Corporate Ethics (An open letter)

[Uburian]

The unfortunate truth is that there is not such a thing as corporate ethics, and that is something that applies to practically every type of business, from the smallest family companies to the largest mega-corporations. 

Corporations are abstract organizational entities created with the sole propose of making a profit from their endeavours, while keeping said endeavours within the limits stablished by law as much as they can. Everything else is secondary to them, even if they pretend that it is not. 

It is the people within a corporation that have empathy, morals and a sense of ethics, just like most other human beings, but like everyone else, the further you are distanced from the immediate impacts of your actions, the less empathy you feel for those your actions affect. This means that, usually, smaller business that only operate on a local area have much higher (relative) empathy and ethical standards than larger corporations, mostly because those who are in charge of them can feel the impact of their decisions (both inside and outside the company) more directly.  

For a large corporation like TTI that operates on a multidisciplinary international range, that has thousands of employees and is directed by a small number of executives and shareholders, empathy and ethics are little more than an afterthought.

–Those who call the shots (Shareholders, CEOS and top executives) are focused on their personal lives and families, not in the millions of persons their actions affect (they can not sense what they feel, after all). For them, ordering a hostile takeover or green-lighting the reduction of a 5% of their workforce means that they will be able to enjoy an extra day or two with their families and/or loved ones in their favorite resort the next summer, or that they will finally will be able to buy the car they have been eyeing for some years. They don't think about the hundreds of lives their actions have ruined, simply because they can not feel them. Does that make them evil?

–And those who work for a large company? They also worry about themselves and their close ones first, and then everyone else. They will do all they can do to keep their job and, if possible, get a better one, even if they have to jump ship to another company in expense of those who they worked with before. Are they evil for doing that, specially in times like this?

–And where does the consumer fall in all of this? Is the consumer unethical for purchasing a product that has been, in some way, made on an unethical manner? Perhaps, but they are no more unethical than any other human trying to live in contemporary society.

This same pattern applies to every human discipline, not just businesses, and the unfortunate truth is that it is a problem that can not be solved by boycotting, nor with policing (another enormous can of worms), but trough culture, art, self education and the encouragement of empathy, critical thinking and responsibility.

Purchase KSP2 when it comes out if you wish, or don't if you want to. That wont change much, but it may give you some peace of mind. Just remember that basically almost every product or service you buy for your daily needs has also been created, to a smaller or larger degree, on an unethical way and for this problem to go away society has to evolve trough cultural and ethical emergence.

[AlamoVampire]

28 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

An NDA normally applies to employees, so I don't expect Nate in the "Hi Everyone" thread to be able to give details. That sort of NDA would not prevent TTI from releasing their own statement approved by management.

There could also be an NDA between the companies of TTI and Star Theory... but if so Star Theory has already violated it- their employees spoke about it for the bloomberg piece. Also if ST is now defunct, it may also be void.

I'm not buying it.

Even if there was an NDA, given that the allegation has been made, they could at least issue a vague denial without giving specifics ("We do not feel that the story reported in Bloomber news accurately portrays the facts, but cannot comment on it further") - but they (so far) haven't.

Its highly suspicious.

Problem is though we all lack the full picture. Simply put: gaps in the knowledge are being filled in with biases, emotions, theories and likely other things I am not thinking of. We cannot and likely will not ever know why TT has not commented. Its possible there is a corporate level type of NDA (no clue how probable, but even a remote unlikely chance in this case warrants its mention in the name of thoroughness) or any number of other reasons for silence. 
 

bottom line: we do not have the full picture. I cannot morally or ethically pass judgement with out a full picture based on fact and not conjecture. Thats my opinion though. 
 

082106052020

[DunaManiac]

Although I am sad because of the treatment of Star Theory, that dosen't mean I will be signing this petition. For one thing, most of the points have nothing to do with ethics and more to do with the quality of the game. If the game turns out like that, I won't be buying that. It all depends and I don't think anyone can put KSP2 in their "buy" or "don't buy" list just yet because it will be releasing in 2021 and we don't know enough about the game. We'll just have to wait and see.

