at NEPTUNE.

If you are Mission Control, and are asking crew at Alpha Centauri “mission status”, you will get a answer in 8 years!

Say you are a empire with the radius of Sun-to-Trappist.

It will take 80 years for info to get from edge to edge.

And that is assuming that nothing gets in the way of your transmission signal.

There is nothing like being in a small colony, too far to get quick help, to make you realise how precious and fragile life is.

Those that kill in wars over a difference of opinion, because they think Human lives are an infinite resource, should be the first settlers on Mars. Lets see how long they and their opinion last.

[Mr. Kerbin]

Just now, ColdJ said:

And that is assuming that nothing gets in the way of your transmission signal.

There is nothing like being in a small colony, too far to get quick help, to make you realise how precious and fragile life is.

Those that kill in wars over a difference of opinion, because they think Human lives are an infinite resource, should be the first settlers on Mars. Lets see how long they and their opinion last.

And another thing. (joke)

Spoiler

"indomitable human spirit!!!11!!!1111" mfs when the aliens (that broke physics somehow) use "bleep blorp 42511" on earth

(Seriously, what makes you think the interstellar aliens don't have their own "indomitable spirit"???)

Now what I wanna see is..

ADRENALINE WASN'T A MYTH.

BUT T̵̡̖͙̙̻̦̯͓͙͋̈́͛̈Ḩ̶̦̟͈̻̆Ẻ̵̮̰̼̳̹̳̈́̈̃̚ͅȲ̶̨̯̟̥̬̱̮̞͛́̆̌͂̚̚ WEREN'T EITHER... 

 

Okay, seriously.

10 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

There is nothing like being in a small colony, too far to get quick help, to make you realise how precious and fragile life is.

Yeah, imagine you need help to fix something or someone is hurt badly.

There probably aren't surgeons lying around.

11 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

And that is assuming that nothing gets in the way of your transmission signal.

Yeah, imagine waiting 8 years and realizing "oh, antenna's broken."

[SunlitZelkova]

4 hours ago, Mr. Kerbin said:

If we assume the Theory of Relativity is completely correct in that going as fast or faster than light is impossible, then a large interstellar civilization is impossible.

If you ask a question to Mission Control at 00:00, you will get an answer at 8:30. That is at NEPTUNE.

If you are Mission Control, and are asking crew at Alpha Centauri “mission status”, you will get a answer in 8 years!

Say you are a empire with the radius of Sun-to-Trappist.

It will take 80 years for info to get from edge to edge.

I think the issue at hand is why anyone would actually need to go back and forth between stars in the first place. Realistically there will be no resource worth transporting back to the Solar System.

When creating worlds, I have begun to assume that any attempt at interstellar travel will be a one way affair.

A despotic far future USA attempts to do this in one world I have made. They collide with a wormhole a couple hundred AU out and wind up at a different star... 500,000 years in the past. This causes shenanigans in the future when they find their way back to the Solar System, no longer human.

[kerbiloid]

I was downloading a lot via a thin, unstable channel, so had to refrain from disturbing it by excessive network activity.

 At the same time I was unduplicating and sorting the downloaded gigabytes (SearchMyFiles is great, but the HDD and CPU are busy), so I also was mostly reading and doing small things, requiring less system resources.
(My bigger smartphone works via the same wi-fi channel, so it would overload it, too).

Thus, I was launching the browser from time to time, but avoided the 502-hunting.

All the time I was deeply studying the available info about Orion (Dyson's book, General Atomic(s)  GA-5009 docs, available articles), comparing, calculating, 3d-modelling the pusher intestines.
Now I understand the Orion evolution much better, and can definitely say: the actual Orion propellant is a hydrocarbon compound, while the tungsten is a mediator.
As I sad earlier, the pulse unit picture is semi-fake. It lacks internal conical structure (like a H.E.A.T. shell funnel), radiation channel between the nested funnels, filled by plastic, and the filler is not beryllium oxide, it's a hydrocarbonic compound, used as propellant, probably close to the urea-like "oil" on the pusher plate.
They were going to mine the fuel on the icy moons, and the 40-m and 56-m Orion pulse units are 1..1.2 and 1.5 m in diameter, respectively, while the yield is up to to 15 kt (so, the same 380 mm charge is used).
The Orion pulse unit is actually a barrel, with two large nested cones (depleted uranium radiation case and tungsten or maybe even steel cumulative funnel inside). At the very bottom of the barrel there is a small 380-mm nuke.
You can take the empty barrels with nukes from Earth, mine the ice at Enceladus, produce the hydrocarbon fillers for both funnel and radiation channel, and thus save a half or more of the unit mass (several hundred tonnes or more).

