Why Laythe. Why does it have liquid water?

[Dr. Kerbal]

I have been wondering how scientifically and realistically Laythe would have liquid water. I though it might be because of the gravinitational pull of the other moons and Jool making the water a liquid. But now I reconsider this, it is possible?

[NFUN]

nope

[razark]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Kerbal said:

I reconsider this, it is possible?

Go compute the density of Kerbin, and compare to known elements.

Then, compare Kerbol to any known star.

 

Once you have done this, revisit your question.

Spoiler

It's a game.  Don't get too wrapped up in the questions of "Is <X> possible?"

 

[magnemoe]

This, Laythe would be too cold I assume, never thought much about temperatures in KSP outside overheating but pretty sure its too far from the sun. 
Now the devs wanted another planet with oxygen for planes and Laythe made most sense. 

The Jool system would be unstable in real world too as the moons are to close together.  Think Val and Bop would be kicked out by Tylo. 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Perhaps look at some of the new stuff coming out about Charon? 

 

Our system may have a lot more water than expected.  So possibilities for Laythe expanding? 

[Nuke]

you think you would see more seismic activity. 

[Flying dutchman]

Perhaps laythe is Just a natural nuclear reactor and the water acts as coolant.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Flying dutchman

[Guest]

Not without a lot of hand-waving. Like, maybe it's an icy moon that recently – and I mean RECENTLY – suffered a major impact event that melted its oceans, and they haven't had time to freeze yet?

There's a lot of similar stuff that doesn't really make sense when you look at it too closely. The Jolian moons aren't in stable orbits, Tylo ought to have an atmosphere, whereas Laythe's shouldn't be breathable and it shouldn't have liquid water. It could more plausibly be a Titan analogue with methane oceans and a nitrogen atmosphere, but there's just no way it could be the like it is, where it is. (Eve doesn't make much sense either for that matter...)

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

Also Jool could provide some sort of tidal heating...?

[YNM]

Liquid surface water ? Extremely unlikely.

Liquid water mantle, under a crust of ice ? Practically all the major gas giant moons.

5 hours ago, magnemoe said:

The Jool system would be unstable in real world too as the moons are to close together.  Think Val and Bop would be kicked out by Tylo. 

What the Principia mod devs found out I think, lots of the stock configuration aren't stable.

[lemon cup]

28 minutes ago, JIMMY_the_DOG said:

Also Jool could provide some sort of tidal heating...?

This. The concept of Laythe is based around tidal heating as is evidenced on Jovian moons like Io and Europa. The idea  is that the sun is not the primary source of heating on a body like this, but instead gravitational energy is converted into thermal energy and heats the planet from the inside-out.

As far as Laythe goes, explaining the presence of liquid water on the surface would be challenging (a.k.a. Sci-fi) using the concept of tidal heating. But that did not stop the KSP devs from taking the idea and running with it, and for that we thank them 

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

3 minutes ago, lemon cup said:

The concept of Laythe is based around tidal heating as is evidenced on Jovian moons like Io and Europa.

It's even in Universe sandbox 

But really that could be what's heating laythe

[YNM]

7 minutes ago, lemon cup said:

The idea  is that the sun is not the primary source of heating on a body like this, but instead gravitational energy is converted into thermal energy and heats the planet from the inside-out.

It only happens within the solid portion of the body however. Hence the most likely result is a liquid water mantle (ice-rock contact surface, as well as within the ice crust) rather than standing water on the surface (as well as the fact that ice is less dense than liquid water). If the body is entirely made out of a fluid no tidal heating effect would occur.

Edited February 12, 2021 by YNM

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

54 minutes ago, YNM said:

If the body is entirely made out of a fluid no tidal heating effect would occur.

Yes, Laythe has islands... its not just a fat ball of water with some iron in the middle..

[Dr. Kerbal]

1 hour ago, JIMMY_the_DOG said:

It's even in Universe sandbox 

But really that could be what's heating laythe

Laythe’ score?

[sevenperforce]

1 hour ago, lemon cup said:

This. The concept of Laythe is based around tidal heating as is evidenced on Jovian moons like Io and Europa. The idea  is that the sun is not the primary source of heating on a body like this, but instead gravitational energy is converted into thermal energy and heats the planet from the inside-out.

As far as Laythe goes, explaining the presence of liquid water on the surface would be challenging (a.k.a. Sci-fi) using the concept of tidal heating. But that did not stop the KSP devs from taking the idea and running with it, and for that we thank them 

Significant tidal heating can certainly keep the oceans liquid IF there's an atmospheric insulator, which Laythe has. Europa would have liquid surface oceans if it was heavy enough to retain an atmosphere, but its escape velocity is around 2 km/s. Laythe's escape velocity is 2.8 km/s which is closer to that of Titan. The surface temperature of Laythe displayed in the game is actually a little too warm, but if the heating is primarily tidal, then perhaps it has an inverted atmospheric temperature gradient. The upper atmosphere should be around 100 K to act as a "blanket" and keep the lower atmosphere in place. 

