Colony Mechanics Details

[Teek]

Just a few hours ago, a new PC Gamer article went up discussing Colony mechanics (and Kerbal reproduction, but only in that it is something too horrible to disclose, apparently.)  https://www.pcgamer.com/kerbal-space-program-2-dev-reveals-how-baby-kerbals-are-made/

JUICY Details:

• Colonies will start out with set deployable modules that you will land on a planet's surface.
• Once deployed, it sounds like you can then use the Building Assembly Editor (or BAE for short... nice) to add pieces to your colony.  At first, you can only use parts that you have brought with you from Offworld, but eventually you will be able to unlock the ability to directly manufacture parts from available resources.
• Unlocking these parts seems to originate from a progression system tied to colony size.  Colony size (and the aforementiond Kerbal multiplication) will not be a product of time, but rather the result of you achieving specific goals, which will then cause a... uh... "celebration" that will lead to a significant baby boom in your colony.  No comment. 
• Eventually, you will unlock buildings to create vehicles that can then be built and launched at that colony!  Obviously this will grant you the benefits of building in low (or null) gravity, and which will apparently be a requirement for unlocking interstellar progression.

A few other notes or observations on my part:

• They've talked primarily about terrestrial colonies, but I'm assuming space colonies will follow some similar methods.  In both cases, I think we will probably still be able to launch and dock colonies/space stations as we used to, but this sounds like it will be a great alternative with real substance in late game mechanics
• Star Theory has previously said that buildings will be subject to physics after they are constructed, but not necessarily in the editor, so expect space kraken shenanigans!  Except not in space... we may need a new, land-based mythological creature to blame our colony woes on.
• For now, I'm taking the Cinematic trailer at its word when it comes to physical models, if not the actual visual effects, in representing the main game.  Given that population is so emphasized, expect lots of geo-domes and habs, and maybe many other specialized buildings (not just ol' spaceship parts).  Maybe these will automatically generate when your population increases?  Or will we need to be building habs to accommodate?  I have a... not great reputation for creating sustainable housing in Frostpunk, I'm a bit worried here.
• Interestingly, how these things unlock seems a bit ambiguous.  There's been no mention of science so far, and it's unclear if colony progression will unlock entirely new parts, or simply make parts you already have usable for the colony.  It also sounds like additional functions within the colony will be unlockable through population growth: obviously spaceship construction is one, but airstrips and land vehicular construction are also likely.  I imagine other functions could be resource management, communications and control, and research.  
• Population also makes me think about how this will impact astronaut recruitment.  Will astronauts be able to inhabit colonies?  Will colonies each have their own pool of astronauts, or will it be one large collective pool?  Will astronauts need to be transported between colonies before they can be assigned to ships launching from each world?  Lots to consider, verrry verrry interesting.

[cubinator]

52 minutes ago, Teek said:

Population also makes me think about how this will impact astronaut recruitment.  Will astronauts be able to inhabit colonies?  Will colonies each have their own pool of astronauts, or will it be one large collective pool?  Will astronauts need to be transported between colonies before they can be assigned to ships launching from each world?  Lots to consider, verrry verrry interesting.

My guess is that most people born on a space colony will be almost already qualified to be astronauts just from living their normal lives. So, we will probably have Kerbonauts born on other planets who travel as well.

With the colony mechanics a core part of the game, I hope we get to make orbital colonies as well, like giant city-sized ring stations and city ships to travel to other stars.

[Teek]

37 minutes ago, cubinator said:

My guess is that most people born on a space colony will be almost already qualified to be astronauts just from living their normal lives. So, we will probably have Kerbonauts born on other planets who travel as well.

With the colony mechanics a core part of the game, I hope we get to make orbital colonies as well, like giant city-sized ring stations and city ships to travel to other stars.

Almost certainly, it’s really more of a question of how the game will handle recruitment.  It’s entirely possible that each planet may get its own astronaut center, much like we have on Kerbin.  But I could also see them just lumping everyone into one large pool that is available on any planet.  Personally, I hope we do get discrete populations, and the ability to transfer them between worlds via shuttles.  In my mind, the more reasons the game can provide you to create new vehicles and launch additional spacecraft, the better.  To that end, I also wonder how communication will fit in.  I hope that interplanetary colonies will reward good communication networks, and maybe we’ll even see interstellar-scale com equipment.