[pandaman]

23 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Problem is though we all lack the full picture. Simply put: gaps in the knowledge are being filled in with biases, emotions, theories and likely other things I am not thinking of. We cannot and likely will not ever know why TT has not commented. Its possible there is a corporate level type of NDA (no clue how probable, but even a remote unlikely chance in this case warrants its mention in the name of thoroughness) or any number of other reasons for silence. 
 

bottom line: we do not have the full picture. I cannot morally or ethically pass judgement with out a full picture based on fact and not conjecture. Thats my opinion though. 
 

082106052020

Exactly,

 

Hypothetical scenario...

A big dog attacks and seriously mauls a Little dog.

The big dog is therefore, understandably, deemed dangerous and violent.

What we didn't see is the little dog provoke and sink it's teeth into the big dog's 'bits' first and refuse to let go.  So the big dog was forced to react in self defence.  

Which is the most violent dog?  The little one for attacking first, the big one for use of 'excessive force' in response, or a bit of both?

Without all the information, incorrect assumptions can be reached far too easily.

 

Two, equally accurate, accounts of an event can differ because the individual observers were looking from a different angle so neither had the benefit of all the information.  Also, sometimes they 'fill in the gaps' and get it wrong, and sometimes they leave gaps simply because they don't know they have a gap.

 

Incomplete information leads to uninformed judgement.

[mattihase]

18 hours ago, Noname115 said:

KSP2 will be ok.

That seems like a good sign.

[Kuskejens]

18 hours ago, Uburian said:

The unfortunate truth is that there is not such a thing as corporate ethics, and that is something that applies to practically every type of business, from the smallest family companies to the largest mega-corporations. 

Corporations are abstract organizational entities created with the sole propose of making a profit from their endeavours, while keeping said endeavours within the limits stablished by law as much as they can. Everything else is secondary to them, even if they pretend that it is not. 

It is the people within a corporation that have empathy, morals and a sense of ethics, just like most other human beings, but like everyone else, the further you are distanced from the immediate impacts of your actions, the less empathy you feel for those your actions affect. This means that, usually, smaller business that only operate on a local area have much higher (relative) empathy and ethical standards than larger corporations, mostly because those who are in charge of them can feel the impact of their decisions (both inside and outside the company) more directly.  

For a large corporation like TTI that operates on a multidisciplinary international range, that has thousands of employees and is directed by a small number of executives and shareholders, empathy and ethics are little more than an afterthought.

I feel this is precisely why consumers do have a role to play in guiding the large corporations in an ethical direction.

I whole heartedly agree that we need to have more focus on developing "(work)culture, art, self education and the encouragement of empathy, critical thinking and responsibility."

Still, if those managing large corporations are so distanced from the implementation of their decisions that they disregard the consequences of them, we'd have no option but to "hit them where it hurts", which is the bottom line. Profit.

So boycuts or policy regulations still have parts to play in society as it exists currently.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Kuskejens
Minor edit

[Guest]

Fully onboard with demands 1 and 6. Won't sign up to 2-5.

[touzenesmy]

Dear everyone,

When I was younger, I was always asked to not get blind when an injustice happens in front of me, I was easy and made sense for the young boy I was.

Then with age, I understood what my parents tried to make me learn, sometimes it's really hard to "open it" when the whole crowd goes silent to when an injustice happens in front of your eyes. When I talked to the people around me who witnessed the injustice with me on "why did we stay silent ? we should have talked"

There was those who agreed that yes, they were wrong but did not have the guts to open their mouth when everybody was silent, and then there was those who find themselves excuses and even try to shift the blame for the ones who say "we should have spoken", using excuses like "yes but you never know", "you don't have all the data", "we don't have all angles of views"

To those ones, I had one question: "Alright, if you don't have all the data, why don't you open your mouth and ask for it ?", and people usually respond by the fact "it's not our personal problem"

Then I understood, some people just don't feel shame in saying "I don't care about other peoples lives as long as I'm not directly impacted", you want the funny part ? they'll cry and ask for help when they're directly impacted.

I'm see now this kind of behavior about T2 and Star Theory crisis, there are the ones who clearly make it loud and clear, the ones who don't have the guts to say it yet but still they do agree that was happened was wrong and there not a single doubt about it.

And there is the ones finding excuses and even try to shift the blame.