On the other hand, getting oxygen into that atmosphere doesn't make any sense. As much as you and I love the delicious, delicious taste of oxygen, it's not particularly normal to have it floating around randomly; it's basically a corrosive vapor that eats anything it touches. You can get a little oxygen in your atmosphere by solar ionization of water vapor, but not that much. You really need something a bit more aggressive....

[YNM]

1 hour ago, JIMMY_the_DOG said:

Yes, Laythe has islands... its not just a fat ball of water with some iron in the middle..

The problem would be that this heat would need to travel very far to the surface. I honestly question that if such massive tidal heating could be generated that keeps the temperature above the freezing point of water then very likely 1) the temperature beneath it would be much higher and 2) most likely you'd have to stay very close to the roche limit with the body very close to breaking up.

If someone is interested to run in the numbers I'd be happy to see it, maybe assume at least Earth-like density for the satellite's solid rock body and the mass of the parent planet up to 13 jupiter masses (the largest to be accepted as a planet).

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

I'm doing the numbers, hold on

Hey... was looking through the KSP wiki when I came across this

"The air however does have a strange smell about it. It is therefore possible that there are also high concentrations of salt in the air, as well as on the surface, assuming that the salt is sodium chloride."

So I wonder if the high salt content helps the oceans not freeze?

I'm still doing the roche limit math, and my est. roche limit if jool is 15000000m.

thoughts?

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

Turns out laythe is well outside the estimated, and yes it is estimated so it is not true/perfect.

est. roche limit: 15 000 000m

orbit:  27 184 000 m (unrealisticly somehow a perfect circle, huh)

so it could be to far for substantial tidal heating, but it could still help, but now I think that the high salt content is what's keeping the water liquid.

[cubinator]

2 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

On the other hand, getting oxygen into that atmosphere doesn't make any sense. As much as you and I love the delicious, delicious taste of oxygen, it's not particularly normal to have it floating around randomly; it's basically a corrosive vapor that eats anything it touches. You can get a little oxygen in your atmosphere by solar ionization of water vapor, but not that much. You really need something a bit more aggressive....

Well that just means that Laythe is probably alive. Perhaps it's where those crashed saucers came from?

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

6 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Perhaps it's where those crashed saucers came from?

(gasp) like the one on kerbin?

[mikegarrison]

7 hours ago, Brikoleur said:

Not without a lot of hand-waving. Like, maybe it's an icy moon that recently – and I mean RECENTLY – suffered a major impact event that melted its oceans, and they haven't had time to freeze yet?

There's a lot of similar stuff that doesn't really make sense when you look at it too closely. The Jolian moons aren't in stable orbits, Tylo ought to have an atmosphere, whereas Laythe's shouldn't be breathable and it shouldn't have liquid water. It could more plausibly be a Titan analogue with methane oceans and a nitrogen atmosphere, but there's just no way it could be the like it is, where it is. (Eve doesn't make much sense either for that matter...)

I remember back when Laythe's atmosphere was explicitly oxygenated but toxic. I believe this was probably an in-game explanation for why kerbals were unable to take their helmets off when they were on Laythe. Later this idea seems to have been dropped, probably because they changed to code and now allowed Kerbals to take their helmets off.

It's fairly clear that IRL an oxygenated atmosphere can only exist if the oxygen is constantly being renewed. (Here on Earth, plants and algae and such do that job.) Otherwise it will find something to bond with and react itself back out of the atmosphere.

Edited February 12, 2021 by mikegarrison

[JIMMY_the_DOG]

15 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

It's fairly clear that IRL an oxygenated atmosphere can only exist if the oxygen is constantly being renewed

Whoever said kerbals had to breath perfectly untoxic air?

[YNM]

7 hours ago, JIMMY_the_DOG said:

Turns out laythe is well outside the estimated, and yes it is estimated so it is not true/perfect.

...

so it could be to far for substantial tidal heating, but it could still help, but now I think that the high salt content is what's keeping the water liquid.

Wikipedia shows tidal heating rate equation as well. (for roche limit.)

Amount of power you need would be black-body radiation of the melting point of water (237.15 K) or brine solution (apparently the lowest you can go with NaCl is 216 K / -21 deg C) at the surface standing water radius.

[kerbiloid]

That's no water!