Thus, the Orion drive is much more traditional than it seems on the first glance.

The interesting thing is that as the most part of pressure, pushing out the tungsten jet, is provided by electron gas, the actual Orion propellant is not even the hydrocarbon itself, but the electrons, comtained in it.
It's an electron-gas rocket engine.

Also, I unexpectedly understood the curved path of the Orion parts design, why the 10-m Orion magazines are 3.2 m in diameter instead of the honest 3.0 m, that the 20-m Orion design was an atavism, and got all strange sizes of the Orion pusher plates (26 m, 34 m, 40 m, 56 m) by simple calculations.

Also I can say that the 10-m was using 280 mm (11") caliber charges with W54 warhead inside, and the same was the Casaba howitzer original view, while the  20-m and bigger ones use 380 mm (15") caliber, and the delimting factor was the 1 kt yield.

I believe, the 10-m magazine internal structure from the know cut-out Orion picture is inaccurate, and actually the magazines had not one, but two (for the 10-m Orion) and four (for the 20-m) pulse unit Archimedean spiral conveyors inside.
Like the PPSh magazine had.

Spoiler

That's why the 10-m magazines contain 90(+2 spare) units, and the 20-m contain 160(+3 spare) ones.
It's just 2x(45+1) and 4x(40+1) spiral conveyors, of absolutely submachinegun 40..50 rounds per clip.

The strange 3.2 m magazine diameter of the 10-m is because original the Orions were planned to spend 800 units to reach the LEO, and have the same amount in the magazines, but then this number was increased up to 900.
(Notice, that the magazines contain additional stock, and aren't used directly. The operational stock is stored in the propulsion module cylindric body, in conveyors, and it's refilled from the magazines during the coasting periods).
So, I see, that originally the 10-m Orion had 10-ft, 3.0 m magazines, 2x(40+1) = 82 unites each.
When the 800 became 900, they had to increase its capacity and make it 3.2 m, sticking out from the 9 m cylindric body.
While the 6-m magazines of the 20-m, 163 units each, remained unchanged, implementing the obsolete, 800-unit scheme,  and this requires adding uneven, half-empty- excessive layer of the magazines above.

Notice, that the pulse units don't contain fluids, required to launch them.
The operational stock of the propulsion fluid is stored inside the body, in tanks, while the additional units in magazines require external fluid tanks, stored in magazine-like expandable cylindric tanks.

Thus, every 6 "magazines" on the pictures are actually 5 magazines with pulse units and 1 fluid tank.

When they had 800-unit scheme, the things were good. The external additional stock was:
10-m = 2 layers x (5 x 3-m magazines x 80 + 1 x 3 m fluid tank for 400 units)= 800 units + 800 unit amount of fluid.
20-m = 1 layers x (5 x 6 m magazines x 160 + 1 x 6 m fluid tank for 800 units)= 800 units + 800 unit amount of fluid.

But when they changed to 900:
10-m = 2 layers x (5 x 3.2 m magazines x 90 + 1 x 3.2 m fluid tank for 450 units)= 900 units + 900 unit amount of fluid.
20-m = oops... Stayed same, but now requires another layer with either 1 magazine with 100 units of 160, and a mostly-empty tank, or (for symmetry) 2 magazines with 50 units of 160 and two almost empty tanks.

So, the 20-m Orion is a typical "I will think about it tomorrow".

Also the Open Space Force 27-m Orion hull ideally matches the 20-m upper vehicle.
I.e what the 20-m Orion has on top, the 27-m Orion would have inside, with a bigger propulsion module.
So, I guess the 20-m Orion was never studied seriously, it was a pre-design of something bigger.

At the same time, the mentioned 34-m Orion looks like a dead end of the 10-m and 20-m artificial gravity model, when the ship is flipping rather than spinning.  Its size can be easily gotten by adding cylindric habitats around the central cylindric spine, instead of the toroidal habitat.