To the latest ones, This is a free opinion forum, it's really sicking to see how much you try hard to hide your lack of empathy toward the people who did their best to make our KSP2 dream true, I also know that you're finding excuses because you try to cover up your reputation because you're don't really want to say the truth that you don't care about developers lives, but at least, have the honesty to say it and stop running around with excuses.

This whole discussion could be summarized to those two choices:

- I do care and about ethics and justice, and I won't buy the game.

- I don't care about anyone but myself, if I love the game I will follow my own interest and buy it regardless.

EDIT: Finally, I may be wrong and discover it, but at least I've spoken and only by speaking and saying things that you can learn that you're wrong, not by sticking your head in sand and pretend nothing is happening.

Thank you.

EDIT from OP: Changed "snip" by a better language and phrasing

Edited June 6, 2020 by touzenesmy
Redacted by moderator

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, touzenesmy said:

This whole discussion

This specific discussion is about an open letter that proclaims to be about the problem has only one point that's effectively about the takeover.

5 out of 6 points are unrelated to the takeover and represent Op's personal agenda.

That doesn't mean that I disagree with all of them, for example I'm not going to buy the game if it doesn't support mods but I don't care about preorder bonuses or DRMs.

Points 3-4 have nothing to do with corporate ethics.

19 minutes ago, touzenesmy said:

could be summarized to those two choices:

- I do care and about ethics and justice, and I won't buy the game.

- I don't care about anyone but myself, if I love the game I will follow my own interest and buy it regardless.

But, pretending you didn't post in the wrong thread let's correct those two options:

- I don't know and I decided to fill the voids with wild assumptions.

- I don't know and I have one year and an half to collect more information before making a choice.

- I don't know and I don't care.

 

For now we have one article that relies on an undisclosed number of developers who lost their jobs as it's only source.

[pandaman]

@touzenesmy  I 'liked' your post, because you made your point well.  And i do agree with the main sentiment of standing up against injustice.

However, we do not have all the infornation, yes we can ask for it, but we have no automatic 'right' to be given it.  We have to judge based on the infornation we have.

Did T2 behave in an unethical/underhand manner? Quite possibly, and it certainly comes across that way looking at what little we know.  But we don't know the full circumstances that led to them doing that.  

Driving at well over the speed limit is breaking the law, full stop.  But if the offender has his pregnant wife in the car about to give birth and is rushing her to hospital... Then maybe his actions are understandable, if not fully justifiable.

I am not saying I believe T2 are not at any fault here.  But assuming someone is guilty when you know you don't have all the evidence is also an injustice.

And as @Master39 pointed out above (and I failed to notice) this thread is about the letter calling for boycott.  So we are a bit off topic.

[Curveball Anders]

"Corporate Ethics" is a contradiction in terms.

 

[touzenesmy]

22 minutes ago, pandaman said:

@touzenesmy  I 'liked' your post, because you made your point well.  And i do agree with the main sentiment of standing up against injustice.

However, we do not have all the infornation, yes we can ask for it, but we have no automatic 'right' to be given it.  We have to judge based on the infornation we have.

Did T2 behave in an unethical/underhand manner? Quite possibly, and it certainly comes across that way looking at what little we know.  But we don't know the full circumstances that led to them doing that.  

Driving at well over the speed limit is breaking the law, full stop.  But if the offender has his pregnant wife in the car about to give birth and is rushing her to hospital... Then maybe his actions are understandable, if not fully justifiable.

I am not saying I believe T2 are not at any fault here.  But assuming someone is guilty when you know you don't have all the evidence is also an injustice.

And as @Master39 pointed out above (and I failed to notice) this thread is about the letter calling for boycott.  So we are a bit off topic.

Thank you about that remark, again, and as you say " We have to judge based on the infornation we have."

As a police officer will not "assume" you have a pregnant wife in the car when he'll arrest you because of the speed limit, he'll judge with the information he have, and if you don't give additional data, you'll be faced with the charges based on the data that is available.

That's why I made my whole post above, you see an injustice, call it out and take action, until proven otherwise.

EDIT: Thank you very much for the feedback to anyone who took time to read and support/critic my point of view

Edited June 6, 2020 by touzenesmy

[pandaman]

43 minutes ago, touzenesmy said:

That's why I made my whole post above, you see an injustice, call it out and take action, until proven otherwise.

