[WIP] UnKerballed Start

[SpinkAkron]

Release thread : [1.6.X] UnKerballed Start v0.8.0

 

Continuing from UnKerballed Start Mod Discussion

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by SpinkAkron
draft of release post

[CobaltWolf]

Continuing something I just saw in the last thread, isn't this just a set of MM patches that move parts around for the most part, along with stuff like maybe like some science stuff? Just config work, basically, with no actual coding or artwork? Then who the heck cares if the original is ARR, if they're just simple configs then they're indistinguishable whether they're copied or not. It's not like Yemo could have licensed putting parts in specific tech tree nodes.

[SpinkAkron]

I've made my first pass at arranging the fuel tanks.  Rather than having the tech level based on fuel tank diameter, I think it makes more sense to have it based on volume.  Some tanks will move up a tier or down a tier but most stayed the same, I think.  I think this will also help guide positioning of modded parts.

Tier 2 Basic Rocketry
Oscar-B Fuel Tank	40
FL-T100 Fuel Tank	100

Tier 3 General Rocketry
FL-T200 Fuel Tank	200

Tier 4 Advanced Rocketry
FL-T400 Fuel Tank	400
FL-TX440 Fuel Tank	440
FL-A150 Fuel Tank Adapter	160
FL-A151S Fuel Tank Adapter	160
FL-TX220_Fuel_Tank	220
		
Tier 5 Fuel Systems
FL-T800 Fuel Tank	800
Rockomax X200-8 Fuel Tank	800
C7 Brand Adapter - 2.5m to 1.25m	800
C7 Brand Adapter Slanted - 2.5m to 1.25m	800
FL-TX900 Fuel Tank	900
FL-A151L Fuel Tank Adapter	600
		
Tier 6 Advanced Fuel Systems
Rockomax X200-16 Fuel Tank	1600
Kerbodyne ADTP-2-3	3000
Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank	3200
Kerbodyne S3-3600 Tank	3600
FL-A215 Fuel Tank Adapter	1200
FL-C1000 Fuel Tank	1200
FL-TX1800_Fuel_Tank	1800
		
Tier 7 Large Volume Containment
Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank	6400
Kerbodyne S3-7200 Tank	7200
Kerbodyne S3-S4 Adapter Tank	6400
Kerbodyne S4-64 Fuel Tank	6400
		
Tier 8 High Performance Fuel Systems
Kerbodyne S3-14400 Tank	14400
Kerbodyne Engine Cluster Adapter Tank	9000
Kerbodyne S4-128 Fuel Tank	12800
		
Tier 9 Specialized Fuel Systems
Kerbodyne S4-256 Fuel Tank	25600
Kerbodyne S4-512 Fuel Tank	51200

The 3 small fuel tanks from Propulsion Systems/Precision Propulsion don't seem like they are particularly 'high tech' and should be available sooner.  A case could be made to put them as low as tier 2 but I've put them in tier 4 for now.

All RCS tanks were moved down to the Flight Control line.  

download and spreadsheet updated.

 

 

 

  

[SpinkAkron]

Big update.  After reviewing what @theonegalen has done with his UBM extensions to support early aviation, I decided I was being way too timid with my tech tree edits.  I scrapped my original plan to move Aviation to tier 2 and instead reworked the early tiers of the tech tree.  Two new nodes have been added to tier 2 - Fabrication and Aeronautics.   Added to Tier 3 are Basic Construction , Early Aviation, and Gadgets.  Tier 4 got one new node - Gizmos.

Fabrication is the new beginning to the Construction line.  This will include structural parts and fuel tanks. It connects to the new tier 3 Basic Construction node, then to tier 4 General Construction.  All fuel tanks have been moved down from the Rocket line with the exception of Basic Rocketry.

Aeronautics begins the Aviation/Aerodynamics line.  This links to tier 3 Early Aviation, then on to tier 4 Aviation.

Gadgets is a new tier 3 node that links from Engineering 101.  It doesn't make sense to me that Survivability (parachutes and heat shields) was the beginning of the Science/Electronics line.  Gadgets take on this role and Survivability links to Advanced Survivablity only.  Gadgets links to tier 4 nodes Basic Science and Gizmos. Basic Science has been de-linked from Electrics, Recycling, and Storage Tech and linked instead to Space Exploration.