Also I can say that the Orion escape rocket (and also its command pod) was absolutely stupid, and nobody was thinking that the artificial gravity works in the command pod, too.
They have the main toroidal habitat interior overturned, with furniture on ceiling, because the ship must be flipping for artificial gravity.
But the control room inside the escape rocket, and the dormitory next to it, are "normal", because they sit there during the acceleration periods, and during the radiation storms (it's a radiation walls with additional protection).
Thus, when the ship is coasting, you can only hang in the control room with head down.

And the puny "escape" rocket lacks heatshield, chutes, wings, but has a 90-day food stock. With its own delta-V ~600 m/s.
It thus can't neither land them on aborted launch, nor deorbit, nor return from Mars, nor land on Mars, nor return from te Moon surface to the Moon orbit, nor return from the Moon orbit to LEO, nor abort the failed start to Mars.
It's just absolutely stupid and useless.

Also, the excitement about the Orion interstellar capabilities are overestimated, as it interstellar version would require a 150 km wide pusher plate.
At the same time, its external combustion is still the closest thing to go interstellar.

P.S.
Btw, according to the book, the 10 Gt Sundial+Orion was 1650 t heavy.
I estimated 1 Gt Gnomon and 10 Gt Sundial, and I got that Gnomon is ~100..150 t heavy and ~4.5 m in diameter, while Sundial is ~1200 t  and ~8.5 m. Both lengths are ~1.5 of diameter.

Edited February 21 by kerbiloid

[Superfluous J]

On 2/20/2025 at 2:45 AM, SunlitZelkova said:

I think the issue at hand is why anyone would actually need to go back and forth between stars in the first place. Realistically there will be no resource worth transporting back to the Solar System.

When creating worlds, I have begun to assume that any attempt at interstellar travel will be a one way affair.

A despotic far future USA attempts to do this in one world I have made. They collide with a wormhole a couple hundred AU out and wind up at a different star... 500,000 years in the past. This causes shenanigans in the future when they find their way back to the Solar System, no longer human.

I wrote a story where the only interstellar travel was via "generation ships" that were actually just huge space stations. The only reason they left Earth to begin with was because they didn't need to stay anymore. Recycling and interstellar particle collection + photovoltaic power were enough to keep them going and they were already living in self contained space stations so why not just nudge your ship interstellar?

I likened it to a dandelion's seeds drifting away, only instead of flower seeds on air, it was the Solar System's biological organism's seeds drifting into space.

I still think it may be the most likely way we end up going interstellar.

[ColdJ]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Also, the excitement about the Orion interstellar capabilities are overestimated, as it interstellar version would require a 150 km wide pusher plate.
At the same time, its external combustion is still the closest thing to go interstellar.

I thought you had died.

Please don't scare me like that again.

[ColdJ]

If the scientists are correct and we are due for the magnetic poles to flip. The best chance of survival would be sleeping next to the stored nuclear waste in the underground facilities.

Is that irony?

[magnemoe]

On 2/20/2025 at 4:17 AM, Mr. Kerbin said:

If we assume the Theory of Relativity is completely correct in that going as fast or faster than light is impossible, then a large interstellar civilization is impossible.

If you ask a question to Mission Control at 00:00, you will get an answer at 8:30. That is at NEPTUNE.

If you are Mission Control, and are asking crew at Alpha Centauri “mission status”, you will get a answer in 8 years!

Say you are a empire with the radius of Sun-to-Trappist.

It will take 80 years for info to get from edge to edge.

Yes without FTL an interstellar empire is impossible, communication is too slow, trying to hold the empire together is way harder. 
One issue is that your colonies will drift away from you culturally and also genetic, more so with genetic engineering.
Grow large enough and over long enough timelines you you run into aliens you made. 
Isaac  Arthur made some videos about this saying this is an Fermi paradox solution, an civilization might feel threatened by the increasing alien colonies.
So its an limit to growth. Now the lack of Dyson swarms is more alarming as its an easy solution and even good fusion generate heat. 
And if Mars was was like earth 400 million years ago we would colonized it in the 80's 

[SunlitZelkova]

It's often talked about in the news how corporations like Boeing are "packing their paychecks" or whatever, but I haven't seen much evidence for that and data does seem to show that Boeing is probably so profit focused because airliners are just really complex and expensive to build. Expecting fiscal dynamics to forever remain like those of the 1930s or 40s is just absurd.