The problem is what "action" to take?  Any action in direct response, before the full story is known, could be premature and inappropriate.

Point it out, raise awareness, open the debate, try to gather more information... Certainly.

But what if that 'action' is sharpening pitchforks, lighting torches and outright attacking the 'perceived' perpetrator?

That, IMO is wrong, and can ultimately be worse for both victims and perpetrators, irrespective of which party is which, and the wider community as a whole.

[Selective Genius]

This whole debacle reminds me of a story, where a Demon asks a King a question in exchange of his life: "Who is Virtuous? A deer calmly grazing grass, not hurting anyone, but minding it's own business, or a tiger ripping apart deer families by killing them for food, leaving nothing but bones behind?"

The King replied, "It is the Tiger. The Tiger only kills to fill it's belly, it is it's nature. True, if it wanted, it could indiscriminately kill small herbivores and be a monster, but it chooses not to be. That's Virtue The deer on the other hand, is simply harmless. It's not inflicting harm to anyone, because it's incapable to do so, not because it doesn't want to."

The same applies to this situation. We can sign all we want, no problem. But in the end, we won't be virtuous, we will just be harmless. Of course we will get the license to pat ourself on our back for a while, but that's all the change we can manage. TTI will still sell a bazillion copies of KSP2(if it's good), it will still gain a massive profit, regardless of the opinions of a few hundred people. And all we will be left with, would be the absence of a good game on our PC, and who knows, maybe a large portion of us petitioners will be swayed by the wonderful 'Let's play' videos, and end up buying KSP2 anyway

YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO BE VIRTUOUS WHEN YOU ARE POWERLESS.

Just write this down and follow it, and life will not smack you in the face too hard when you walk into the bad world out there.

[ShakeNBake]

From a game-theory perspective on how best to navigate the world, this ^^ is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, my weird brain cannot fully separate logic and emotion. The logical part of me knows that all I am doing is restricting myself while not doing anything that will affect the actual parties involved. However, the emotional part of me won’t shut up about how supporting any system that causes suffering is just me indirectly causing that suffering. As an American taxpayer, I already have about 30 million things to hate myself for. Adding another one to the pile will hurt more than not having a fun game. 

Is any of this logical or rational? Absolutely not. I’ve been fully aware of that for close to 2 decades. But even with that awareness, I have never been able to change.

I’m getting close to convincing myself that using the KSP1 engine to play RSS is enough degrees of separation for me to not have to feel guilty about it. Hopefully I will resume work on The Zeus Program shortly. But until then, I still have plenty to clean in my garage.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, touzenesmy said:

there are the ones who clearly make it loud and clear,

Loud - yes, absolutely. Clear - not in the least.

5 hours ago, touzenesmy said:

This whole discussion could be summarized to those two choices:

Before judging, google "axe flowers girl man" for the illustration.

[boolybooly]

I dont feel I know enough about the circumstances of the poaching to decide it was unacceptable.

The facts I think I know (correct me if I am wrong) suggest Star Theory ran out of money and failed to live up to their promises, which in any other situation would be seen as breach of contract. In theory contracts exist to provide justice to the participants and Star Theory breaching is unfair on Private Division who invested an unknown large amount of money in the game which Star Theory took saying they would make the game and then came back saying they ran out of money and hadn't made it.

They discussed royalties and a buy out, apparently looking for ways to fund Star Theory some more to complete the job. The talks broke down and reading between the lines I am of the opinion this was because Star Theory wanted more than Private Division were offering. As for ethics, if the Star Theory owners had given top priority to their employees' wellbeing and the game and their moral obligation to do their best for both and fulfill the contract as best they could, they would have sold the studio for a dollar and hoped for some consultation/admin work during the handover .

IMHO it sounds like Berry and Mavor wanted more but were they justified? Star Theory did not invent KSP, it was dropped in their lap, though they did find KSP enthusiasts to do the work, who are the bone of contention.  In the employment business finding the right people is worth money commensurate with the task of finding them and their salaries. For example head hunting and also temping agencies have stringent contracts which prevent temps being poached without a payout to the agency. So for this reason common sense justice would allow that Private Division did owe Berry and Mavor something for the studio because it was full of the right people and that didnt happen by chance but I doubt it balances the sums involved in hiring the studio in the first place.