New tier 4 node Gizmos links to Electrics, Recycling, and Storage Tech.

I've balanced the additional nodes by lowering the science costs to 3 for tier 2, 10 for tier 3, and 38 for tier 4.  This gives a total of  330 for nodes 2-4 compared to 333 for stock.

screenshot added to 1st post

download and spreadsheet updated.

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by SpinkAkron
removed picture

[Xurkitree]

At what point does one unlock the OKTO? I propose tier 3, but its up to you.

[Superfluous J]

On 1/5/2019 at 2:43 PM, CobaltWolf said:

Continuing something I just saw in the last thread, isn't this just a set of MM patches that move parts around for the most part, along with stuff like maybe like some science stuff? Just config work, basically, with no actual coding or artwork? Then who the heck cares if the original is ARR, if they're just simple configs then they're indistinguishable whether they're copied or not. It's not like Yemo could have licensed putting parts in specific tech tree nodes.

You can't copyright the idea "move this part to this node" or "create this node here" but you can copyright the files that do it. And he did.

Stupid or not, copying those files is illegal yet writing your own file from scratch to do the same thing is not.

Arguably, if something is easy enough to just write it, then there's no need to copy it because you can just rewrite it. If it's hard enough to write that copying it is significantly easier, then it's reasonable to allow the writer to copyright it.

SpinkAkron is doing this the correct way (in more ways than one, Creative Commons A++ would fork again) and just copying all of Yemo's work is not.

[CobaltWolf]

9 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

You can't copyright the idea "move this part to this node" or "create this node here" but you can copyright the files that do it. And he did.

Stupid or not, copying those files is illegal yet writing your own file from scratch to do the same thing is not.

Arguably, if something is easy enough to just write it, then there's no need to copy it because you can just rewrite it. If it's hard enough to write that copying it is significantly easier, then it's reasonable to allow the writer to copyright it.

SpinkAkron is doing this the correct way (in more ways than one, Creative Commons A++ would fork again) and just copying all of Yemo's work is not.

Considering how simple cfg files are, I'd like to see someone prove whether files were copied or not anyways... Seems like a lot of hand wringing over nothing, not like Yemo is still around anyways.

[Superfluous J]

40 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Considering how simple cfg files are, I'd like to see someone prove whether files were copied or not anyways... Seems like a lot of hand wringing over nothing, not like Yemo is still around anyways.

Not getting caught doesn't make it right.

[CobaltWolf]

2 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Not getting caught doesn't make it right.

But when they're so simple as to be indistinguishable, who cares? I'm not saying people should be copying his configs outright, I'm saying it doesn't matter.

[theonegalen]

7 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

But when they're so simple as to be indistinguishable, who cares? I'm not saying people should be copying his configs outright, I'm saying it doesn't matter.

True, but having made a study of Yemo's work, the way he set certain things up is distinctive enough that copy+paste would be obvious. It takes about the same amount of time to retype (or copy+paste one's own template and then modify it) as it would to copy+paste Yemo's code, unless you wanted to make the exact same changes.

@SpinkAkron, I LOVE the new revision! I think my work on UBM Extended is actually a little too granular when it comes to AirplanePlus, KAX, and the SXT propeller parts. On reflection, most people probably don't need 4 nodes of slightly improved propeller parts. It works for how I play it though with KCT, Giving Aircraft a Purpose, and tiny science rewards

I did play a little bit with the other one, Probes Before Crew, and felt it didn't do enough to change the stock tree for my tastes. I intend on starting a new career with the new revision sometime this week, and see if I can give feedback on what would make it work well for plane people like myself.

When it comes to mods/Squad Parts packs, my essentials are AirplanePlus, Making History, Missing History, SCANSAT, Universal Storage 2, Grounded, and Cormorant Aeronology (Shuttle Lifting Body).

All of the NearFuture Mods, CryoEngines, Kerbal Atomics, Kerbonov, KAX, OpenCockpit, WildBlueIndustries, EPL, Maritime Pack, and Taerobee are in my secondary tier of part mods. Just because RAM and my personal playstyle.