Which leads me to a notion I have toyed with: that a lot of late 20th century technology is just too advanced to be sustainable, not in a physical sense but in an economic one. Building an airliner any more sophisticated than a DC-4 is like trying to replace minivans with Lamborghinis. It is unsustainable and will either drive a company into the ground (which is why so many legacy American aircraft manufacturers are gone, victims of mergers) or require government help. What is seen as "unfair tax breaks" for big corporations are probably what constitute the latter.

In a world I have created, I've explored what would have happened if the government continued its early/mid-20th century adherence to anti-trust sentiments and never approved big corporate mergers starting in the late 70s. Air travel in the West simply collapses in the 2000s, because Boeing, which had pushed its competitors out of the civil market by the 1990s, also just can't make a buck building what amount to B-47s with passenger seats for a populace that gives so little in return compared to the Department of Defense. The military is forced to use big transport aircraft as emergency transport for businessmen with contacts overseas, but in time cruise companies begin ordering oceanliners again and passenger rail travel is re-privatized in the USA. A similar situation occurs in Europe, leaving the USSR as the sole country to have a modern airline (albeit always having been enormously smaller compared to its Western counterparts).

I suspect this phenomena may apply to other advanced technologies, especially computers. This is why Big Tech firms are so obsessed with data gathering: not because they are turn-key-tyranny facilitators in waiting or evil masterminds from a James Bond novel, but because the technology they are trying to develop is horrendously expensive and they can't fund it without dramatically upping the ante in terms of "advertising:" literally selling data on people to advertisers so as to charge more for advertising on/with their products, perhaps the Holy Grail for retailers.

This is also explored in my world, although from a different point of view: In 1981, the Defense Communications Agency is given a monopoly on ARPANET and associated technologies (driven in part in response to the Soviet Union building the first lunar base, after the USA failed to land on the Moon over a decade ago). Although personal computers are still developed, the non-existence of a civilian Internet means there is no growth opportunity for PC makers. PCs in this world are basically just glorified typewriters. PC makers aren't able to sustain themselves without releasing new products, and the situation is further worsened by the rise of third-party maintenance firms on account of the simplicity of PCs in this world. Because of this, civilian manufacturers like Apple and Microsoft close their PC divisions by 2011, and by 2020 and world has returned to paper.

This has ripple effects on video games. Because PC technology doesn't develop, video games don't really evolve past the form they took in the 1990s. Console technology does not develop past the PlayStation 1, with this world's Xbox and Wii being more or less copies of the PS1. Because PC technology doesn't develop, no new profits are expected in the video game industry, compounded by a significant rise in the resale of video games in the early 2010s as children outgrew their games and sold or gave them to other people. Video game companies and divisions of electronics manufacturers close by 2014, and by 2030 the only place where video games could be played was at hotels, bowling alleys, and children's restaurants (arcades declined due to consoles and PCs in the 90s and 00s), albeit only legacy 1980s arcade games, with no new developments being worth the expense.

In contrast, although mobile phone technology did not develop past 2G (on account of there being no Internet), its much more widespread adoption among businessmen (businessmen, this world has an interesting turn when it comes to societal roles...) and importance as a communications technology (especially for calling in emergencies) was noted. Because of this, the government colluded with electronics manufacturers to design phones to deliberately break in about 2 years so as to keep up profits. Despite being a real phenomena this amounts to a conspiracy theory among a few disgruntled mobile phone users. PDAs also remained popular to provide the functionality of smart phones in conjunction with the world's primitive mobile phones to businessmen.

All this results in advances in other places. LCD televisions become popular in the 2000s, about a decade ahead of our world, because of there being no market for new PCs, allowing electronics manufacturers to pour capital into TV development. The Blu-Ray disc becomes massively popular as a replacement for the DVD, and because of there being no Internet, video rental stores continue to exist and remain profitable. If you're a film camera guy, this world is for you, because no advances in civilian computer technology mean digital cameras were not commercially viable, leaving people with film cameras until the Atomic Age Collapse.

In contrast, development of technology proceeds apace with our world in the military sphere on account of this world's heightened Cold War. High-powered PCs, LCD displays, and digital cameras are all developed and widespread.