It sounds like Private Division had decided they would not reward failure and TBH I can see their point because there are examples of developers who waste huge amounts of money with little to show for it like Chris Roberts and Star Citizen. The point being it is too easy, even for experienced developers, to waste money in game development.

TTI are a big company with a lot of affiliated developers via Private Division. If "indy" devs breaking contracts start to get more money not less, then you can imagine what Private Division imagine will happen, more developers will ask for more money beyond their contract terms. This suggests that the decision by Private Division to axe Star Theory was probably not just about the one game but about Private Division's entire portfolio and keeping fiscal discipline. IMHO that is understandable in the uncertain circumstances of the pandemic related recession and one wonders whether panic was a factor in these stressful times. While games production is likely to make more money not less during lockdown the question is what happens next in the wider economy. Its not the time for Private Division to be blowing wads of money on profligate producers. So it looks like they need to have rules and I can understand why they said no.

If you say its not OK to rehire the KSP2 devs, it is effectively saying its OK for Star theory owners to gamble their employees job security to get a bigger slice of pie and use the game they were trusted with as leverage to do that, again using their employees as leverage because they are the best people to do the job right now. At this point I dont know which side, if any, was taking it too far, it depends on the sums involved and the conditions attached in the negotiations. 

Given they had just been in talks about how Star Theory was running on fumes Private Division could predict the subsequent dissolution of Star Theory reliably. It may seem like indecent haste but it made sense for the sake of rescuing KSP2 ASAP to contact the key people who were enthusiastic for KSP2 to let them know they could keep working on it before they found jobs somewhere else.

Neither side come out of this looking good. It is our misfortune that the studio Private Division hired to make the game did not get their ducks in a row but its not reasonable to blame and stigmatise Private Division when it was Star Theory's mistake. 

Ethical decision making is full of fine lines. For example IMHO it was ethical to remove a statue of a slave trader during the BLM protests in Bristol UK. Its illegal, but IMHO it is ethical, the perps will have to face the law but they knew that when they did it and they are heroes in my eyes because they did not hurt anyone else or do it to cause criminal damage spitefully or loot from retail businesses or private premises greedily, they did it to right a wrong. Likewise I dont see offering the KSP2 devs jobs as entirely wrong, it was motivated by a desire to get the game back in production and mitigate a disciplinary necessity in deciding against funding Star Theory some more. It was not an act of theft against Star Theory, it was a necessity because Star Theory messed up and Private Division were trying to prevent Star Theory leeching money from Private Division to cover their own mistake. 

Not knowing the  details, in my book the only thing Private Division are guilty of is being decisive and quick off the mark and they are paying a price for it on the PR front because people are transferring past grievances against Electronic Arts on to them without justification. Its a murky business but while I admit I dont know the whole story and vital details, on the whole I am glad they did it and if the key KSP2 devs are backing Private Division, I trust their judgement and wish them luck.

Edited June 14, 2020 by boolybooly

[TackleMcClean]

Currently I plan to buy the game.

From what we've seen so far I would definitely not boycott the game, especially out of respect for the developers.

All these worry-posts without solid ground only serve to derail the developers, and I sincerely hope they find the peace and quiet they need to focus on their jobs.

 

[harrisjosh2711]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:49 AM, Selective Genius said:

 

YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO BE VIRTUOUS WHEN YOU ARE POWERLESS.

Just write this down and follow it, and life will not smack you in the face too hard when you walk into the bad world out there.

Hence, why you will forever be powerless. Fortunately for the world, many people are starting to realize they arent "powerless". I would like to point out the creative director of the game felt pressured into engaging the community 1 day after this post was made. 

This reminds me of the "my vote doesnt count" argument. When 1 million say that, guess what? YOUR VOTE COUNTS. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by harrisjosh2711

[Selective Genius]

2 minutes ago, harrisjosh2711 said:

Hence, why you will forever be powerless. Fortunately for the world, many people are starting to realize they arent "powerless". I would like to point out the creative director of the game felt pressured into engaging the community 1 day after this post was made. 

This reminds me of the "my  doesnt count" argument. When 1 million say that, guess what? YOUR VOTE COUNTS. 