SXT also works as either an alternative or a supplement to most of these.

Edited January 8, 2019 by theonegalen

[SpinkAkron]

21 hours ago, Xurkitree said:

At what point does one unlock the OKTO? I propose tier 3, but its up to you.

I've got the OKTO at Flight Control, tier 4.  I moved the small reaction wheel to Stability tier 3 as the lead up to the OKTO integrating the reaction wheels into the probe core.  I'm trying to find/arrange logical connections like that.

Edited January 9, 2019 by SpinkAkron

[Pand5461]

Hello there. I love that probe-first tech trees have got a new round of attention.

I have a general proposition on engines and tanks progress. What's bugging me with this tech tree and has bugged with the stock one is that first 2.5m engines and tanks appear in two separate nodes in the same tier. That does not make sense - the tanks must be available by the moment one unlocks the engine size. So, maybe move one of the 2.5m tanks to General Construction (in which case the Rockomax adapter would at least make some sense to be there)?

Also, on the order of unlocking fuel tanks and engines. Stock tree gets things about right for 1.25m parts, but everything past Tier 4 appears do be just placed in random-ish order with the general idea of bigger -> later. The earlier tiers rather follow the approach "from generic to specialized", which, to my taste, is more logical. In that respect, I think there should be more distinction between booster / sustainer / upper stage tech, just as it is for Reliant -> Swivel -> Terrier progress. Following the same logic, I'd suggest to unlock 2.5m tanks in the order 16 -> 32 -> 8 & 64 (really, by the time a player gets to 2.5m tech 30 parts per vessel are unlikely to be a limitation, and that seems to be the only reason to not give properly-sized tanks right from the start), and the engines in the order Skipper -> Mainsail & Twin Boar in one node + Poodle in another one -> Wolfhound.

[SpinkAkron]

@theonegalen, do you mind if I adapt and include some of your UBM extensions with this mod?  I have zero experience with the aircraft mods.

[SpinkAkron]

@Pand5461, here's my rationale for placing parts. 

In general, I assume if you have the technical ability to make a part, it follows that you should also have the ability to make a larger or smaller version of that part, barring any evident technical limitations. If there is a technical reason why this should not be true, it should require a higher tech level.  For fuel tanks, I believe the tech required would be related to the pressure requirements of the tank.  Larger volumes require stronger tanks.  The shape or diameter is not relevant. There is no reason why you should not be able to make a short tank of larger diameter if you are able to make a tall tank of a smaller diameter, assuming similar volumes.  Whether you are able to build an engine of that size is not relevant.  Conversely, just because you have the ability to build a larger engine, it does not necessarily follow that you have the know-how to build the larger diameter tank that goes with it.  They are two separate technologies, which it why I split them into two different paths.   There should not be any tanks in two nodes on the same tier.  If there is, that's a mistake on my part.

My plan is that the two paths should generally line up, with short tanks often being available at a lower tech than the associated engine.  I've recently decided that I'd like the starting parts to be .625m so that's going to shift everything up the tree a tier or two.   I haven't really thought too much about how engines should be arranged other than bigger is higher up.  I appreciate your input on that.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by SpinkAkron

[theonegalen]

5 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

@theonegalen, do you mind if I adapt and include some of your UBM extensions with this mod?  I have zero experience with the aircraft mods.

You certainly can, although I was hoping to adapt them myself, if that's all right with you. I'd kind of like to improve on  some of my old decisions. :-)

I played with the mod for a few hours today, and I really really like it. The one criticism I have at this point is that the airplane parts are little too sparse in the tier 1 Aero node. Specifically, the wings. Having access to the small modular wing set is very important for the early plane game, especially when mods like APP, KAX, or SXT are installed.

I agree with your intentions regarding the engines and rocket fuel tanks as stated above. Clustering smaller engines with slightly lower TWR, is a great early-tier way to use the larger-diameter fuel tanks. I didn't get very far into the rocket side of the tech tree today, so I don't know if it would become frustrating for gameplay later on.