The other thing I’ve realized in looking at the large interstellar vessels is that our idea of crew size will likely change significantly.  I’m not the most ambitious KSP builder, so my stations and vessels rarely got above a dozen or so Karbala, but I can see these interstellar vessels easily requiring much more than that.  It’ll be interesting to see how the game represents that, and whether we will just have larger numbers of astronauts, or a distinctions between the normal crew (pilots, engineers, scientists) and other inhabitants.  Maybe we can also get an expansion on crew types, and additional skill requirements for interstellar vessels.

[Spaceception]

I really hope we'll be able to eventually build mini-O'neil cylinders or Standford Torus'

Obviously not nearly the full size craft, but a few scale models that can hold a few, moderate, and decent amount of Kerbals.

[Kerenatus]

With the population feature, i wonder if kerbals would have new traits/abilities/attributes?

In addition, according to the new intervew, ksp2 may well be released before take two's fiscal year. That means before march 31st, and practically speaking, it could be even earlier(february?).

[pschlik]

I gotta wonder, does the whole idea of baby booming result in a finite number of Kerbals? Like, if my Kerbal civilization has achieved everything and been everywhere, does that mean there will be nothing left for Kerbals to be excited about, resulting in nobody reproducing at all? Maybe we'll need another way to motivate the Kerbals... What happens if some mistake results in half a colony dying? Will nobody want to refill that space until I do more exploring? But what if that 1/2 colony were my explorers? Making Kerbals such a finite resource seems like a very bad idea; I would quickly be backed into a situation where a mistake grinds the game to a halt. This is KSP, mistakes shouldn't grind you to a halt...

A more robust solution which isn't as punishing of Kerbal death would be to indirectly affect population growth through milestones. So instead of "yay we made it to Jool! colony population increased by 50" it would be more like "yay we made it to Jool! colony capacity increased by 50." By using events to raise the maximum number of Kerbals attained through reproduction (this soft cap of Kerbals could obviously be exceeded by delivering Kerbals to the colony from elsewhere), Kerbals could still die and be replaced over time (thus, they would not be finite in the long term, but would still be finite in the short term), but to have truly large numbers you'd still need to explore. This both rewards significant achievements without punishing typically Kerbal mistakes.

Also, I fully expect a mod which adds population growth over time regardless of what has/hasn't been done. Or maybe a difficulty option.

Edited August 23, 2019 by pschlik

[Sepax]

Do you think they will implement construction time? If thats the case it would be cool too acually see the kerbals construct the buildings over time, for example like age of empires.

[GoldForest]

29 minutes ago, Sepax said:

Do you think they will implement construction time? If thats the case it would be cool too acually see the kerbals construct the buildings over time, for example like age of empires.

It will be instant based on what we know. Building Assembly Editor is the way we make the colony. So it will most likely be like the VAB, but live. 

[Terwin]

14 hours ago, pschlik said:

I gotta wonder, does the whole idea of baby booming result in a finite number of Kerbals? Like, if my Kerbal civilization has achieved everything and been everywhere, does that mean there will be nothing left for Kerbals to be excited about, resulting in nobody reproducing at all? Maybe we'll need another way to motivate the Kerbals... What happens if some mistake results in half a colony dying? Will nobody want to refill that space until I do more exploring? But what if that 1/2 colony were my explorers? Making Kerbals such a finite resource seems like a very bad idea; I would quickly be backed into a situation where a mistake grinds the game to a halt. This is KSP, mistakes shouldn't grind you to a halt...

I do not see any reason why they would not allow hiring as many kerbals from Kerbin as you can afford, so even if you wiped out half of a colony, you could just send replacements from Kerbin.

[pschlik]

Just now, Terwin said:

I do not see any reason why they would not allow hiring as many kerbals from Kerbin as you can afford, so even if you wiped out half of a colony, you could just send replacements from Kerbin.

Good luck doing that when the colony is in a different star system. Also, if the strategy comes down to "Oh just send Kerbals from Kerbin" then the whole idea of reproduction becomes entirely pointless. There's no reason to bother coding in an entire system of reproduction if the idea is to just use Kerbin anyway.

[Xurkitree]

the issue of linking reproduction with time is due to the fact that we can just time warp and get infinite kerbals.

I'm more happy about the fact that we're getting official kerbal r34 lmao

 

[Yakuzi]

7 hours ago, GoldForest said:

It will be instant based on what we know. Building Assembly Editor is the way we make the colony. So it will most likely be like the VAB, but live. 