Excuse me are we both living in the same plane of existence? Have you heard anything from Take2, the chief 'antagonist' in this scenario? You have not. They sent Nate Simpson, because he is a known KSP lover, a tragic 'hero' and will make for a good misdirection of the mob's anger, maybe even a scapegoat. Did it work? Absolutely. Notice how the tempers calmed down once Nate made his address. At the moment, most if not all people will still buy KSP2 if it's a good game.

Please pick up your placards, and protest the injustice for as long as you want. In one way or the other, until you rise to the top, with the ability to inflict the same injustice to those below you, you can not make a difference even with a mob. What you decide to do with the power you obtained is up to you. That or if you gain the backing of influential people.

Please look at history and count how many peaceful protests and movements have been completely successful solely on the basis of the mob's motivation. All of the successful ones have had major backers.

Also, there are 1 million people invested in KSP2's journey at the moment and hate the present scenario? I doubt it.

You and I ARE and WILL always be powerless, atleast in the gaming sector. We can of course, keep deluding ourselves and believe that we have some power over a multi billion dollar corporation which probably has more lawyers than people on this forum deciding to boycott and protest it.

[Jacke]

15 hours ago, boolybooly said:

I dont feel I know enough about the circumstances of the poaching to decide it was unacceptable.

[ Very long argument on what could have happened between Star Theory and Private Division. ]

I think you're still assuming things we're not sure of.  We don't know what Star Theory was going to be able to deliver for the original deadline and whether that would satisfy the contract or the community.  Because we only have the minimal haziest idea of what was in the contract.  In addition, we don't know if either or both parties were already talking about changing not just the schedule but also the specification, as well as eventually talking about Private Division buying Star Theory.

Others with more knowledge of the current gaming industry (like @K^2) said by November KSP 2 should have been well into final polish for release.  I don't know if all information releases prior to that were in line with this.  But I get the feeling that it wasn't.  And then we have to admit we don't have a lot of knowledge about all states of KSP 2 from its inception to now.  We are really in the dark here.

And again those industry insiders say such blatant mass team poaching is not yet common in the industry and will still have a negative impact on Private Division.  And we have to consider that those at PD knew this, yet still cancelled the contract (using a clause that must have been in the contract) and issued the mass poach broadcast.  And then thought it better to say *nothing* about it all until some lightweight news release about the new studio in February.

We are running out of steam to comment about this.  I've really said nothing new above, just saying again what I and others have said in the past 12 days.  Nate was sent out with an olive branch that just consisted of him saying he will still deliver the same KSP 2 as was promised.  But nothing about the past.  Nor a reassurance from PD that KSP 2 will be as promised.  Maybe they're saving the "we regret" message for an unpleasant future turn, but that's complete speculation.

We're not likely to learn more.  We will have to wait for KSP 2 to come out.

Others have commented on power.  A bit right and a bit wrong in most comments.

I don't like what was done.  Private Division makes itself look guilty by not putting out a proper message before it leaked.

I may still buy KSP 2.  As others have mentioned, it's hard to avoid these unpleasant compromises and live in this society.

But to me, TTI/PD can still fall.  I will never deal with NCsoft because they killed off City of Heroes.  EA is almost in that class.  TTI isn't that far back either.

[harrisjosh2711]

4 hours ago, Selective Genius said:

Excuse me are we both living in the same plane of existence? Have you heard anything from Take2, the chief 'antagonist' in this scenario? You have not. They sent Nate Simpson, because he is a known KSP lover, a tragic 'hero' and will make for a good misdirection of the mob's anger, maybe even a scapegoat. Did it work? Absolutely. Notice how the tempers calmed down once Nate made his address. At the moment, most if not all people will still buy KSP2 if it's a good game.

Please pick up your placards, and protest the injustice for as long as you want. In one way or the other, until you rise to the top, with the ability to inflict the same injustice to those below you, you can not make a difference even with a mob. What you decide to do with the power you obtained is up to you. That or if you gain the backing of influential people.

Please look at history and count how many peaceful protests and movements have been completely successful solely on the basis of the mob's motivation. All of the successful ones have had major backers.

Also, there are 1 million people invested in KSP2's journey at the moment and hate the present scenario? I doubt it.