Both USI Sounding Rockets and Taerobee are fantastic mods for tier zero sounding rockets, and I can most likely put configs for them together tomorrow, depending on how long it takes to finalize the UBM extended release tomorrow.

I would recommend you download and integrate @Snark's Missing History mod, as it is very good at filling out the empty spaces in the Making History parts list. If you're not a Making History guy, I can probably take care of those parts tomorrow as well.

[Pand5461]

6 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

@Pand5461, here's my rationale for placing parts.

I agree on that in general. The rationale I had in mind is a bit different. From the gameplay prospective, a stack of small tanks is 100% equivalent to a large tank, which is not the case in real life. Therefore, giving only the FL-T100 in Stock Tier 2 has the sole reason of making a decent rocket take most of the 30 part limitation of Level 1 editors. Historically, there hardly was a case when an engine has been developed and the tanks of "appropriate size" for it were technologically unavailable. Moreover, at later stages in the game, giving only the largest tank of a new size may be a bigger limitation to the gameplay, as only a few engines would be available to take off with it, fine-grained control of tank volume is impossible (one can change fuel levels, but that worsens wet/dry mass ratio).

We seem to agree on a bigger problem, however, that some stock nodes have no use on their own. I found that deeply irritating that in order to make a 2.5m or 3.75m stage, one needs to unlock half of the corresponding tech tier: engines in one node, tanks in another, decoupler or an adapter in a third one. I'd be extremely grateful to see that fixed.

2 hours ago, theonegalen said:

I agree with your intentions regarding the engines and rocket fuel tanks as stated above. Clustering smaller engines with slightly lower TWR, is a great early-tier way to use the larger-diameter fuel tanks. I didn't get very far into the rocket side of the tech tree today, so I don't know if it would become frustrating for gameplay later on.

I tried that, don't think it's frustrating, if the cubic strut or thrust plates are available. I'd like that style to get more promotion, too.

Starting with 0.625m engines is nice, too. IIRC, clustered Sparks give enough umph to lift an orbital rocket with a Mk1 capsule.

[SpinkAkron]

@theonegalen, I've had a config for Missing History in the mod support folder for quite awhile. It's only got the Pod moved so far.  If you notice anything else out of place please let me know.  I really appreciate your offer to do the airplanes mods.  I'll also defer to you on the stock aircraft parts placement, so let me know where you think they should be to align with your mod configs.  Does the Subsonic Flight path have any usefulness or should I just prune that?  I'm going to move the split between aerodynamic and aircraft to Aviation rather that at Aerodynamics to the two paths are cleaner.  That would open up a tier 5 aircraft node.  I can change the aviation line on the tech tree to whatever you need.

@Pand5461, thanks! I've been wondering what to do with those engine plates as I haven't used them yet.  If we have smaller engines earlier, those plates would have more of a use.  

I had discarded the idea of .625m parts at start since I figured they'd only get used a couple times and it wasn't worth the effort required to alter the tech.  But since it seems popular, I'll un-discard it.  I don't want to move an upper stage engine to start.  I want an early booster.  What I have in mind is a re-scaled LV-T30, calling it a LV-T5.  Missing History adds a LV-T15 so it would be the start of that line.   Or maybe I should re-scale/re-spec the LV-T15 and make Missing History a required mod.  Ven's Stock revamp has some nice Oscar tanks that I think the license would allow me to include. Ven's has several things I like, but has a pretty heavy hand with all it changes.  I use a culled version.

I'm still tweaking the tech tree.  I'm removing links that don't make sense and realigning things.  There is the option to make all inputs to a node required rather than merely any of them. That makes more sense to me (used selectively) but I think I would get a lot of pushback on that.   I like things that slow down the pace. 

I would like to avoid the changes to science, resources, game mechanics, etc that so many tech trees also include.  That sort of thing is out of scope as far as I'm concerned.   

To reach a release state, I think all the stock parts and tech tree edits need to be finalized.  The configs the airplane mods that set this Tech Tree apart from the others should be done.  I'd like to have the life support and near future configs done, among others.