What do we know though? I haven't seen any VAB or SPH videos or pics. If you'd purely base it on what we know from KSP2, then rockets will be built over time on the launchpad* (check out 01:13 of the launch trailer):

*Obviously not saying it will, just be careful with the assumptions. I'm sure we'll get more info over the next couple of weeks

Edited August 23, 2019 by Yakuzi

[GoldForest]

12 minutes ago, Yakuzi said:

What do we know though? I haven't seen any VAB or SPH videos or pics. If you'd purely base it on what we know from KSP2, then rockets will be built over time on the launchpad* (check out 01:13 of the launch trailer):

*Obviously not saying it will, just be careful with the assumptions. I'm sure we'll get more info over the next couple of weeks

The slow built up is obviously just for cinematic purposes. Our rockets won't be built on the pad over time. The trailer itself says that's not gameplay footage. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by GoldForest

[Yakuzi]

18 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

obviously

 

27 minutes ago, Yakuzi said:

*Obviously

 

[GoldForest]

1 minute ago, Yakuzi said:

 

 

Ah, sorry, didn't see that part.

[Geschosskopf]

Hmmmm.   Interesting mechanic for population increase, and one I can probably live with.

Ever since I saw the trailer, I've been worried KSP2 was going to be just a life support micromanagement Hell forcing somebody else's idea of Kerbal biology on us all.  This sounds like it could avoid those pitfalls.  I'm now cautiously optimistic.

I myself have used every life support mod (except Kerbalism) many times for many years, so I know whereof I speak.  This experience has convinced me that life support should never, ever become stock.  In fact, I've reached the point where I'm going to stop using it because it either 1) adds nothing to the game except useless system overhead that never comes into play, or 2) becomes your entire game due to the micromanagement required preventing you from getting on with other things once you build one major colony.  There really is no middle ground with it.  It's far better either to ignore the issue entirely or role-play it with your own house rules (limits on mission duration, lugging around dummy modules that you pretend perform the necessary tasks, etc.).

[Cydonian Monk]

21 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Interesting mechanic for population increase, and one I can probably live with.

Hmm....

23 hours ago, Teek said:

cause a... uh... "celebration" that will lead to a significant baby boom

Like lots of ripe kerbals falling off of a cliff or otherwise meeting tragic fates and turning into spores, which then grow into the new generation. 

 

I do like the sounds of the colony building aspect of this. And hope they keep all of the biological stuff more than a bit vague.

[Geschosskopf]

3 hours ago, Cydonian Monk said:

Like lots of ripe kerbals falling off of a cliff or otherwise meeting tragic fates and turning into spores, which then grow into the new generation. 

Of course not   Just as there are serious proposals for humans colonizing the stars by shipping out nothing but frozen embryos (much less volume and mass required than transplanting free-range people), my asexual, fungal Kerbals can go 1 better.  They plan to ship out a few shovelfuls of prime sprouting mulch and numerous small vials of spores of all the ruling, managerial, and worker castes.  No refrigeration required  (except for a few frozen adult workers  to do any required menial labor once the modules have landed).  So as I see it, a Circus colony will have a sufficient stockpile of spores to increase its population as and when needed for a few centuries while always maintaining the proper ratios of castes.  Prime sprouting mulch is an unavoidable by-product of Kerbal metabolism so no shortage of that.  And of course my colonies will thrive because I wouldn't design them to fail.  So eventually, the "natural" (as Kerbals define that) deaths of the colonists will provide the spores for the next generation without having to draw on stored spores.

But that's just me. The poor sods whose Kerbals rely on messy, inefficient sexual reproduction and all its associated angst and divorce courts will have a LOT more hand-waving and censoring to do 

But this all misses 1 important point:  child- or sprouthood. Avoiding this requires either made-from-scratch robots or access to Star Trek transporter backup files and the ability to condense pure energy into the particular atoms in their particular arrangement that will coalesce into a copy of the previously existing being you're replicating.  Otherwise, your additional colonists will have spent some time growing up before being able to join the workforce.  But they only join the workforce on auspicious occasions......  

Hmmm.... That right there is good enough reason to accept all this with open arms.  It requires fortunetellers having foreseen a generation or so ahead to say that THIS day would see the end of Kenobi and of the Rebellion the colony ready to accept a new draft of trade school graduates to increase its productivity.  All kinds of fan fiction can be spun off that hook.  That's a good thing.