You and I ARE and WILL always be powerless, atleast in the gaming sector. We can of course, keep deluding ourselves and believe that we have some power over a multi billion dollar corporation which probably has more lawyers than people on this forum deciding to boycott and protest it.

We could argue back and forth on the topic. Just tell me exactly what "power" take two has? Fact is, they cant exist without YOU, the consumer. There's just too many people like you. You guys are too complacent with your daily cheesebuger and television (modern amenities) to seek real change. Im in no way advocating a boycott of ksp2. Just this attitude "my vote doesnt count" or "i have no power" is a lie you tell yourself to sleep better at night. Further, It hurts those out there grinding for real change, not just you. 

As a wise man once said- "You gotta play to win"

Edited June 15, 2020 by harrisjosh2711

[KerikBalm]

On 6/6/2020 at 3:49 PM, Selective Genius said:

This whole debacle reminds me of a story, where a Demon asks a King a question in exchange of his life: "Who is Virtuous? A deer calmly grazing grass, not hurting anyone, but minding it's own business, or a tiger ripping apart deer families by killing them for food, leaving nothing but bones behind?"

The King replied, "It is the Tiger. The Tiger only kills to fill it's belly, it is it's nature. True, if it wanted, it could indiscriminately kill small herbivores and be a monster, but it chooses not to be. That's Virtue The deer on the other hand, is simply harmless. It's not inflicting harm to anyone, because it's incapable to do so, not because it doesn't want to."

The same applies to this situation. We can sign all we want, no problem. But in the end, we won't be virtuous, we will just be harmless. Of course we will get the license to pat ourself on our back for a while, but that's all the change we can manage. TTI will still sell a bazillion copies of KSP2(if it's good), it will still gain a massive profit, regardless of the opinions of a few hundred people. And all we will be left with, would be the absence of a good game on our PC, and who knows, maybe a large portion of us petitioners will be swayed by the wonderful 'Let's play' videos, and end up buying KSP2 anyway

YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO BE VIRTUOUS WHEN YOU ARE POWERLESS.

Just write this down and follow it, and life will not smack you in the face too hard when you walk into the bad world out there.

This analogy and reasoning, IMO, are terrible.

First, I would say neither are virtuous. They both just need to do what they need to do. Second, you are not powerless. Your power is miniscule, more like a worker bee. Alone, a nuisance, but in a swarm, powerful.

Just look at the protests in the US against the police. More police reform has already happened due to them, htan in the last decades without them. Police that would not have been charged with crimes are now going to trial, there is a collective power. Until robots replace us, the power lies in the collective behaviour of the people.

Your analogy, correctly interpreted and ignoring the flaws that I see in what constitutes "virtue" would be: "YOU CAN NOT BE VIRTUOUS IF YOU ARE POWERLESS"

Your modified version leads to, IMO, what is wrong with the world today.

"I'm powerless to stop climate change, I might as well drive an SUV instead of a hybrid, or taking a bike; and there's no point in conserving energy"

"I'm powerless to stop overpopulation, I might as well have 3 or more kids"

"I'm powerless to stop polution, I might as well use a bunch of plastic and not bother to recycle things"

etc....

You may be a drop of water in the ocean, but what is the ocean if not a collection of such drops?

 

On the other hand, the ethics of video game developers is an issue of very little importance when compared to climate change, overpopulation, pollution, etc... so I can forgive apathy in this particular case.

 

[harrisjosh2711]

6 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

You may be a drop of water in the ocean, but what is the ocean if not a collection of such drops?

Very well said! Im stealing this.

[Selective Genius]

18 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

You may be a drop of water in the ocean, but what is the ocean if not a collection of such drops?

Then, what do you suppose is a practical, tangible solution to the present problem regarding KSP2?

We are drops of water, but in these scenario, we do not belong in the ocean. We are limited to a puddle, at most.

The protests that you mentioned (lets not get too political about this) had powerful supporters and political partners  who pushed the agenda forwards. What kind of backer do we have? Do we have a US lawmaker who sympathizes with our cause? If we do, then that's great. But we don't.

My point is that 'Mob mentality' will not work without a backing of some kind. And most of those people will not back us if they dont see a profit for themselves. That, or if they have some form of conscience.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Selective Genius