Lastly, we need a better name.  The only thing I've come up with is Unmanned Before Manned Re-imagined (UBMR).  I'm not sure about tying it this closely to UMB.  It really is it's own thing.

I really appreciate all the input.  It's been very valuable and keeps me engaged. Thanks!

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by SpinkAkron

[SpinkAkron]

More Tech Tree edits/simplifications.  

Removed the CTT Subsonic Flight line - unneeded. 

Split aircraft/aerodynamics line at tier 5.   @theonegalenDoes the aircraft/aerodynamics split even make sense?  Should these two be combined?

Removed Landing line - too specialized.  Moved parts to construction/actuators.

I'm beginning to think I would have been better off adding nodes to the stock tree rather than with removing nodes from CTT.

 

download updated.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by SpinkAkron

[theonegalen]

34 minutes ago, SpinkAkron said:

More Tech Tree edits/simplifications.  

Removed the CTT Subsonic Flight line - unneeded. 

Split aircraft/aerodynamics line at tier 5.   @theonegalenDoes the aircraft/aerodynamics split even make sense?  Should these two be combined?

Removed Landing line - too specialized.  Moved parts to construction/actuators.

I'm beginning to think I would have been better off adding nodes to the stock tree rather than with removing nodes from CTT.

 

 download updated.

  

 

I wouldn't remove anything that has to do with aircraft! When you have mods that add both to the beginning (propellers like Airplane Plus, KAX, and SXT) and the end (nuclear jet propulsion like Near Future Aeronautics and SXT), you need every node you can get!

I'm not sure about the aircraft / aero split. What do you mean, exactly? What kinds of parts would go in one versus the other?

I'm still working on tonight's release of UBME so I won't be able to play around with it just yet.

Edited January 11, 2019 by theonegalen

[Pand5461]

More feedback. How is there a probe core in the starting node and no batteries? I'd vote for the Z-200s, like in UbM, but anything will be okay, really.

Also, I confirm that it is possible to build an orbital vessel using Sparks attached in clusters via cubic struts, and even do that within 30 part limitation in 2.5x rescale. But that requires a fairing for the Sputnik core, FL-T400 tanks and radial decouplers.

It is possible to do an orbital launch with the OKTO probe, small nosecone, Z-200 battery, Hammers, a Flea and an Ant, FL-A10 adapter, Mk1 and Mk0 stack decouplers and Elevons (no. 4). All of that took 20 parts and goes into orbit in 2.5x scaled system. For stock, just one Hammer booster would suffice, I guess.

So it is indeed possible to start with low-level SRBs and Mk0 engines. The game may be still playable with Mk1 LFO engines not before Tier 4, however, lack of gimbal on the Reliant may render if it's unlocked after the Spark (but who knows, it has thrice the thrust of 4-Spark cluster, after all).

[SpinkAkron]

51 minutes ago, Pand5461 said:

More feedback. How is there a probe core in the starting node and no batteries? I'd vote for the Z-200s, like in UbM, but anything will be okay, really.

Also, I confirm that it is possible to build an orbital vessel using Sparks attached in clusters via cubic struts, and even do that within 30 part limitation in 2.5x rescale. But that requires a fairing for the Sputnik core, FL-T400 tanks and radial decouplers.

It is possible to do an orbital launch with the OKTO probe, small nosecone, Z-200 battery, Hammers, a Flea and an Ant, FL-A10 adapter, Mk1 and Mk0 stack decouplers and Elevons (no. 4). All of that took 20 parts and goes into orbit in 2.5x scaled system. For stock, just one Hammer booster would suffice, I guess.

So it is indeed possible to start with low-level SRBs and Mk0 engines. The game may be still playable with Mk1 LFO engines not before Tier 4, however, lack of gimbal on the Reliant may render if it's unlocked after the Spark (but who knows, it has thrice the thrust of 4-Spark cluster, after all).

Cool. Thanks for the test.  The battery on the probe is sufficient to fly it but not sufficient to transmit, even if the antenna could handle the stress.   That's intentional .  It exposes a fail point that is the lead-in to Engineering 100 giving the Z-100 battery and more durable antenna.  Kind like telling little stories.   Expose a weakness and offer the solution.  My thought is it should take about tier 3 to get to orbit.  How many missions that takes is determined by the science slider.   A slower pace gives me more satisfaction so I play with it set < 50%.  Other folks like to rush thru so they can play with it set higher.