 

Quote

I do like the sounds of the colony building aspect of this. And hope they keep all of the biological stuff more than a bit vague.

Amen.  The less said about Kerbal biology (mine or anybody else's), the better.  It does not bear close examination.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Geschosskopf

[Drakenred65]

Don’t worry there’s already porn of it. Just blame the internet.

[shdwlrd]

Now with the colony growth explained a bit, I wonder how it would work with sandbox mode? (If it's included, star theory mentioned that as far as I know.)

[kerbiloid]

On 8/23/2019 at 7:44 AM, pschlik said:

does the whole idea of baby booming result in a finite number of Kerbals? Like, if my Kerbal civilization has achieved everything and been everywhere, does that mean there will be nothing left for Kerbals to be excited about, resulting in nobody reproducing at all?

has a natural solution:

On 8/23/2019 at 7:44 AM, pschlik said:

What happens if some mistake results in half a colony dying?

So, we can expect a new type of mission: "Redirect an asteroid to the Tylo colony to get more empty space for development."

***

On 8/23/2019 at 7:44 AM, pschlik said:

So instead of "yay we made it to Jool! colony population increased by 50" it would be more like "yay we made it to Jool! colony capacity increased by 50."

".. The new habitation norm is 2 m² of floor per Kerbal instead of former 4."

22 hours ago, Sepax said:

Do you think they will implement construction time?

Probably in this case they should implement reproduction time.

15 hours ago, Terwin said:

I do not see any reason why they would not allow hiring as many kerbals from Kerbin as you can afford, so even if you wiped out half of a colony, you could just send replacements from Kerbin.

I imagine the in-game personnel list...

14 hours ago, Xurkitree said:

the issue of linking reproduction with time is due to the fact that we can just time warp and get infinite kerbals.

Did you expect micromanagement?

12 hours ago, Cydonian Monk said:

Like lots of ripe kerbals falling off of a cliff or otherwise meeting tragic fates and turning into spores, which then grow into the new generation. 

We can use infinite Kerbals as a ballast or a counterweight.

Also if install Kethane mod, this means unlimited Kethane production.

P.S.
From a hundred, Kerbals should be a resource.

[magnemoe]

Make me wonder if we can accelerate an colony development by shipping more colonists to it, perhaps from another colony?

I assume the huge space station in Jool orbit they launched the starship from was an orbital colony, one who build the starship.

Now could you make the colony an ship, I assume so but it would be very large and heavy. 

 

[Technical Ben]

15 hours ago, Xurkitree said:

the issue of linking reproduction with time is due to the fact that we can just time warp and get infinite kerbals.

I'm more happy about the fact that we're getting official kerbal r34 lmao

 

But that's the thing. I've no problem with this. Limit the tech to science. Not the size of the colony.

[edit]

PS, yes with all those saying change the "capacity". That changes when science increases. The Kerbals then can become more when time goes by... no need to magically multiple kerbals when science is made.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Technical Ben

[magnemoe]

20 hours ago, GoldForest said:

The slow built up is obviously just for cinematic purposes. Our rockets won't be built on the pad over time. The trailer itself says that's not gameplay footage. 

Pretty sure collonies will be build in an way who is an mix of VAB and build mode in the sims. First you put down an foundation as we saw all items was standing on, then put down various modules like habitats or tanks. 
Then you would put down mining facilities and ISRU until finally getting to the point were you can make parts. Makes me wonder if this unlock in steps, fondations and tanks are pretty easy to make as its just metal, habitats is harder and industrial systems like ISRU is even harder 

We might well get an KIS like system with containers containing parts for colonies. But could you recycle an rocket stage as an fuel tank? 

[Duck McFuddle]

So it seems clear in the KSP2 trailer that colonization on a large scale will be possible - building up not only outposts but even cities over time. What is less clear is how these mechanics will work on such big projects. Will I have to slowly cart out every little piece of my colony to another star system? Because that would not only be tedious but also prevent many players from seriously making a colony without using cheats. Perhaps a portable VAB? But with a feature like that, the game would instantly become way too easy to build things with, making space stations instantaneous. Colonizing has always been an interesting part of the game for me and I really hope it can be done right if it is to factor into KSP2.

How would you like colonization to be done? What would you consider to be "too easy" or "too hard"? How big should colonies get in a game like KSP or KSP2?