20 hours ago, theonegalen said:

I wouldn't remove anything that has to do with aircraft! When you have mods that add both to the beginning (propellers like Airplane Plus, KAX, and SXT) and the end (nuclear jet propulsion like Near Future Aeronautics and SXT), you need every node you can get!

I'm not sure about the aircraft / aero split. What do you mean, exactly? What kinds of parts would go in one versus the other?

I'm still working on tonight's release of UBME so I won't be able to play around with it just yet.

The split is where the aviation line splits off from the aerodynamics line.  Stock has that happen on the aerodynamics node.  I moved it back one tier to aviation . Makes more sense to me.  I'll quit messing with aviation lines until you have time to determine which nodes you'd like.    IMO, this tree is a bit of a mess and it's hard for me to refrain from 'fixing' it. 

[theonegalen]

4 hours ago, SpinkAkron said:

The split is where the aviation line splits off from the aerodynamics line.  Stock has that happen on the aerodynamics node.  I moved it back one tier to aviation . Makes more sense to me.  I'll quit messing with aviation lines until you have time to determine which nodes you'd like.    IMO, this tree is a bit of a mess and it's hard for me to refrain from 'fixing' it. 

Thanks! I'll be able to mess around with it once I get the next version of UBM Extended out. The one I released last night was for everything up to, but not including KSP 1.6.1 and the new Dmagic / Universal Storage 2 parts.

 

[Pand5461]

This time actually played a bit with this tech tree.

It's a bit harder to get through the first tiers, but after you get the Terrier in tier 4 and the Poodle in tier 5 - it's pretty much end game.

My suggestion is to stretch the progress in engines as that is the main limiting factor in game. Historically, one may say that it was always a problem to design engines to send capsules to space. The tech tree seems to have, by the moment the first crew capsule unlocks, engines capable enough to use that capsule for a Duna mission.

[SpinkAkron]

3 hours ago, Pand5461 said:

My suggestion is to stretch the progress in engines as that is the main limiting factor in game. Historically, one may say that it was always a problem to design engines to send capsules to space. The tech tree seems to have, by the moment the first crew capsule unlocks, engines capable enough to use that capsule for a Duna mission.

@Pand5461, now that is a really good idea.  I'll work today on getting the basics of the .625m start set up.  I don't have a much experience playing past tier 5 or so.  If you have any thoughts on how the subsequent engines should be positioned, I'd love to hear them.

Initial thoughts:

tier 1-  LV-T5  - .625m w/o gimble (rescaled LV-T30).  Also one of the .625m srbs from Vens .

tier 2 - LV-T10 - .625m w/ gimble (Rescaled LV-T45).  LV-T5/LV-T10 would have the same relationship and relative power as LV-T30/LV-T45

tier 3 - LV-T15 from Missing History, would be the first 1.25m engine.  RT-5 SRB would move from start to here.

We can also look at tweaking tech costs of the various tiers to even out pacing, if needed. 

[Pand5461]

I'm thinking of more radical changes.

Tier 1 - Flea only

Tier 2 - Adding Hammer and Ant; radial decoupler and Mk1 -> Mk0 adapter in the Fabrication node. It makes it possible to build two-stage spin-stabilized sounding rockets.

Tier 3 - OKTO core and small nosecone in the Stability node (reaction wheels one tier later). With some creativity, that could then be the only T3 node to unlock to reach orbit. Spark in the General Rocketry node (probably with gimbal range set to 0 at that point to unlock later via the part upgrade system).

Tier 4 - Thumper booster and LV-T30.

A bit confused for the further tech, but tweaking tech costs sounds like a great idea.

The thing I have in mind is to not unlock efficient engines and Mk2 engines before the R&D upgrade. So, maybe the Heavy rocketry node can cost 110 science to unlock, and as for efficient engines - I don't know, there aren't suitable subtrees. Construction maybe, with names like "Advanced metalworks" and such?